Bogut takes shots at Kobe

[Bran]

Anyone see this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060201999.html

Bogut was asked for specifics of the American attitude toward the game, what he does not like. Guess who's name came up?

"There's no one I really hate, but Kobe [Bryant] had a demeanor of being very cocky," he said. "What happened with Shaq. . . . If I had a chance to play with Shaq or Tim, if they told me to buy them groceries, I don't care, I buy them groceries. It's a gift to play with somebody like that. Kobe is probably one of the guys that, everybody knows it, he's got that cocky arrogance to him, everything has to surround around him the whole time. Otherwise, he doesn't function. That's the biggest example.

"If you're playing with Shaquille [O'Neal], a Hall of Famer, you keep your mouth shut and play if you want more rings," Bogut continued.

[Shawndo]

yep I saw it. He seems to be just regurgitating the popular opinion in an effort to make a little news for himself and boost his recognition... AKA cheap shot.
Well, that's how it struck me anyway..

Watch for Bogut to get 'posterized' next season.... (if there IS a next season!)

[Kashchei]

And as I post there is a Laker's jersey ad at the top of the page. Coincidence?

[Shawndo]

Originally posted by Kashchei
Coincidence?

yep.

But I see three ads up there for a Bryant jersey... which doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons. How does Google determine which ads to place there?
You would think a D-Wade, Shaq, Ginobili, Stoudemire jersey ad should be up there at the moment..

[Tarkus]

Sorry, Shawn, but I don't see him regurgitating but being asked his take on those topics. I didn't get any bandwagon type of feel.

As far as boosting his recognition....I think his play will be the determining factor & he knows it. It sounds like he has his head on straight when it comes to playing team ball & if he doesn't when his time comes, I'm sure this article will be force fed to him by the media...

[Shawndo]

That's ok, Tarkus, you're more than welcome to your opinion.
To me it sounded and still sounds like someone who reads all the daily NBA news and commentary and just spitting it right back out. He could have taken the high road and not said anything negative about anyone, but then nothing would have gotten printed or read. I'll give Bogut credit for knowing what he could get away with saying and getting his name in the press as a result.... but I also look forward to having his poster on my wall, with him on the receiving end of a Bryant facial ;)

[KevinBeane]

Originally posted by Shawndo
yep.

But I see three ads up there for a Bryant jersey... which doesn't make sense to me for a number of reasons. How does Google determine which ads to place there?
You would think a D-Wade, Shaq, Ginobili, Stoudemire jersey ad should be up there at the moment..

The Google ad bot looks for key words on a page and places ads accordingly. That's why there's ads for Kobe here and not the playoff contenders (unless Shawndo triggered them by mentioning them).

[Shawndo]

yep I just got that when I hit the back button and realized kobe was the only player name mentioned on the page...

[blackdogsong]

i think Andrew Bogut he is a bit out of line here- he is not even in the NBA and taking cheap shots a legit superstar already- for all we know he could be the second coming of Sam Bowie. nothing he said is news to anyway- i'd keep it zipped and wait for the draft.

[Alex]

Originally posted by blackdogsong
i think Andrew Bogut he is a bit out of line here- he is not even in the NBA and taking cheap shots a legit superstar already- for all we know he could be the second coming of Sam Bowie. nothing he said is news to anyway- i'd keep it zipped and wait for the draft.
I agree completely. It's hard to respect a player who hasn't even been drafted yet and is taking cheap shots at one of the game's better players. I dislike Kobe any awful lot be this just seems like a cheap shot.

[doublee]

I am sure the teams looking to draft him were happy to read this. They are probably thinking oh great now we get to look forward to Kobe dropping 40 on us every time we play the Lakers next season.

This sort of reminds me of the time when Jerry Stackhouse made a comment during his rookie season that he was surprised at how easy it was at the NBA level. Jordan heard about this and the next time the Bulls played the Sixers Jordan made a point of dropping 50+ on Stackhouse just to show him how easy it was at the NBA level. I can see Kobe doing something similar just to show up Bogut.

[Marc]

First, I'm glad to see someone actually have a personality and not be afraid to speak their mind. Where would we be without the Charles Barkleys of sports? 99% of those involved sound like robots using their tired cliches. Secondly, no one should criticize Bogut because he's actually right on his point! The dude's got balls, and I like that.

[Shawndo]

so he's not even in the NBA yet and he's already trashing established players.... I wonder what the great Charles Barkley would say about that? There is something to be said for earning a stripe or two before you open your mouth like that. I'm glad he's got balls too... in fact maybe I'll even draw some on his poster when he's eating the big one.

[Tarkus]

:lol: Shawn...

That's the theme of the NBA today. He's gonna fit right in...:lol:

[Shawndo]

fit right into a few posters...

[#99]

I think we can all pretty much agree with Bogut's comments. Generally, you do everything you can to win more rings and the biggest no-brainer is that Shaq gives you the best shot of doing that. It's also no secret that Bogut is pretty much echoing what most NBAers are thinking amongst themselves. Is there a less-desirable teammate right now than Kobe? I don't think so. Lakers have quite a mountain to climb when it comes to attracting talent via free agency.

However, Bogut has some real grapefruits answering that question so candidly before even playing a game in the league. The boy may just have made that target on his back even bigger.

[Shawndo]

:lol:

[trayhezy]

Apparently this nitwit has a penchant for offending every body:

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=129538

Now he has been taking shots at his previous countrymen who have played in the league and they want a piece of him.

He may be better than all the previous Aussies that have played in the league and I like his confidence but he has to show it instead of yacking about it all the time.

