Top 15 QBs according to Peter Queen of SI

[poptart]

Rated by him based on their combination of resume and immediate bright future.


1. P. Manning
2. T. Brady
3. S. McNair
4. B. Favre
5. T. Green
6. J. Plummer
7. D. Culpepper
8. C. Pennington
9. D. McNabb
10. M. Vick
11. J. Garcia
12. M. Hasslebeck
13. M. Bulger
14. B. Johnson
15. M. Brunell


I see Rich Gannon is nowhere to be found.

....and Jake the Fake is #6. :rolleyes:


Slow and painful DEATH to Peter Queen.


Discuss....?

[doublee]

Yeah, Plummer is definitely overrated here. He still has yet to show he can play consistently over a 16 game stretch. Yes, he played well last year, but Danny Kanell got the starts against any of the decent defenses they played last year which were not many.

I think I would rank McNabb slightly ahead of Culpepper and Pennington as well just due to his leadership skills and he has been a consistent winner over the past four seasons. Pennington has yet to play a full season and show he has staying power and Culpepper still has not shown he can be a consistent winner a-la Favre, Brady, McNabb, and McNair.

I'd say Gannon is not rated as he missed most of last season and is a question mark coming into the season.

[Bleedbluenwhite]

How I'd put Vick higher if for no other reason than he is younger and HAS a future.
Hey I love FARVE but how long does he have 2 maybe 3 more seasons?
what about Fielder?

[poptart]

Originally posted by doublee
I'd say Gannon is not rated as he missed most of last season and is a question mark coming into the season.

Queen's rating is based on two things.

1. Resume

Rich Gannon's resume takes a back seat to only Favre and Brady on the list, IMO.

You might place Manning, McNair and perhaps McNabb on equal ground with him in that regard......on RESUME.



2. Immediate bright future

Seeing as how Rich's RESUME is very impressive, then P-Queen must view Rich's immediate bright future as total crap.

Sorry, I can't buy into that.

Gannon is healthy and the O-line is beefed up.

I see no dark clouds for him in Oakland.

It looks to me like he's poised to have a good year in Oakland, unless of course they cut him and decide to go with Collins.

Could happen, I dunno.

[Marc]

Yeah, Plummer doesn't even belong on that list. Horrible. And don't you think Manning at least needs to get his team to the Super Bowl before he is No. 1? My top-five:

1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Favre
4. McNair
5. Culpepper

[KevinBeane]

Well, Gannon is 60 years old, so future potential is out the window. And past history...what, three or so pretty good years with great stats, with HOF wide receivers, culminating in one SB blowout loss where he threw 5 or 6 picks? I would've left him off too. I agree Plummer shouldn't be there.

As far as my own homerism, I PROMISE (write it down) that Brad Johnson will have a better year, in both wins and stats, then Matt Hassleback. They should be flipped on the list.

[poptart]

Originally posted by KevinBeane
Well, Gannon is 60 years old, so future potential is out the window.

Immediate bright future.

He's not too old to play well this year, IMO.....even at age 60, or whatever the hell he is.

Is he REALLY 60....?

Damn man, I better look it up myself. :confused:


Hall of Famers Rice and Brown were both past their prime when Rich was putting up his numbers and kickin' tail in Oakland.

[doublee]

Gannon is 38 which for QBs is on the precipice of the next year could be his last. I have to agree with Kevin in that his resume is not that impressive. Yes, he has had a great run from 1999-2002 but that is about all you can point to for his career. It is hard to gauge a QBs immediate future when he is coming off a major shoulder injury.

[MountaineerDave]

Coupla things:

PQ has Favre at #4 and it hurt him not to place Favre at #1. PQ has an apartment in Brett Favre's jock. No kidding. I swear it. I think he mentions Favre in EVERY F***in' column he writes. And if he doesn't, he feels guilty for it and fits him into his blather about Mary Beth's softball tournaments.

Also, PQ is spending time in the Plummer's pants because he knows the Greatest QB to Ever Give Him an Interview is going to retire... sometime. And, he'll have to get a new jock apartment, and for some fool reason, has decided that the lamest ass joke of a starting QB in the NFL is the place to go. Whatever.

Of PQ, we know this: He don't know quarterbacks.

So... We shouldn't be surprised that he's overrated some guys (Plummer, Garcia, Bulger) and underrated others (Bledsoe, Delhomme, Feidler).

I agree with the omission of Gannon, however. I don't think his immediate future is that bright (I'd start Collins, in fact, were I Norv Turner) and I think his overall resume is that of a journeyman, at best. One great year does not a career make. That said, I'd say Brad Johnson doesn't make my list, either.

Dave

[Noon]

But if you put Gannon on the list based on that criteria, you have to put Warner on for the same reason. Impressive three-four year span, no real future promise. I don't have a problem with leaving either one of those guys off the list.

Gannon, unfortunately, had his legacy cut down by the Chiefs management refusing to drop their pride and name him as the starter when he was with the team. It seemed like for three years in a row he was the better quarterback, but because Elvis had been annointed the king, Gannon, no matter how good he preformed in the game, was always going to be a backup. He could be looking at six or seven real good years, instead of three.

[poptart]

Originally posted by MountaineerDave
....and I think his (Gannon's) overall resume is that of a journeyman, at best. One great year does not a career make.


Total B.S.

Four straight years from 1999-2003 Rich Gannon lit up the league, averaging almost 4,000 yds a season, 25 tds and a 93.0 QB rating.



Journeyman at best....? :rolleyes:

[Anthony]

No way McNabb in the top 10 - not with the Eagles ranking in the second division (to borrow an old baseball term) of the NFL in passing offense every single year he has started, plus the fact that he has never either completed 60 per cent of his passes or averaged seven yards per attempt in any season in his entire NFL career.

Rush was definitely right about one of the things he said last fall: McNabb is overrated - even more overrated than Krispy Kreme Donuts in fact!

[buckeyefan78]

Good to see you bashing Favre and Plummer Dave. All is right with the world huh?...LOL.

My top 5...

1. Brady
2. McNair
3. Manning
4. Pennington
5. Favre

Guys I find totally overrated...

1. McNabb
2. Vick ( between him and McNabb, it is enough to make you sick, everytime they mention one of their names in the media, they should have to add at the end " both are still two rings short of Tom Brady)

Guys I think have had the benefit of playing in a good system...

1. Gannon
2. Garcia ( although we'll see this year)
3. Bulger

wouldn't call them overrated at a high degree, but at times, their skills can be exaggerated at times in their systems.