He is just as disrespectful as he says Kobe is and NBA veterans tend to make examples out of disrespectful kids. I expected to see him on a new Kobe poster next year but his mouth may get him on a few others.javascript:newwind('http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=129538','101')

[doublee]

Too bad Karl Malone is not around anymore to welcome Bogut into the league with an elbow supreme to the chops. :lol:

[Clipps]

I will have a lot of respect for him if he's able to prove it by April. But if not, I will not like this guy.

[buckeyefan78]

So basically all this guy has to do is have a better career than Luc Longley (score 10 points in a game= mission accomplished) and wait another dozen or so years as Kobe breaks up the Lakers 4 or 5 more times and finishes his career with no more rings to be proven right on the comments?

Well, if I was a bettin' man, I'd place my dough on the kid.

[KevinBeane]

To me, it's not whether his comments are right or not (I generally agree with his comments) or whether he has the right to say them (of course he does). The bottom line is, it just really doesn't say much about you if you rip on a colleague that you really have no connection with, and an easy target at that. His comments were classless and reveals a pretty massive ego on Bogut's part. I'm not the Kobe fan Shawndo is, but like him I am hoping for a posterization.

[blackdogsong]

Bogut has a bad attitude before then lacing up for a single NBA game. he will be lucky to get one ring, let alone the 3 that Luc Longley has.

[Shawndo]

Well Bogut may have actually made a smart play, albeit probably unwittingly... Spewing out the remarks he's made has made him slightly more recognizable to the casual viewer and definitely increased the amount of people watching the Bucks (on top of the amount of viewership increase due to the top pick expectations).

I for one will probably watch Bucks games now even when they're not playing the Lakers, just in the hopes of seeing someone (anyone) posterize the big lug.

[buckeyefan78]

KB...

Kobe's an easy target? How so?

[KevinBeane]

Because he's widely believed to be a rapist by those who assume the worst always about pro athletes in this situation, and he's well-documented (by you yourself, even) to be a me-first whiner who is capable of alienating even the zen-like Phil Jackson.

[Shawndo]

Here's your easy target.... ;)

[buckeyefan78]

I don't consider Kobe an easy target though. He's the one who wanted to be "the man." If he didn't understand that you have to take all the heat, then that's his problem. I don't think the rape situation had anything to do with incident. The man has so many flaws on the court and in his approach to the team concept, one doesn't need to even consider what a jerk he is off the court when taking shots at him. He definitely didn't get enough heat when the breakup went down last year, and still isn't IMO. When you basically put yourself in a role of a Magic, Bird, or in his case, a Jordan, banners need to rise and quick. You can blast guys like T-Mac or Iverson for not winning, but their behavior doesn't compare to Kobe's.

[KevinBeane]

To me, Buckeye, you're spelling out the things that make him easy to criticize. That's what I mean by "easy target."

[Shawndo]

Originally posted by KevinBeane
To me, Buckeye, you're spelling out the things that make him easy to criticize. That's what I mean by "easy target."

That's exactly what I was thinking... you ask a question and then answer it (and then some).. almost seemed like looking for an excuse to break out the baseball bat and swing at the 'Kobe pinata' some more.. it's that sentiment that Bogut tried to tap into to gain himself a little bit of cred.

[buckeyefan78]

Yes KB, but he's an easy target by HIS choice, not by fate or things he can't control. That takes care of the drama queen stuff. As far as his faults go regarding the court, he has the talent to rectify them if he wants. All the more reason to blast him. With his abilities, no way he should be turning over the ball that much and gambling on defense.

Getting back to Bogut, I guess you can fault him for taking a shot at Longley then, considering Luc played as well as HE could. With Kobe's upbringing and talent, he shouldn't be a selfish sub-human... on and off the court. And that is EXACTLY what he is. That's my main point, and where Bogut knocked this one out of the park.

[Shawndo]

I'm considering renaming this thread to "Buckeye uses Bogut to take shots at Kobe".

I mean seriously, let go of some of the hate already. It's bad for your health. Granted, I may understate the amount of criticism due with my obvious bias, but this is way overboard on the other end. (selfish sub-human? give me a break)

If you ever wondered who wrote the book "10,000 Reasons Why Kobe Bryant Must Die"... the author hails from Youngstown, Ohio ;)

Bogut didn't knock anything out of the park. He simply took a large gamble by running his mouth. If he has the skills to back it up, then he wins, but if he gets used up on a nightly basis, he'll be the 'poster boy' for www.laughingstock.com

[buckeyefan78]

I'm just debating on what makes Kobe an easy target, that's all. I don't think someone can be an easy target when that person, AND THAT PERSON ALONE, is responsible for his downfall. Again, considering his rearing, talent, and the obvious work ethic, Bryant had to go out of his way to become any sort of target, on and off the court. An easy target to me is someone with a weakness that he can't help (like Longley). Pointing out Luc's faults is an exercise in futility, considering he doesn't represent what Bogut wants (which is what Kobe HAD).

I'm not sure I've heard any player condemn Kobe in this way, vet or rookie. That has really surprised me, considering what a waste Kobe has become. Bogut's comments are refreshing, considering I believe his sentiments to be in the minority, both in the public and in the league. The NBA, Stern, the media, and the fans all wanted to create another Jordan. Well, they got their monster, except he is defective. In a way, the downfall of Kobe might be the best thing to happen to this league since Bird and Magic came in back in 79. If enough players speak up and reject the blueprint of Kobe, the league will benefit greatly. I can only hope the silent players are doing this on their own terms. That might be wishfull thinking though. Hopefully Bogut lives up to his words, no matter his skill level once he sees action.

[Shawndo]

Originally posted by buckeyefan78
I'm just debating on what makes Kobe an easy target, that's all.

OK, let's take a look at the term 'easy target'. By definition, this would be a target that's easy to hit, and that you can fire at, and not expect a whole lot of return fire. Agreed? good.

It's quite likely that there has never been an NBA athlete who has endured MORE negative media coverage than Kobe Bryant. He made an extremely large blunder legally, and is also accused of breaking up the Lakers Dynasty (although that is debatable).

Therefore, it's extremely easy to borrow from any of the thousands of negative articles written about him and regurgitate various points in them (Andrew Bogut), without much worry of repercussion.

Hence, the EASY TARGET.


Again, the point seems obvious to me.. and it looks like you're just poking at it for the opportunity to vent more hate about Bryant.
Correct me if I'm wrong..

[KevinBeane]

I'm going to have to second Shawndo here...whether the criticism or not is deserved has nothing to do with whether one is an easy target. Easy target simply means everyone is standing in line to take potshots at them. There's lots of easy targets in our society, both people (Michael Jackson) and entities (THE MEDIA) that people criticize, and often criticize with merit. You seem to be confusing "easy target" with "unfair target." They're not the same.

And if that's not good enough for you, I will restate my opinion without using the term "easy target." Bogut hasn't earned enough NBA merit badges (having never stepped on a court as an NBA player) to criticize a veteran NBA player. Whether his criticism has any merit or not is BESIDES the point, because he hasn't proven himself to be any different or better in the NBA. He may turn out to be just as cocky, destructive, arrogant, etc., in the NBA as Kobe has. It's not until he has acquitted himself, in the NBA, of having those attributes that he can make those comments and not come off looking classless and cocky himself.

[buckeyefan78]

I don't see the attacks on Kobe like you guys do. Perhaps I'm not reading or watching the right media here. There definitely wasn't much when the breakup went down. Any jabs at this point are ho-hum if you ask me. Sure the folks at the L.A. Times had to do their darker pieces on him after this season's failure, but that's not acknowleding the bigger issue here. Sure he gets criticized, but for the magnitude of his actions (being the #2 man in destroying arguably the best sports franchise ever), he doesn't get enough tossed at him.

In judging Kobe by the standards he has demanded (being THE MAN) and the media, Stern, and fans granted him (MJ for a new world), he doesn't get enough junk. He wanted this fate and doesn't get the flack for his failures or take the responsibility for them. We've gone from Larry Bird describing his play as well as his team's play as "playing like a bunch of women" after a WIN in a Finals game to totally letting this guy have "time?"

I just chuckle at picturing the expression on the faces of Bird or Jordan if someone told them to give them "time" to get another ring.

Again, you aren't an easy target if you took the risk in the first place. I still don't see the players jump on this bandwagon. Aside from Bogut and a few Ray Allen remarks I would consider mild, where have players taken shots at him? I would imagine a league full of ego-driven "me" players would do that to a guy who was once so high in this world, wouldn't you?

As far as Bogut goes KB, he could just be recognizing the failure of Kobe Bryant and pointing out that is a road he doesn't want to travel. I'm not convinced today's players or fans understand the fact that Kobe Bryant is everything wrong with the NBA.

[tobynosker]

Aside from Bogut and a few Ray Allen remarks I would consider mild, where have players taken shots at him? I would imagine a league full of ego-driven "me" players would do that to a guy who was once so high in this world, wouldn't you?

I seem to remember a best-selling book entitled "The Last Season" that was basically written on the premise that Kobe Bryant destroyed the Los Angeles Lakers. Which leads me to...

(Kobe Brynt) being the #2 man in destroying arguably the best sports franchise ever.

The Los Angeles Lakers are the greatest sports franchise ever?
In 2003, the Milwuakee Journal Sentinel sent ballots to many of the most recognizable and distinguished sports writers and broadcasters in the country to select the greatest sports franchises. The 20 experts that participated included broadcasters Joe Buck, Bob Costas, Dick Enberg and Jim Nantz; and writers Mitch Albom, Dave Anderson, Frank Deford, Tony Kornheiser and Bob Ryan. The New York Yankees, the Boston Celtics, the Green Bay Packers, the Montreal Canadiens and the Los Angeles Dodgers finished ahead of the Los Angeles Lakers in the ballot. And nineteen of the 20 voters listed the Yankees No. 1.

And Kobe Bryant, in one season, single-handedly destroyed the organization?

I know. The Los Angeles Lakers, with support from Kobe Bryant, decided to trade away the "most dominant player in the game," and subsequently ended the dynasty of the Los Angeles Lakers. But that wasn't all Kobe Bryant's fault.

Last offseason it was Lakers General Manager Mitch Kupchak who made the team's priorities clear when he said the Lakers would do anything they need to keep Bryant and would try to accomadate Shaquille O'Neal if he demanded a trade.

ESPN.com contributor Scott Howard-Cooper wrote "(Bryant) was the (Jerry) Buss favorite in the way that Magic Johnson had been a generation before, younger than O'Neal and better at staying in shape and, therefore, a smarter financial investment for a mega-contract. Even with the possibility of prison. Kobe was the one who waited to hit the open market and proclaimed publicly, despite wandering eyes, that he hoped things would work out so he would stay. Shaq was the one who showed up Buss by screaming during exhibition games for more money and dinged Kupchak."