[Ego_Maniac]

Regardless of how they have played, there are some QBs who I'd rate as ROLE PLAYERS: Tom Brady, Chad Pennington, Jake Plummer ... I think I might have Jeff Garcia in that mold too. Fieldler and Feeley (whoever they are) in Miami seem to be the prototype. You can add Trent Green to the list.

After the ROLE PLAYERS, true talent takes over. How someone rates them is of little concern to me. The very best QB in the NFL has got to be Peyton Manning. You can scan the threads to see that I'm a fan of Tim Couch's talent. Culpepper belongs in EVERYONE'S top ten ... McNair, McNabb, and Vick are talents that deserve consideration.

Brett Farve DOES NOT BELONG on the list of top 15 quarterbacks. It is the twist of irony that NOT the young have to prove themselves worthy, but the veteran. We all, however, believe in his capacity.

[Marc]

Brett Farve DOES NOT BELONG on the list of top 15 quarterbacks. It is the twist of irony that NOT the young have to prove themselves worthy, but the veteran. We all, however, believe in his capacity.
In ever-lasting memorable the words of John McEnroe, you cannot be SERIOUS! I don't care what you say, but the man who led the ENTIRE NFL in touchdown passes while also reaching a career-high in completion percentage is a top-15 QB. He may not be the top guy anymore, but he is top-five, in fact. Top-five ALL-TIME. Look at the stats, he's done it all: Super Bowls, MVPs, late comebacks, the streak. Get real, man.

[KevinBeane]

Ah, it must be football season. It's like clockwork. Marc posts measured, middle-of-the-road opinions on everything, expressed very calmly and plaintively....until someone starts raggin' on Brett Favre. Then he releases the hounds and becomes like the rest of us. :)

[Bleedbluenwhite]

yeah Farve is top five in any list.

[MountaineerDave]

top five in resume does not equal top five in immediate bright future, and I, for one, think the immediate future is none too bright in the land cheese. Hence, I wouldn't put him in the top five of this list.

There are two criteria. And, while I haven't read the PQ column from Monday yet, I'm assuming an equal weight on the two criteria... so he wouldn't crack my top ten.

Dave

[buckeyefan78]

Hey Dave...

Favre called. He wants to know if you'll meet him and Plummer down at your local high school field and YOU CAN show them how it's done.

Just bustin' your chops Dave. These consistant bashing posts of the same guy/team has a downside though: you'll turn into me !!!!!!!

Eeekkkk !

Seriously though, I still sneak Favre in at #5 if for only one reason and one alone: he has a ring.

I know, I do recall the last play against Philly last year Dave, but when it's all on the line, I'll take a guy who has gotten it done atleast once but messed up over a guy who has NEVER gotten it done for the trophy. Perhaps a sign of the times there. We are getting a little low on great qb's with rings or magical appeal ( Montana, Young, Elway, Marino ).

And no one say Vick either in that class. My head will explode......

KA-BOOM !

[MountaineerDave]

I never said that Favre wasn't a great quarterback IN HIS DAY. It's just that his day is winding down. It's 8.30, 9 o'clock at night, and curfew's at 10.30, so...

Plummer never had a day. And never will. Not a great QB, never will be. Fun to watch at Arizona State, but an unmitigated disaster as a professional starter. There is nothing, not even a Super Bowl victory by Denver, that will change my opinion on this matter. It'll be the defense and the running game that wins Denver its football games this year, NOT Jake Plummer.

And, once more: equal weight to immediate bright future and succeeding in winning but ONE Super Bowl, I'm not sure he cracks my Top Five.

BTW... I take Immediate Bright Future to mean Deep Playoff Run, possible SB appearance, which is why I count Favre among many others as not being in the top five.
1. Brady (resume is tops for current players, has a fairly bright immediate future with a strong offensive team, and well-developed defense)
2. Manning (resume is all stats, but showed some reason for having a bright future)
3. McNabb (resume is shakier than the above two, but there's some reason for hope in Philly, and most of it actually starts with Mr McNabb)
4. McNair (resume is highly underrated, but his immediate bright future is dimming quickly, this may be his Last Chance)
5. Bledsoe (resume is indisputable, despite his casting off from NE and a crappy '03; call me crazy, but if Buffalo can knock off NE, they are contenders for that DPR, and possibly a SB appearance)

Now, maybe I should go read PQ's MMQB so I can relate to this argument from his pov.

Dave

[MountaineerDave]

Okay, I've read the part I needed to read, and all I have to say is:What a load of crap. I mean, really, Jeff "it's a rat" Garcia!

This guy is the most overrated pile of puke on the football field! I continue to fail to understand how ANYONE can see anything redeeming about him. He can't read a defense. Plain and simple. Doesn't know how and can't learn. He can't throw the deep ball particularly well (though it was never a big part of the Mariucci arsenal, anyway) and his scrambling around like a chicken with his head cut off is one of his least likable qualities.

Ugh.

And, PQ wrote this Winslow ass-kissing bullcrap AFTER Winslow's first play as a pro resulted in a 15-yard penalty and from what I heard (though never saw the replay) might have gotten him ejected from a normal game!

PQ is such a flipping shill. I hate him.

Dave

[buckeyefan78]

I see that quote you have there Dave from Noon...lol...Go ahead and laugh all you want, but Matlock is one hell of a show...LOL.

I think McNair's time is running low myself. Makes me sad. I like him best out of the qb's remaining in the NFL that are up there on the chart.

Bledsoe is a bit iffy. Which Drew will show up this year? The good, the bad, or the ugly? Again, a big guy with a strong arm is always something a good coach can get alot out of though.

[Marc]

Kevin: well said. It proves I am, afterall, human. :)

Dave: McNair has a much dimmer future than Favre. Favre has a better running game and better receivers than McNair, by a long shot. Oh, and on Super Bowl rings, Favre: yes, McNair: no. Plus, McNair has been banged up just as much, if not more so, than Favre in recent years. So how does he make your list and not Favre?

I am still in disbelief your list included DREW BLEDSOE and not Brett Favre. That guy is as inconsistent as John Kerry on Iraq. He is as old as Favre with less talent around him. Unbelievable.

[Kornbix]

How do you put Plummer ahead of Vick\? I mean it's a good list and all but Plummer is not that good also Brady should be one Favre 2 and Peyton 3

[Ego_Maniac]

Originally posted by Marc
In ever-lasting memorable the words of John McEnroe, you cannot be SERIOUS! I don't care what you say, but the man who led the ENTIRE NFL in touchdown passes while also reaching a career-high in completion percentage is a top-15 QB. He may not be the top guy anymore, but he is top-five, in fact. Top-five ALL-TIME. Look at the stats, he's done it all: Super Bowls, MVPs, late comebacks, the streak. Get real, man.