"I wanted to let you guys know, this is something I've been thinking about for a long time," O'Neal said after demanding a trade. "When I was brought here by Jerry West, there was a team concept. ... It was something I wanted to be a part of. Now no one cares. I told you I'm all about winning championships. Now the organization is different. Therefore, I don't want to be a part of that...The direction they're going in, if they're going to continue to go in the same direction, I don't want to be a part of this. This team, it ain't about me. It ain't about Phil. It's supposed to be about team."

Just a few weeks earlier, it seemed Shaq had a different idea of what team meant.

Remember during the 2004 season, the Los Angeles Times quoted Shaquille O'Neal as saying the Los Angeles Lakers were his team, not Kobe's? "Yeah, everybody knows that," O'Neal said. "And you guys may give [the team] to him [Kobe], just like you've been giving him everything else in his whole lifetime...As long as it's my team, then I'll voice my opinion. Just ask Karl (Malone) and Gary (Payton) why they came here. One person, not two. One. Period...If (Kobe) don't like it, then you can opt out next year."

I don't know about you, but I would personally love to work with a guy who publicly made it a point to tell everyone that I am not a draw and nowhere near his level.

And how did Bryant respond? Kobe said if the Lakers are O'Neal's team "it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership … or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning...Leaders don't beg for a contract extension and negotiate some $30 million-plus-per-year deal in the media when we have two future Hall of Famers (Malone and Payton) playing here pretty much for free. A leader (does not) threaten not to play defense and rebound if you don't get the ball every time down the floor."

Unlike Shaq, Kobe was fined an undisclosed amount by the Lakers for his comments.

While I wouldn't be so arrogant nor as cocky as Bryant, I would probably be just as unhappy playing alongside of a guy who seemed to make a point in public to bring their problems and squabbles out in the open.

Face facts buckeye. Both Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant are selfish and immature, and both of their mindsets hurt the Lakers.

But they didn't destroy the Lakers.

The Boston Celtics, who I think a lot of people could make a strong arguement for as the best sports franchise ever, were a combined 142 games under .500 and missed the playoffs seven of the following eight seasons after Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish stepped down from the game.

The Lakers finished with a better record than they did in 1994, the last time the Lakers missed the playoffs. And need we not forget that around mid-March, three-fourths of the way through the season, the Los Angeles Lakers and the Minnesota Timberwolves were both tied for ninth place in the West, and were a half-game behind the Denver Nuggets for the eighth and final playoff spot.

That's right, a half of a game out of playoff contention three-fourths of the way through the season. And if Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm, Vlade Divac and Kobe Bryant wouldn't have all missed considerable time due to injury, and if the Lakers wouldn't have had to go through a coaching change mid-way through the season, the Lakers probably would have been a playoff team.

Now with Phil Jackson at the helm, they still remain a probable playoff team.

Yet, somehow they are destroyed.

[buckeyefan78]

toby...

Phil was a coach, not a player. There is a huge difference. This is a players' league. Name me another player please.

I said the Lakers were ARGUABLY the best franchise ever. So your list is meaningless. Yes, it is arguable. No one can deny their greatness though.

I NEVER SAID KOBE DID DESTROYED IT ALONE. I CALLED HIM THE #2 MAN (Buss being #1). Again, with my above two points and this one, there are three tenets you've misread me on and I don't appreciate it. Please read and respond to what I've written, not what you want to debate on.

The other issues you bring up are tiresome. Shaq was the elder and protocol states you do as your told. I'm not saying he didn't have faults, but to bring up his issues is meaningless because they pale in comparison to what Kobe did to this team. In any circumstance, despite both of their faults, you are going to tell me if you had to put a % on blame for lack of success on and off the court, you are going to put Shaq at a higher clip in either arena? I'd love to hear why.

Your Celtics comparison confuses me. I'd like some elaboration. Boston did fall hard, but they did so for two main reasons...

1. the deaths of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis
2. the decision to hold on to the old guard and pay them more than they were worth at the time ( Bird, McHale, Chief) and try to win that way. I applaud the loyalty and effort. This notion of "breaking up teams" is new b.s. for the young generation that have no sense of respect and loyalty. Magic, as you stated Buss loved over Kareem, didn't try to get rid of the Big Fella after the Lakers lost the 84 Finals just because they lost. That would be insane in the old days ( btw...Magic played like crap that series and was the main reason for the failure). And when the Lakers did fall from grace after Showtime, it was due to old legs and early retirement by Magic. James Worthy didn't throw a ball at Randy Phund and blow his top and we called it a breakdown. These guys went down fighting on the court, not off the court.

I like the "if, woulda, coulda, shoulda" routine you did to talk about how L.A. might have made the playoffs this year. Nice reasoning for a Nuggets fan, not a Laker fan. If you notice the franchise you listed as #1 was the Yankees, a team that demands nothing less than a title each year. Probably why they win most of them. I'm not in the business of reasoning why the Lakers didn't win the Finals or why Ohio State didn't beat Michigan this year. If they fail, I want different results as soon as possible, no excuses. Fact is, these teams have always had a system in place to sustain greatness from top to bottom in the organization. When you break that up, you are doomed. Reputation will get you as far as the Celts got during the mid to late 90s: NO WHERE.

And yes they are destroyed. This notion of the Lakers being the team of choice by free agents nowadays is so wrong, it makes me chuckle. That boat left when Riley and West set their sails for other teams. Fact is, the Lakers have completely failed under Kupchak (with Kobe pulling strings on his back) to get a core of players in L.A. to help this team out. You point out Malone and Payton, but that was a quick fix attempt and not very wise. The fact is, that was Magic's working, not Mitch's. Who held up their jerseys and was by their sides at the press conferences? Magic. Hey, I love the guy, but he's no Jerry West. No one is.