Oh, but I am serious. Brett Farve LOOKS like a role player! I've seen him GIVE away games cuz the PACK got no game anymore. Green Bay, like I've told you in the past, features a WILKIE-ZONE offense ... and this type charter isn't compatible with the 'game' in the NFL. The Packers, like Farve, will be marginal, AT BEST!


Hey, don't sweat the bullets .... The league is, after all, ultimately interested (only) in the condition of the disciplined spectacle. Brett Farve will function (spectacularly?) only if the 'conditioned spectacle' will permit it.

[poptart]

Originally posted by Marc
Dave:
I am still in disbelief your list included DREW BLEDSOE and not Brett Favre. That guy is as inconsistent as John Kerry on Iraq. He is as old as Favre with less talent around him. Unbelievable.

No doubt, that is just out of order.

[gconnhokiebird]

where the crap was Drew fricking Bledsoe on that list, I know it is a future list but I think he will have a great season in that system. Mike Vick is not really overrated b/c we know what he is capable of. mcnabb and culpepper are a bit overrated though. seeing Trent Green at #5 makes me sick. Jake the Snake was a great qb b/c he could do anything but i think he is still pretty good.

Top 15 as of NOW!

1. Bret Farve
2. Peyton Manning
3. Chad Pennington
4. Steve Mcnair
5. Matt Hasselback
6. Drew Bledsoe
7. Jake Plummer
8. Mike Vick
9. Donavan Mcnabb
10. Jay Feidler
11. Tom Brady
12. Jeff Garcia
13. Daunte Culpepper
14.Mark Brunell
15. Kordell Stewart(just kidding)

[gconnhokiebird]

acully now that i think about it i put vick at #4... Go Hokies


#1 future qb is Drew Henson he is going to be great.

[doublee]

How come you claim Donovan is overrated yet still rank him number nine? You are nuts if you think Vick is number four, of course I am sure there is no Va-Tech bias there either. He is right where he belongs considering he has yet to play a full 16 game season and has only ever put up mediocre numbers as a passer. Jay Fiedler is not one of the top ten QBs in the league.

[Dublin Mike]

I wouldn't say Vick is a top 10 QB. Maybe athlete, but he has yet to show the passing touch to make him anything other than a scrambler.

Guys, Favre did lead the league in TDs last year, ahead of even Tom "the media says Im the next Montana" Brady. As for who's #1, I really dunno. Im sorta torn between Montana and Elway....

Oh, you mean this isn't an all time thing??? My bad. :P

[Bleedbluenwhite]

Hey, I'm a Miami fan, but Feilder in the top ten? No way. Brady at 11? Sure, just find me anyone who would make the Feilder for Brady trade.

[gconnhokiebird]

Originally posted by Bleedbluenwhite
Hey, I'm a Miami fan, but Feilder in the top ten? No way. Brady at 11? Sure, just find me anyone who would make the Feilder for Brady trade.

yeah i understand I just don't like Tom Brady, I just don't think he is that great. I think Jay Feildler will step up and have a better year than most people think. I put Vick in the top 10 b/c i know what he is capable of. He will take the Falcons to the playoffs. How can you say we don't know what he can do after carrying the falcons on his back, into GREEN BAY! and winning. Has anyone else ever done that? than he gets hurt and the falcons are crap, what does that tell ya?

[Bleedbluenwhite]

Hey I hope your right about Feildler, but I'd still rather have Brady.
You're right on Vick, we haven't even see close to what this guy is capable of.

[doublee]

Brady may not put up the greatest numbers, but he has 2 rings which trumps anything that Fiedler or Vick have ever done. His numbers are top ten caliber numbers and the fact that he wins big games and is on the reigning Super Bowl Champion pushes him up towards the top 5 QBs in the league. Ultimately QBs are judged on how many rings they win. I can accept Vick being ranked at or near 10th based on his percieved upside as a passer. I am not entirely convinced he is ever going to be a great passer in the NFL.

gconn, you are the first person I have heard say that Fiedler is going to have a better year than most people think. Most of what I have heard on TV and the radio is that Miami may very well have the worst offense in the league. With no running game to speak of I will be surprised if Fielder makes it through the season intact.

[5280]

This would be my top ten list.

1. P. Manning

2. Favre

3. McNabb

4. Brady

5. Culpepper

6. McNair

7. Vick

8. Pennington

9. Plummer

10. Hasslebeck

Plummer may have been a little high on Queen's list but in no way is he a bad QB. Even with Clinton Portis the Bronco's offense came to a screaching halt without Plummer last year. He fits in perfect in Shannahan's offensive scheme. He has all the tools and just needs to get a little more comfortable in the pocket. I wouldn't pick him on my fantasy team but I'm glad the Bronco's got their hands on him. I don't understand the Plummer bashing I thought he proved himself last year. Whatever :rolleyes:

[Noon]

Man, Trent Green is getting absolutely no love from this board. The guy threw for over 4,000 yards last season to go along with his 24 touchdowns with just 12 INTs. Priest Holmes takes a lot of the pressure off of him, but you don't get a QB rating over 90 when you're an average quarterback, especially when you have the kind of "quality" receivers that the Chiefs have employed the last few seasons.

Over the past two years, he's thrown 50 touchdowns with a rating of 92.6 both years. It's not his fault the defense couldn't stop a paraplegic from running for 150 yards.

[5280]

You got a point Noon. I think Green just gets overshadowed by Priest and a dominating O-line. But.......... I still don't put him in the top ten.:)

[MountaineerDave]

Since I last posted, these are my points in general, made when/wherever appropriate.

1. Bledsoe's inconsistency depends wholly on his protection. Keep him clean, and he will kill defenses. This is true for most QBs.
2. I rank Bledsoe's immediate future brighter than Favre's because
a) I don't regard the Packer's receivers very highly
b) I don't regard the Packers' d very highly
c) The Packers have a tougher division, now that the Dolphins have given up completely on this season.
3. Fiedler has no running game, and he's a QB who HAS to have a running game to keep him alive. Fiedler, while I actually respect him more than your average football fan, cannot win football games with Minor as his RB, and Booker and Chambers (each role player WRs) as his main targets. And, Fiedler DOESN'T compare favorably to Tom Brady in any way shape or form.
4. I think this is McNair's last hurrah, to be sure, but I think Chris Brown will be the running back that he needs to be to keep the Titans involved in postseason hunt.
5. We know these things about Michael Vick:
a) He can run like the wind.
b) He can throw a football through a brick wall.
c) He can't read a defense to save his life.
d) He has, at best, questionable accuracy.
e) He may very well be injury prone at this level.
6. Green is Kurt Warner, only a couple years later. And before the injuries. For those who aren't fully aware, Warner is a flash-in-the-pan fraud whose time is done, and whose retirement will likely be announced in the next 6 weeks. Oh, Warner also benefited greatly from an ingenious system that utilized his talented running back in such a way as to give his offense a sense of invincibility. Take away that RB, or throw in a full-of-himself creator of ingenious offense to call the plays, and the offense is just another Air Coryell... all gussied up to flop when the cards are on the table.
7. Anyone who thinks Plummer should even start in this league... well, let's just say that his starting is evidence of the thinning of talent that parity and expansion have wrought.
8. Bledsoe ahead of Favre, while I do consider it to be somewhat true, was really thrown in to irritate Marc. I can't think of anyone besides those two to fill the Top Five. Remember the criteria: immediate bright future/resume. Bledsoe's resume, while recently marked, is awfully good. Favre's resume, while recently marked, is also awfully good. His possession of a ring doesn't mean is necessarily better (he is, Marc, take a breath!). Would anyone suggest that Tom Brady is twice as good as, for instance, Dan Marino. Or, to go with contemporaries, that Montana was 4 times as good as Marino. Hey, I worship Montana and despise Marino, but the difference between them as great QBs... not that much.
9. And, finally, because someone was blasting Brady's numbers... not that dissimilar to a certain Mr Bledsoe, comparing first years at the helms of their teams... Brady had a couple fewer TDs, many fewer INTs, yards are darn near equivalent. And Bledsoe had Martin to give the ball to. Brady has had... Antowain Smith? Definitely not a CMartin class running back.

Dave

[doublee]

Dave, I had some similar thoughts about Green. I think a lot of 'Insiders' view Trent Green as a product of Vermeil's offense more than anything else. With that being the case Green's numbers pail in comparison to Warner's when he was on top. During Warner's three year run (1999-2001) he threw a total of 98 TDs, 53 INTs, completed 67% of his passes, and 12,612 yards. During Green's three years in KC he has thrown 67 TDs, 49 INTs, 60.2 completion percentage, and 11,512 yards. Ultimately, the perception is that one could drop just about anyone into that offense and they could probably throw for upwards of 4,000 yards and 25 TDs every season. Plus, Green has not shown an ability to win a big game when they need him to.

[gconnhokiebird]

Originally posted by MountaineerDave
Since I last posted, these are my points in general, made when/wherever appropriate.

1. Bledsoe's inconsistency depends wholly on his protection. Keep him clean, and he will kill defenses. This is true for most QBs.
2. I rank Bledsoe's immediate future brighter than Favre's because
a) I don't regard the Packer's receivers very highly
b) I don't regard the Packers' d very highly
c) The Packers have a tougher division, now that the Dolphins have given up completely on this season.
3. Fiedler has no running game, and he's a QB who HAS to have a running game to keep him alive. Fiedler, while I actually respect him more than your average football fan, cannot win football games with Minor as his RB, and Booker and Chambers (each role player WRs) as his main targets. And, Fiedler DOESN'T compare favorably to Tom Brady in any way shape or form.
4. I think this is McNair's last hurrah, to be sure, but I think Chris Brown will be the running back that he needs to be to keep the Titans involved in postseason hunt.
5. We know these things about Michael Vick:
a) He can run like the wind.
b) He can throw a football through a brick wall.
c) He can't read a defense to save his life.
d) He has, at best, questionable accuracy.
e) He may very well be injury prone at this level.
6. Green is Kurt Warner, only a couple years later. And before the injuries. For those who aren't fully aware, Warner is a flash-in-the-pan fraud whose time is done, and whose retirement will likely be announced in the next 6 weeks. Oh, Warner also benefited greatly from an ingenious system that utilized his talented running back in such a way as to give his offense a sense of invincibility. Take away that RB, or throw in a full-of-himself creator of ingenious offense to call the plays, and the offense is just another Air Coryell... all gussied up to flop when the cards are on the table.
7. Anyone who thinks Plummer should even start in this league... well, let's just say that his starting is evidence of the thinning of talent that parity and expansion have wrought.
8. Bledsoe ahead of Favre, while I do consider it to be somewhat true, was really thrown in to irritate Marc. I can't think of anyone besides those two to fill the Top Five. Remember the criteria: immediate bright future/resume. Bledsoe's resume, while recently marked, is awfully good. Favre's resume, while recently marked, is also awfully good. His possession of a ring doesn't mean is necessarily better (he is, Marc, take a breath!). Would anyone suggest that Tom Brady is twice as good as, for instance, Dan Marino. Or, to go with contemporaries, that Montana was 4 times as good as Marino. Hey, I worship Montana and despise Marino, but the difference between them as great QBs... not that much.
9. And, finally, because someone was blasting Brady's numbers... not that dissimilar to a certain Mr Bledsoe, comparing first years at the helms of their teams... Brady had a couple fewer TDs, many fewer INTs, yards are darn near equivalent. And Bledsoe had Martin to give the ball to. Brady has had... Antowain Smith? Definitely not a CMartin class running back.

Dave

no offense but no one has time to read a post that long or you are a extreme loser.

[doublee]

You know implying that a mod of the boards is an extreme loser for writing a well thought out argument on the topic is not a good way to last on a message board where a certain degree of maturity seems to be expected.

[gconnhokiebird]

sorry i just don't have time

[doublee]

That is fine just don't call him an extreme loser that is all.

[poptart]

Originally posted by gconnhokiebird
no offense but no one has time to read a post that long or you are a extreme loser.

:D

Bahahahaha

I think somebody needs a trip to the penalty box.

[Dublin Mike]

Or a good swift kick in the arse. Which is probably coming.

[MountaineerDave]

gconnhokiebird--
In another thread, I noted that your namecalling is cause for dismissal from the board.

All the others have duly noted you were out of line, so I don't need to.

Please do take some time out of your incredibly busy schedule, however, to read this passage from the Community Guidelines (http://www.sports-central.org/other/community_guidelines.php)

4. No personal attacks or insults are allowed.

In order to maintain a positive atmosphere, no personal attacks or insults will be tolerated. While discussions may become heated, there is never an excuse to result to attacks or insults. Violators will be warned and potentially banned.