We will soon know toby. Yao, Amare, Lebron are all coming up in the next few years. Let's see the mighty team of Mitch/Kobe/ and Buss pull it off. Cap room is no problem with the new amnesty clause in the collective bargaining agreement which states a team can dump one player's salary (have to pay the guy, but doesn't count against the cap, thinking B Grant should be used here). Buss must dump it and agree to pay him and Mitch/Kobe must use their charm to get the big name. I'll be waiting. Then after that, the banner must rise. I'm not holding my breath, but you can.

[Shawndo]

Buckeye, you're way off on the easy target point. But I've already tried to explain it, as has KB & toby made a brief reference to it, so I give up: you think whatever you want.
Unfortunately I can't find a definition of the term to make it crystal clear, so I guess it's somewhat subjective.


Originally posted by buckeyefan78

The other issues you bring up are tiresome. Shaq was the elder and protocol states you do as your told. I'm not saying he didn't have faults, but to bring up his issues is meaningless because they pale in comparison to what Kobe did to this team. In any circumstance, despite both of their faults, you are going to tell me if you had to put a % on blame for lack of success on and off the court, you are going to put Shaq at a higher clip in either arena? I'd love to hear why.


Tiresome?? Could it be tiresome because toby's absolutely correct and you don't like to hear about how it's not all Kobe & Buss' fault? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting..
I don't think it 'pales in comparison' at all. No one kicked Shaq out. He's the one who demanded a trade. Somehow that little fact seems to get overlooked.

[buckeyefan78]

I retract my last post. This is futile really and gets back to the Kobe problems. Can I ask what Shawn and toby do for a living though here?

[Shawndo]

Sure, I am a Help Desk Analyst for Dell/Kaiser and I go to evening school finishing up my degree in Information Technology - Multimedia.

[tobynosker]

I am a news and sports director for two radio stations in North Central Kansas. Been really crazy as far as sports is concerned, with Gene Stephenson first announcing at a press conference yesterday morning that he is stepping down as Head Baseball Coach of Wichita State University to become the Head Baseball Coach with the Oklahoma Sooners, only hours later to to remain with the Shockers program. With my job (which I don't consider a job at all), I have the opportunity to work with Greg Brummett, the MVP of the 1989 College World Series won by Wichita State. Brummett, who played seven years in the majors, is now the Head Baseball Coach of the Cloud County Community College Thunderbirds.

I have a fantastic job where I am the morning show host of our AM station (At age 21, I always feel strange listening to Kanye West in my car, only to arrive at work and DJ music from Peaches and Herb), as well as anchoring the 7 and 8 AM, Noon, and 5 PM newscasts Monday through Friday. We cover local area high school ballgames, as well as Cloud County Community College athletics, and I have had the opportunity to work on USBL ballgames (a minor league professional basketball league) covering the Kansas Cagerz.

My only real job was for two and-a-half months in the Electronics Department at my home town's local Wal-Mart when trying to earn extra cash for college. Otherwise, for six years I have gotten to have the most fun of my life working in a job that requires me to just do what I love to do. I couldn't ask for anything more.

Phil was a coach, not a player. There is a huge difference. This is a players' league. Name me another player please.

Let's break it down to technicalities. But Andrew Bogut didn't come to this decision to bash Kobe Bryant in the media on his own. From Ray Allen, to the most dominate player in the game in Shaquille O'Neal, to a best-selling book by one of the most respected and arguably one of the greatest coaches of all-time in Phil Jackson, to the entire media, over the last two seasons, it is more apparent there is more dislike than admiration for Bryant. And while granted, Bryant and some of his actions have helped add fuel to the fire, like a Michael Jackson or OJ Simpson or more recently a Tom Cruise, Bryant has been an easy target.

I NEVER SAID KOBE DID DESTROYED IT ALONE. I CALLED HIM THE #2 MAN (Buss being #1).]

The Los Angeles Lakers management made it very clear that they were going to do everything in there power to resign Kobe Bryant, even if that meant trading away Shaquille O'Neal and losing Phil Jackson as coach. Obviously one of the deciding factors in that decision by management was because of the turmoil and friction that existed amongst O'Neal and Bryant, but the decision to trade away Shaquille O'Neal cannot fall on Kobe Bryant's shoulders. Jerry Buss is the owner. Mitch Kupchak is the general manager. These two guys call the shots. Does Bryant have influence? Of course. But he is not to blame, nor should he ever be to blame for the trading of Shaquille O'Neal.

The two guys didn't like each other. It happens. And after awhile, management has to come to a decision to apease one of the two parties, or decide to do away with both and start over. Just as much as Kobe is to blame for not wanting to play with Shaq, O'Neal is just as much to blame for not wanting to play with Kobe. From calling him out in the media, scrutinizing his play, and badmouthing him in rap songs, O'Neal made it abundantly clear that he doesn't like Kobe and didn't see a future in playing together beyond the 2003-2004 season.

Management made the decision that they felt best suited the organization. As I wrote in an earlier thread, Buss, Kupchak, Bryant and Laker fans had to have known that for the short term, this trade was going to hurt this team and organization. Obviously by missing the playoffs they took a giant leap in the wrong direction. But there is still several more giant leaps to take before you reach destroyed.

Your Celtics comparison confuses me. I'd like some elaboration...I like the "if, woulda, coulda, shoulda" routine you did to talk about how L.A. might have made the playoffs this year...If they fail, I want different results as soon as possible, no excuses...Reputation will get you as far as the Celts got during the mid to late 90s: NO WHERE.