You have been duly warned TWICE now.

Tread carefully going forward.

Thanks. Sorry if this post is too long for you.

Dave

[Marc]

Dave is right. Drop the attacks, immaturity, and blatant posts with no substance or explanation behind them. We're not here to babysit. Either bring yourself up to our standards are go find a more suitable board ... like ESPN.

Originally posted by Ego_Maniac
Oh, but I am serious. Brett Farve LOOKS like a role player!
You don't happen to be legally blind, do you?

[Anthony]

Omigod - I come back from Spyware Hell (which totally disabled my computer - and that's why I haven't gotten on the site since Sunday) and find this! (Downloaded a fix and ran it, so hopefully I've gotten rid of it).

But I'll jump in anyway; please, no namecalling - at least not to fellow community members [on the other hand, if you want to go on the baseball board and call Larry Bowa an incompetent bum and say he should be fired for thoroughly butchering the talent Ed Wade has given him this year, then by all means do it - although I just beat you to it!.:) ]

[Ego_Maniac]

Originally posted by Marc
...


You don't happen to be legally blind, do you?


Hahahaha ... you twisted ....

I think it fairly obvious that there is LITTLE that Brett Farve can do to propel his team ... that is to a championship caliber. I'd characterize his play, or that of his team, as one that promotes Tampa Bay's 'game' simply because they do not have a 'game' of their own (perhaps THIS example is best used in the -past- tense).

Brett Farve IS NOT AN IMPACT PLAYER anymore ... he is a LAME DUCK!

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Ego_Maniac
Hahahaha ... you twisted ....

I think it fairly obvious that there is LITTLE that Brett Farve can do to propel his team ... that is to a championship caliber. I'd characterize his play, or that of his team, as one that promotes Tampa Bay's 'game' simply because they do not have a 'game' of their own (perhaps THIS example is best used in the -past- tense).

Brett Farve IS NOT AN IMPACT PLAYER anymore ... he is a LAME DUCK!


A "lame duck" who will bandage his leg and hobble up to the podium at Canton the moment he is eligible under NFL by-laws to do so!

[poptart]

Originally posted by Anthony
Omigod - I come back from Spyware Hell (which totally disabled my computer - ..... ]

Lay off the pr0n sites, 'tony.


Just sayin'.


;)

[Marc]

Brett Farve IS NOT AN IMPACT PLAYER anymore ... he is a LAME DUCK!
If you lead the league in touchdowns, you ARE an impact player! Err... Is Favre the vocal point of the team? No, Green is, but he is still the heart and soul of them. He isn't quite as good as '96 or so, but he is not much worse, he can still throw it with the best of them.

[savebykabi]

Originally posted by poptart

1. P. Manning
2. T. Brady
3. S. McNair
4. B. Favre
5. T. Green
6. J. Plummer
7. D. Culpepper
8. C. Pennington
9. D. McNabb
10. M. Vick
11. J. Garcia
12. M. Hasslebeck
13. M. Bulger
14. B. Johnson
15. M. Brunell
DEATH to Peter Queen.




this is total screwy. Here's what I think the list should be:

1. P. Manning
2. T. Brady
3. S. McNair
4. B. Favre
5. C. Pennington
6. M. Vick
7. D. Culpepper
8. T. Green
9. D. McNabb
10. M. Hasslebeck
11. J. Garcia
12. J. Plummer
13. M. Bulger
14. M. Brunell
15. B. Johnson

Looks better to me.

[Kornbix]

that was a good list savebykabi...even though I think you can put Culpepper up a few spots and Favre up a notch

[ESP0704]

Dave, tell us what you really think about Peter Queen ...
Gee, if he's setting up housekeeping in Brett Favre's jock, then what must you think of me and Steve McNair? I mean, it's pretty roomy in here even for a 300-pound ex-rugby player, but I've got a wife and kid.
I wonder if I can build an addition onto McNair's jock without anyone noticing.
All joking aside, I'm not enamored with those QBs who live on the short passing game (are you listening, Messrs. Brady and Gannon?). There are any number of quarterbacks that could have matched or nearly matched Gannon's output in Oakland during that 1999-2003 window.
By the way, even though I put Brady in the same category as Gannon, I think Brady's much better because he is a lot better than Gannon at taking what he wants from a defense, as opposed to taking what the defense is giving him. And he doesn't make as many mistakes as Gannon.
I've got a soft spot for Marc Bulger because I saw him throw for almost 300 yards in a high school game. I might put him in my top 10, but not top 5. Seriously, I think Bulger can be top 5 someday, if he survives the next few years with a rebuilding Rams' team.
In defense of McNabb, he has been saddled with a weak receiving corps. But he's one of those intangible guys with good physical tools. But this is a key year, now that he has T.O.; he could solidify his HOF credentials, or he could go crashing off into obscurity.
My top 5 list:
1) Peyton Manning (you thought I was going to say McNair, didn't you? I was, but P-Man's playoff run was too spectacular to ignore)
2) McNair
3) Favre (He's still got a lot left, as evidenced by his statistics with a team that wasn't as good as it was five years ago)
4) Brady (I know it seems like I don't like Brady; I just don't think he's better than the three listed above, and a lot of people do. Truth is: He's one of the best big-game hunters in football history)
5) Culpepper (big, good feet, great arm, with a decent team around him. He's going to be fun to watch this year.

Here's my top 5 list for 2009 (in no particular order)
1) Byron Leftwich
2) Ben Roethlisberger
3) Kyle Boller
4) Marc Bulger
5) Tom Brady

[Dublin Mike]

Good call ESP0704 on Roethlisberger. He will be a stud in a couple of years.

[MountaineerDave]

I'm a Steelers fan, so my adoration of Roethlisberger is colored in some black and gold. I was a Leftwich guy because he came from Marshall, the #2 school in my home state.

When it comes down to it, I feel this way about your list for 2009, esp:
If only...

Roethlisberger is the one guy in the league right now who I feel will one day be compared to a certain Brett Favre. Sure, I take my shots at the magical #4, because I disagree that he's got that much left, and no one else seems to want to call him on his failures and mistakes, but... Big Ben could be Favre in 2009.

Leftwich, if he moved better, could be sort of a McNair/Culpepper type. I figure in the end he'll tend toward Marino, though. Whatever I mean by that.