The Boston Celtics were a combined 142 games under .500 and missed the playoffs seven of the following eight seasons after Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish stepped down from the game. That is an organization that was nearly destroyed by the decisions of management. The Los Angeles Lakers are a team that was in playoff contention three-fourths of the way through the regular season, after battling numerous injuries to their top stars and having to make a coaching change mid-way through the season. Plus, that was a new coach coming into a rattled organization that didn't get the opportunity to establish himself and establish the direction for the team he wanted.

I can honestly say that the Los Angeles Lakers finished the season right where I expected them to finish. I believe the Los Angeles Lakers also finished right where most people expected them to finish, regardless of the reputation of the organization has been over the past 50-plus years.

Now, if Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom can remain healthy and with Phil Jackson as their head coach I fully expect the Lakers to make the playoffs. I don't expect them to get past the first round. But, I think anyone who does is overlooking exactly what the trade and the situation in Los Angeles was like.

Expectations in Los Angeles might be for this team to be exceptional and in contention every year. And in a couple of years I believe they will be. I know in your mind that Jerry West and Pat Riley are Gods in this league. And they deserve plenty of recognition. But regardless, their will always be life outside of Jerry West and Pat Riley.

Los Angeles hasn't landed some big name free agents recently because they didn't need to. They had two of the best players in the league today running the show. It landed three NBA Championships and four final appearances in five years. At that rate, you don't need to test the free agent market. But now they can. Yet, you are claming the ship has sunk before it's ever set sail.

You can't judge this team based on one season, and even judging what they do next season will still be premature. They have one of the best coaches in NBA history, a premiere market place for players looking to get noticed, a franchise with a glorious tradition, and as Scott Howard-Cooper said "(Bryant) was the (Jerry) Buss faorite...younger than O'Neal and better at staying in shape and, therefore, a smarter financial investment for a mega-contract."

Maybe Kobe Bryant never wins another Championship. But I think it would be tough to say that had Bryant left last offseason as a free-agent and the Lakers got nothing in return other than to keep Shaquille O'Neal around, the Lakers wouldn't have won a Championship this season either.

Banners will rise again in Los Angeles. And there will always be another great Laker Legend. The franchise is far from destroyed.

[Billy D]

Uh oh, the "Teach" (aka Buckeye) is getting around to dishing out some discipline!!

(Yeah, by the way, i'm a 5th grader-- on summer vacation and too young to work a summer job-- so i've got plenty of time to surf the SCMB. That's my story and i'm sticking to it... until September.)

[buckeyefan78]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one toby. We are way too far apart on the issue to make any kind of progress.

Billy...

Thing is, I'm laid back in my professional life. The reason why I asked Shawn and toby what they did for a living is because (and this isn't a knock, just my opinion guys) I don't think they've been in a professional workplace long enough to know the workings of the politics that go on inside. Plus my old school mentality of doing things doesn't translate in today's world.

[Shawndo]

Originally posted by buckeyefan78
I I don't think they've been in a professional workplace long enough to know the workings of the politics that go on inside.

..oh for crying out loud...:banghead: :wtf:


Originally posted by buckeyefan78
my old school mentality of doing things doesn't translate in today's world.

..well at least we agree on one thing.

[tobynosker]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one toby. We are way too far apart on the issue to make any kind of progress.

That is the thing I most enjoy about debating certain topics on this board with you buckeye, because I know that very rarely will you change your mind. I am glad most everyone here can agree to just disagree. But you couldn't do that without taking personal shots...

I don't think they've been in a professional workplace long enough to know the workings of the politics that go on inside.

I don't believe you know a damn thing about me to be making these sort of statements. Judging my knowledge, talent and abilities based solely on my age would be like me blaming the (so-called) problems with teenagers and college students on you, because you are a teacher who hasn't properly done his job in educating these kids and making sure they are ready for the real world. I don't believe that at all.

I may not have been in a professional workplace all that long (I am only 21 years of age), but I have been working in the same profession for the last 6 years. I began as an intern at an adult contemporary station as a disc jockey on Saturday and Sunday Nights, as well as a board operator for local high school and collegiate games, while also getting the opportunity to be a sideline reporter for the Kansas Cagerz. At that same time, I also freely volunteered at my high school to broadcast all of their home sporting events over their school website.

That adult contemporary station was sold right before I turned 18 years old, and the new owners to decided they wanted to automate everything leaving no room for myself. Only one person remains from the staff that worked at the station when I worked there. The most disappointing job was the fact that the old regime wouldn't put anyone on the payroll unless they were 18 years of age. You want to talk about politics of a workplace? It was almost three years of working for free that I will never forget.

Following that, I interned my summer before college working at what I would call one of the top three radio stations, or groups of radio stations in the state of Kansas. This internship involved spending every day in a new department, from sports, to news, to sales, to bookkeeping, to traffic, etc. While doing that, I also worked at Wal-Mart in the Electronic's Department 40 hours a week.

Then while attending a nearby community college, I became a sports director, news director, and during my last semester I became station manager of the college radio station. I also wrote sports for the college newspaper and broadcasted all of the Cloud County Community College Thunderbirds basketball, baseball and softball games for two seasons.

During my sophomore year, I also interned for college credit at the radio station where I currently am employed.

In April of 2004, a month before graduation, I had the honor of getting my first full-time radio job with that group of six radio stations I had previously worked it. Now though, it was run by Morris Communications Company LLC out of Augusta, Georgia. For the last month I would travel an hour down and an hour back from work six days a week so I could finish my schooling and be the host of the Nightshift Live on the Buzz 104.9 in Salina, Kansas. You want an example of the politics of a corporate workplace and what it will do to you. I talked with one of the sales men who now works for an insurance company, and he pointed out to me that since the company Christmas photo to Valentine's Day, nine full-time employees had left the company that only employeed around 45 people. Radio will quickly teach you the politics of life.

In October of 2004, I was contacted by my former (and now my current) employer about a full-time position he had open. I accepted and have enjoyed the opportunity of covering news and sports for what would be considered two small-market radio stations. But, I came from a small town and so did my girlfriend, and I have experienced the corporate life, and couldn't be more happy than I am where I'm at.

Plus my old school mentality of doing things doesn't translate in today's world.

So explain to me what today's world is like. Because I don't understand how a simple debate of whether or not a sports organization is destroyed had to turn into personal attacks on Shawn or I just to make yourself feel more successful or knowledgable than either of us based solely on your age. If that is the old school mentality, I don't want any part of it.

[KevinBeane]

Alright, enough. I for one, have an issue with Buckeye reinventing the definition of "easy target," but I've known Buckeye long enough to know that you're taking his comments more seriously and insultingly than he meant. He's a high school history teacher, and didn't we all have a high school history teacher like him? Opinionated, knows he's right about everything, dim view of the youngsters around him, both here and in his class, etc., etc., But don't mistake his casual pomposity for him taking a swing at you.

That said, Buckeye, you know you come off this way, right? I remember being just as furious when you said I was "brainwashed" for wanting a college football playoff. Maybe you should start asking yourself questions like, "Am I accusing someone of being naive by saying this? Shouldn't I overwhelm them with the strength of my argument instead?" or something. No one likes to be told, "You think that way because you're ignorant." but all too often, that's what you seem to imply.

[buckeyefan78]

After reading the comments, I'd say they could be taken as offensive. So I apologize to toby and Shawn for the remarks.

[Shawndo]

it's all good here, I know you didn't intend it to be offensive.
As for this argument, I think we should probably let it die back down, as you were correct, buckeye... it wasn't really going to go anywhere unless something new surfaces..
:)

[Noon]

Originally posted by tobynosker
I have a fantastic job where I am the morning show host of our AM station (At age 21, I always feel strange listening to Kanye West in my car, only to arrive at work and DJ music from Peaches and Herb), as well as anchoring the 7 and 8 AM, Noon, and 5 PM newscasts Monday through Friday. We cover local area high school ballgames, as well as Cloud County Community College athletics, and I have had the opportunity to work on USBL ballgames (a minor league professional basketball league) covering the Kansas Cagerz.

Cloud County Community College.

Home of the Fighting Thunderbirds, Kevin Muff and NJCAA championship coach Brett Erkenbrack.

There's nothing like a drive through the middle of Kansas to Concordia. It's breathtaking. Really.

[tobynosker]

There's nothing like a drive through the middle of Kansas to Concordia. It's breathtaking. Really.

You must have found a scenic route I have yet to discover. How do you know about Cloud County Community College?

[KevinBeane]

Ol' Noon here, as us longtimers know, is a Kansas boy hisself. Writes for I-can't-remember-which Kansas paper.

[Noon]

I cover Barton County Community College for the (here it is Kev) Great Bend Tribune.

I usually travel for basketball, so I've been to Cloud County a few times.

[blackdogsong]

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Top NBA draft pick Andrew Bogut blocked three shots, scored seven points and was called for five fouls (!) while playing 28 minutes in his summer league debut for the Milwaukee Bucks on Friday night against the Minnesota Timberwolves.

The 7-foot-1 Bogut struggled inside against Minnesota centers Dwayne Jones, Nick Horvath and David Simon (who?) and the Timberwolves won 102-69

[Billy D]

Aw, crikey!

[blackdogsong]

i know it doesn't count and it's his first summer league game... but what a poor start. a ton of fouls and only a handful of points against guys who probably won't even be in the NBA this season.

[Shawndo]

<--- looking forward to some posters this season starring Bogut in the 'getting dunked on' role.

[blackdogsong]

i think Bogut is going to be a mix of Shawn Bradly and Luc Longley. a good shot blocker due to his height and that's about it.

[Marc]

I don't think that's fair at all, blackdogsong. I haven't seen a lot of Utah games, but I did watch him when Utah played Kentucky and I payed a lot of attention to him. He is very agile and has guard-like footwork, I would compare him more to Dirk Nowitzki with less of an outside shot than the slow-footed Longley and Bradley.

[trayhezy]

I think Bogut will be a solid center, not an all star but a solid center..........which for today's NBA a solid center is an all star.

[tobynosker]

I don't want to get too off topic, but my favorite Cloud County Community College Men's Basketball game I ever had the privelege of calling was at the 2003 Men's Region VI Basketball Tournament when the Thunderbirds and the Cougars of Barton County Community College met in the second-round. With Barton County ranked fourth nationally, after having blown us out twice during the Conference season, and having one of the most talented Junior College starting lineups I have seen (Robert Whaley, Randy Pulley, Rodney Epperson, Justin Rose and Nouha Diakite), I was dreading going to the Salina Bicentennial Center that day.

How Cloud County was able to pull of such an upset is beyond me? Since that game, the Cloud County Community College Men's Basketball program has done nothing but rise. Last year, they hosted their first ever first-round Region VI Tournament game, while also taking then-three time reigning Region VI Tournament Champions Coffeyville Red Ravens down to the wire in a second-round match-up at the Bi-Center. While Barton County unfortunately has had a world of problems since that season.