I like Boller, although Anthony thinks he's a loss already.

I hope for Bulger... he went to WVU after all, but he shows in the NFL some of the problems that plagued him as a Mountaineer: bad decision-making under pressure, sometimes extreme aloofness that borders on apathy.

Interesting that you spend a couple posts noting how much you're not a fan of Brady, and he's the oldest of the guys you've got on your list. Looking for some longevity from him, eh?

Dave

[savebykabi]

The quality tough guy QB that nobody talks about but is a pretty darn good player:

David Carr

[MountaineerDave]

Good call. Nobody talks about him, but he's got decent talent around him. By '09, they all may be clicking. Carr-Johnson-Hollings (or Davis) may be '09's Holy Offensive Trinity.

Or not.
Texas has struggled getting their o-line established and in place.

Dave

[doublee]

I don't know Houston made a vast improvement in O-Line play last season. They went from surrendering 76 sacks down to 36 and they improved their rushing yards per average from 3.2 to a respectable 3.9. Rushing TDs went from 6 to 14 and yardage went up by 300 on relatively the same number of carries. While it is not great it at least is a sign Houston is moving in the right direction in terms of its line play. The sack numbers would have been lower had Carr not gotten hurt. The most encouraging thing has to be that Carr went from taking 76 sacks in '02 to only taking 15 in 12 games last season. Tony Banks and Dave Ragone accounted for 21 sacks in just four games. The additions of Mark Bruener and Todd Wade should help in this area. I think if Carr and the line stay healthy this could be his breakout year in Houston.

[MountaineerDave]

The O line was better, but not great. You note that Ragone and Banks were sacked 21 times in four games. Five a game? Not good. Not at all. You allow Ragone to take a sack he shouldn't, but Banks?

Carr learned that throwing the ball away was his friend, something he didn't really know his first season, hence the record.

Bruener, IF (Big If) he can stay healthy will help. I'm not fond of Wade, but he's better than swiss cheese, I guess.

Dave

[5280]

Where's Palmer and Eli on that 2009 list? Boller is never going to be able to open up in the Raven's offensive scheme. They're going to draft for defense and won a superbowl with Trent Dilfer. Why would they change anything?

Marc Bulger? I think the Ram's have no where to go but down. Torry Holt is the stud in St. Louis. Even though Bruce is reaching his twilight years, both those recievers make him look better than he is. If the Rams aren't successful this year, Martz is gone and I would imagine Bulger wouldn't be too far behind.

Palmer has the weapons around him right now to be successful. He sat out his first year, which was a good move and I think he'll be around for a long time.

New York is going to bend over backwards for Eli. He'll have all the oppurtunity and with his bloodline there is no way he won't thrive in another year or so.

[MountaineerDave]

Fine points. I hope more for Mr Palmer than I do for E Manning...

Dave

[ESP0704]

Originally posted by 5280
Where's Palmer and Eli on that 2009 list? Boller is never going to be able to open up in the Raven's offensive scheme. They're going to draft for defense and won a superbowl with Trent Dilfer. Why would they change anything?



The Ravens' offensive scheme has been the offshoot of not having the kind of QB with the skill to pull off a more wide-open vertical passing game that Certified Offensive Genius Brian Billick is just itching to install. Boller has the tools to be the triggerman in that kind of an offense. Billick wants to open things up, as evidenced by the fact that he tried so hard to get Terrell Owens in the offseason.
Eli might get on there and bump Bulger (picking him was largely a personal thing, as I explained earlier), but I predicted last year in a Sports-Central column that Boller would be better than Palmer, and I'm sticking by that one...

[Anthony]

The problem with Boller is that he didn't win in college - and sometimes that can be a telling clue that someone isn't going to make it in the NFL (people said the same thing about Tim Couch when he came out, and it looks like they were right - and if you're old enough to remember Randy Dean, same thing there too).

[ESP0704]

Yeah, but John Elway, Terry Bradshaw (see, Anthony, I told ya I was old), and probably a couple of other guys I can't think of right now (probably senility setting in) didn't win in college either.
I'm not saying the ability to win in college isn't a telling detail, but that's something a decent QB can't overcome ...

[Anthony]

Big difference - weren't Elway and Bradshaw both the #1 overall pick the year they came out? (Boller wasn't). And while I don't know what Stanford's record was off the top of my head in the games Elway started, I bet it wasn't anywhere near as bad as the 14-26 Boller went at Cal (and what was Bradshaw's record as a starter for Louisiana Tech? Do you know?). And did Elway or Bradshaw complete 47 per cent of their passes in college, as Boller did?

Boller reminds me a lot of Akili Smith - one decent, not spectacular, year in college, then an NFL bust.

[doublee]

Yesterday on either the Dan Patrick Show or the Colin Cowherd Show they likened Boller to Mike Mamula a guy who blew everyone away at the combine with his physical skills that he conned folks into believing he was a future All Pro.

Guys like Elway and Couch may not have won any National or Conference Titles, but they succeeded in elevating their programs to respectibility on a national level. Both guys took their teams out of the gutter in their conferences and made them into bowl caliber teams the instant they walked on the field. The same cannot really be said about Kyle Boller.

Couch's failures in the NFL have as much to do with not having enough talent around him to succeed as anything else. I still think he could turn into a good pro on the right team.

[MountaineerDave]

Boller to Mamula comparisons are ridiculous for a number of reasons. But, from either Cowherd or Patrick, you'll get stupid such comparisons...

Boller MAY have been the result of the success of the system that Tedford runs. Indeed, the Akili Smith comparison is exceedingly apt: Jeff Tedford was the OC at Oregon in Smith's good season.

I don't get the impression that Boller's development isn't on the right path, however. Maybe I'm missing something, but his greatest detriment is the Ravens continued refusal to go out and get a WR, ANY WR, nevermind TO.

They have a looks-to-be-great TE, however, and finding him in the mismatch will be Boller's primary job. Shouldn't be that difficult.

Dave

[doublee]

Yeah, Todd Heap is the only guy that really scares anyone in the Ravens passing game. Problem is they keep going out and getting retreads like Marcus Robinson and Kevin Johnson as wideouts and none of their draft picks seem to pan out.

[Herbstreit]

Originally posted by MountaineerDave
Coupla things:

PQ has Favre at #4 and it hurt him not to place Favre at #1. PQ has an apartment in Brett Favre's jock. No kidding. I swear it. I think he mentions Favre in EVERY F***in' column he writes. And if he doesn't, he feels guilty for it and fits him into his blather about Mary Beth's softball tournaments.

Also, PQ is spending time in the Plummer's pants because he knows the Greatest QB to Ever Give Him an Interview is going to retire... sometime. And, he'll have to get a new jock apartment, and for some fool reason, has decided that the lamest ass joke of a starting QB in the NFL is the place to go. Whatever.

Of PQ, we know this: He don't know quarterbacks.

So... We shouldn't be surprised that he's overrated some guys (Plummer, Garcia, Bulger) and underrated others (Bledsoe, Delhomme, Feidler).

I agree with the omission of Gannon, however. I don't think his immediate future is that bright (I'd start Collins, in fact, were I Norv Turner) and I think his overall resume is that of a journeyman, at best. One great year does not a career make. That said, I'd say Brad Johnson doesn't make my list, either.

Dave Delhomme deserves to be in there somewhere!

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Herbstreit
Delhomme deserves to be in there somewhere!


After one barely-above-mediocre season?

Let's see what he does this year before including him in any "Top Ten In The NFL" lists.

That said, welcome Herbstreit!:wavey:

[doublee]

I don't think there is a QB playing better football than McNabb right now. After three games he has completed 70% of his passes with 8 TDs and 0 INTs with 925 yards and 2 rushing TDs. This may finally be the year that everything clicks for him out there and he establishes himself as an elite passer in the NFL.

[MountaineerDave]

I have to retract something I said from that rant I went on that Herbstreit alluded to...

Plummer is no longer the "lamest ass joke of a starting quarterback." I think it's now officially a mantle worn unhappily but justifiably by one AJ Feeley.

Ai, yai, yai! That guy's scary bad. And they traded a second round pick for him? Even worse.

Dave

[doublee]

<Nelson>
Ha-Ha
</Nelson>

That is whay I gotta love Andy Reid. :)

[digital7]

Here are my top 5.

1. Tom Brady
2. Steve McNair
3. Peyton Manning
4. N/A
5. N/A

:)

[#99]

Wait a second, when in the world did Bledsoe and Fiedler become "underrated?" How about never. Fiedler is splitting snaps with AJ Feeley for crying out loud and can anyone remember the last time Bledsoe threw for over 200 yards in a game? Didn't think so.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here are my top 10 QBs -- when healthy -- as of today. (You will not find Jake Plummer on this list)

1. Manning
2. McNabb
3. McNair
4. Favre
5. Brady
6. Culpepper
7. Hassellback
8. Pennington
9. Brooks
10. Leftwich

[MountaineerDave]

I have to admit that I've rethought my QBs list some. Bledsoe looks like he's toast. I thought he'd experience a trip to the Juvenation Machine, but I was wrong. Same Bledsoe as the one Belichick traded away. Statuesque. Patting the ball. Sad, really.

Is it okay if I admit that despite his outstanding opening to the season, I'm still not sure about McNabb. Call me crazy.

Dave

[doublee]

Originally posted by #99
Wait a second, when in the world did Bledsoe and Fiedler become "underrated?" How about never. Fiedler is splitting snaps with AJ Feeley for crying out loud and can anyone remember the last time Bledsoe threw for over 200 yards in a game? Didn't think so.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here are my top 10 QBs -- when healthy -- as of today. (You will not find Jake Plummer on this list)

1. Manning
2. McNabb
3. McNair
4. Favre
5. Brady
6. Culpepper
7. Hassellback
8. Pennington
9. Brooks
10. Leftwich

How can you bag on Bledsoe for his inability to throw for 200 yards and then rank Leftwich number ten? He has yet to do anything specila this year. I will agree that he is a guy to keep an eye for the future, but he is nowhere near one of the top ten QBs in the league yet.

[MountaineerDave]

Leftwich hasn't been set loose yet, for whatever reason, doublee. I can't decide it's whether the Jags don't yet trust him, or don't trust the O line to keep him clean, or what. But, when they do let him loose (end of games) he's done nothing but make the plays that win games.

If they'd let him loose, I think Jax starts winning by several points, instead of these onesies-twosies.

Dave

[doublee]

I don't know about all that Jimmy Smith is averaging 21.0 yards per catch this year. I suspect that it has more to do with the fact that after Jimmy Smith their recievers are Troy Edwards, George Wrightster, Reggie Williams, and Ernest Wilford not exactly a who's who of wideouts in the NFL there. The rest of their guys are very young and inexperienced. But, I still don't think he is a top ten QB yet.

I agree he is a guy to watch out for in a couple of years.

[Anthony]

What a difference a year makes! This time last year a lot of fans in Philly were demanding that McNabb be benched and Feeley be named the starter; now McNabb is battling his new teammate T.O. for the early lead in the race for league MVP while Feeley has just been benched in Miami. (http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/MIA/7734706)

[doublee]

Wonder what Rush thinks of Donovan now? :D

[MountaineerDave]

Interestingly, the Rush comment was brought up in a talk radio discussion I heard this afternoon.

The show was local, so I wouldn't expect anyone to know the hosts, but the guest (he makes weekly nauseating appearances, tooting his horn for all his other committments) was Peter King. One of the hosts asked if PK thought McNabb still/ever used the Limbaugh comment as motivation.

King noted that he believed, from talking with Donovan, that DM used everything negative ever written or said about him as motivation. King noted that McNabb was always clever about it, without ever calling King himself on it, but noted that he knew "people say...." stuff about him, most of which King's either written or said in one forum or another or all of them.

King also pontificated, sounding a little Rush-esque, that Rush hadn't commented on McNabb directly, but that he was slamming the media. Which is more or less correct, but, well... we went over this ground time and again last season, I think.

Until they lose, though, I'm kinda irritated with this McNabb-TO stuff. I need to see both of them get creamed once before I start pulling for them. They just look way better than expected for me. :)

Dave

[doublee]

I think they also made an off-handed reference to it this past weekend on ESPN's pre-game show. But, yeah they are performing far better than I ever thought they would. I was expecting the offense to be good, but not this good. But something that should be noted this year is well is the offensive line has played markedly better this year than last. As much as Owens has brought to the table I also think the other guys have stepped up a bit as well. L. J. Smith has gotten over the rookie year jitters and is actually hanging on to the ball this year. Freddie Mitchell seems to have found his niche as the slot reciever. I am also very impressed with how tough Westbrook has been running between the tackles. I had my doubts, but he is so elusive darting through those holes. A combination of all of these things have helped elevate Donovan's game this year. He finally feels like he has enough viable weapons out there to score at will.

[Panthers-Rule]

Dude, where is Delhomme on his list?

Plummer is way ovverrated and Vick has yet to prove himself so I like him at number 10.

[MountaineerDave]

doublee-- I forget where I heard it, maybe on NFL Net, someone suggested that one of the keys in Philly was that there was now "one guy" for each key position. One go-to WR (TO), one RB (MW), more stability in the offense, more everyone-on-the-same-page because they were dealing with only a small number of folks, instead of the random subs going in and out of positions previously.

Panthers-Rule, Welcome aboard! :wavey:

Meanwhile, I don't think anyone here is a big believer in Mr Delhomme yet. I'm open to his comeuppance, but I'd like to see him prove it a little longer.

For that matter, I'd tend to leave Vick in the same group as Delhomme, but higher. He's infinitely more athletic. Doesn't make him a QB, so...
Won't argue with Plummer, though. Anyone who decides to throw a ball with his left hand as he's being sacked has a special cell in QB Hell, I'm sure.

Dave

[doublee]

Dave, I whole-heartedly agree with that assessment. Just watching Donovan running the offense this year you can tell Reid, McNabb, and the rest of the squad are all on the same page this year. I have never seen McNabb through with as much authority and confidence this year. Even the worm killers have come at a minimum this year :). Some of his poor throws in the past may have been due to a lack of confidence in his teammates to catch the ball so he was ended up overthrowing the ball trying to make too good of a pass. Where now he just throws it out there and has faith in Westbrook, Owens, Mitchell, et al. to catch the ball. I love the chemistry of this year's squad so much more than last year where the team just seemed very tight at the beginning of the year. The team seems very loose yet focused on winning.

[savebykabi]

After watching these first three weeks I can discern as far as the fifteen best QB's in the league goes....Brad Johnson isn't one of them.

[ESP0704]

If you know me at all, you know I'm for anything that makes Rush Limbaugh look even stupider than usual, so I'm hoping Donovan and T.O. hook up for 60 touchdowns this year.

I'm not kidding.

[#99]

Originally posted by doublee
How can you bag on Bledsoe for his inability to throw for 200 yards and then rank Leftwich number ten? He has yet to do anything specila this year. I will agree that he is a guy to keep an eye for the future, but he is nowhere near one of the top ten QBs in the league yet.

You're crazy if you think Bledsoe is on par with Leftwich. Here's why I place Byron 10th:

1. There aren't many "good" QBs in this league
2. Leftwich is winning
3. He isn't making any mistakes.

I'd consider #2 and #3 to be pretty special if you value winning more than stats.

[Anthony]

Bledsoe is finished - and any day now some defensive end may literally knock him from here to retirement, considering how rotten Buffalo's offensive line is.

[Bran]

I say you have to be insane to not have Peyton Manning as #1. Pure QB-wise there isn't anyone beter. Tom Brady is a lock for #2, for #3 it's a tossup between McNabb or McNair...but I give the edge to McNabb. McNair #4 and Culpepper #5.

[Anthony]

While it would appear to be a formality now that T.O. has happened upon the scene, until a season has actually ended with McNabb having completed at least 60 per cent and averaged 7 or more yards per attempt, he must be placed in the second division (to resurrect an old baseball term) of the NFL - that is to say, not even in the Sweet 16, much less the Top 10.

[doublee]

Well then you are judging him purely on his passing stats and totally disregarding what he brings to the team in terms of his leadership and other facets of the game. I am not sure how one can say that one of the top 5 winningest QBs over the past four seasons does not at least deserve mention in the top 10. At the beginning of the season I could accept the idea that he was not top 5, but he is easily a top 10 QB in the league.

[Bran]

We all give credit to Tom Brady for his consistency over the years, and well deserved, but no love for McNabb? Sure, Brady's been to the Super Bowl twice, won twice, and two MVP awards. But Philly making it to the NFC Championship game all these years is a big acomplishment also, with lot of the credit going to McNabb. Prior to T.O he hasen't had any outstanding wideouts to throw to, but managed to get the Eagles that far. We'll see what he does this season with T.O.

I also base my choice on Manning in terms of everything overall. Arm strength, accuracy, reading defenses (nobody does it better), and converting the big play's. If Indy had any kind of defense over the years, there's no doubt Manning would have a ring already.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by doublee
Well then you are judging him purely on his passing stats and totally disregarding what he brings to the team in terms of his leadership and other facets of the game. I am not sure how one can say that one of the top 5 winningest QBs over the past four seasons does not at least deserve mention in the top 10. At the beginning of the season I could accept the idea that he was not top 5, but he is easily a top 10 QB in the league.


What about his three choke jobs in the conference championship games, where his cumulative passer rating in the three games is 50.5 and he has allowed as many TDs (one, on Ronde Barber's INT return in 2002) as he has generated? In addition, the Eagles have ranked in the second division of the NFL in passing offense every year he has started for them.

Until proven otherwise ...

[#99]

What about his three consecutive NFC Championship appearances? I'm telling you, this is the year the Eagles get over the hump. If it takes winning a Superbowl for you to think a quarterback is great, then I don't suppose you have much love for guys like Jim Kelly or Dan Marino (although probably Marino because he has all those huge stats).

[Bran]

Originally posted by #99
What about his three consecutive NFC Championship appearances? I'm telling you, this is the year the Eagles get over the hump. If it takes winning a Superbowl for you to think a quarterback is great, then I don't suppose you have much love for guys like Jim Kelly or Dan Marino (although probably Marino because he has all those huge stats).

Yep.

It's amazing how the Eagles even got that far not once, not twice, but three teams without any outstanding wide receivers or a real dangerous running game. Mind you, they've had great defenses over the years...but all the credit offensively goes to McNabb for keeping it together. It'll never get recognized until the Super Bowl is won, and most of the time rightfully so, but he get's crapped on for something that's out of his control.

This year there isn't any excuse when you look at who the Eagles have added (Owens & Kearse), and this year we're seeing what McNabb can do with a top wideout. If he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year then label him a choker, but that doesn't hinder him from being in the top 5 QB's in the NFL today.

[#99]

Brian's on the money. You're never going to put up a high completion percentage with Tood Pinkston and James Thrash as your top receivers.

[doublee]

Originally posted by Brian
If he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year then label him a choker, but that doesn't hinder him from being in the top 5 QB's in the NFL today.

That depends on how they lose, if they lose. It would be awful hard to call him a choker if the Eagles get to the Super Bowl and McNabb throws 5 TDs and they lose 38-35.