I can't wait for the Barton County Community College Men's Basketball Tournament on November 25th and 26th. Cloud County matches up with the defending NJCAA Division II National Champion Brown Mackie Lions (I went to High School with Coach Francis Flax's daughter and follow his son's playing career at Southeast of Saline High School, and I have a true admiration for what that man has been able to accomplish at Brown Mackie and with the Kansas Cagerz), before taking on Westchester out of New York.

Besides, Barton County has the best hospitality room and the best statisticians in the Jayhawk Conference. Something that makes my job happier and easier. Especially when we are getting beat like we usually do in Great Bend.

To get back on to topic: I hope Andrew Bogut works out. I wouldn't base anything he does this summer on the kind of player he will end up being. But, I don't think Bogut will get off to as good of a start as Emeka Okafor or Dwight Howard were able to do doing their rookie seasons this past year.

The thing that hasn't been talked about concerning Bogut's comments about Kobe Bryant is how that could affect his earning potential. Bogut is rumored to be getting a sports drink endorsement, and has already signed a Nike endorsement deal worth $6.7 million over the next five years. But Thomas Murrell, an expert on media training and personal branding, said recently that sponsors were said to be very unhappy with Bogut's comments in his first global NBA media conference, when Bogut was critical of famous Australian names such as Luc Longley, Andrew Gaze and Shane Heal.

Murrell offered Bogut five tips that I think most of us could agree on following his comments about Kobe Bryant:

"Firstly, don't pass judgments on others in public, keep your personal views to yourself. Secondly, compliment, don't criticise. Thirdly, be humble. Confidence is good but those who are most influential link this with humility. Fourthly, let your actions speak for themselves. Finally, get good advisors around you. In this case, this whole mess could have been avoided with good advice and some clear thinking and coaching prior to his media conference."

[KevinBeane]

I couldn't agree more with Murrell as it applies to this situation....also, as someone who has taken many a thread with Buckeye and turned it into one about northeast Ohio, I can tell you that thread hijacking is totally okay as long as you have established yourself as a good poster (which you have) and you understand that anyone can hijack it right back. :)

[Noon]

Originally posted by tobynosker
I don't want to get too off topic, but my favorite Cloud County Community College Men's Basketball game I ever had the privelege of calling was at the 2003 Men's Region VI Basketball Tournament when the Thunderbirds and the Cougars of Barton County Community College met in the second-round. With Barton County ranked fourth nationally, after having blown us out twice during the Conference season, and having one of the most talented Junior College starting lineups I have seen (Robert Whaley, Randy Pulley, Rodney Epperson, Justin Rose and Nouha Diakite), I was dreading going to the Salina Bicentennial Center that day.

How Cloud County was able to pull of such an upset is beyond me? Since that game, the Cloud County Community College Men's Basketball program has done nothing but rise. Last year, they hosted their first ever first-round Region VI Tournament game, while also taking then-three time reigning Region VI Tournament Champions Coffeyville Red Ravens down to the wire in a second-round match-up at the Bi-Center. While Barton County unfortunately has had a world of problems since that season.

I can't wait for the Barton County Community College Men's Basketball Tournament on November 25th and 26th. Cloud County matches up with the defending NJCAA Division II National Champion Brown Mackie Lions (I went to High School with Coach Francis Flax's daughter and follow his son's playing career at Southeast of Saline High School, and I have a true admiration for what that man has been able to accomplish at Brown Mackie and with the Kansas Cagerz), before taking on Westchester out of New York.

Besides, Barton County has the best hospitality room and the best statisticians in the Jayhawk Conference. Something that makes my job happier and easier. Especially when we are getting beat like we usually do in Great Bend.

I was there for that game. Whaley (a recent 2nd round draft pick by Utah who has the potential to be better than Bogut but will probably half-ass his way out of a contract: there's your somewhat on-topic post, *****es) cried so much I couldn't talk to him. Even Ryan Wolf shed a few tears. That team could have finished in the top-6 of the Big 12 that year.

It's funny, but one of my favorite games came at Cloud in '04 when the T-birds were up by eight with like :48 seconds to go. The crowd had already done the "hey hey hey, goodbye" chant, only to have Justin Rose score eight straight points and have Barton to go on and win it in overtime.

And I wouldn't worry about getting beat in GB this year. With the guys they have coming in, it's could get a little rough.

Return to your Bogut bashing/supporting.

[doublee]

Originally posted by Marc
I don't think that's fair at all, blackdogsong. I haven't seen a lot of Utah games, but I did watch him when Utah played Kentucky and I payed a lot of attention to him. He is very agile and has guard-like footwork, I would compare him more to Dirk Nowitzki with less of an outside shot than the slow-footed Longley and Bradley.

Actually, the comparisons by the NBA draftniks was to Vlade or Brad Miller which seems to me about right. He will be a good passer out of the low post and probably be a guy who averages 13-15 ppg and 7-9 rpg over the bulk of his career and will be considered a nice player a-la Miller/Vlade but never really be that star player. He does not strike me as someone who does everything adequately, but, except for passing, does not really excel at any certain area of the game.

I am not so sure about his footwork though. At all of the pre-draft workouts quickness and agility were where he graded out the lowest. In fact he graded out as one of the least athletic players at the Chicago pre-draft camp.

[doublee]

Well, Bogut did not fare any better in his second Summer League game going 1 for 7 and scoring only six points and collecting four fouls before getting tossed out against the Pacers' squad. He also got torched on the defensive end allowing David Harrison to drop 14 on him in the first half of the game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2110951

[blackdogsong]

again, i dont like to write guys off so quick but... Bogut is getting beat up by guys who aren't even going to be playing the NBA next season and the idea is that he is going to start right away?

his comment about being tossed was "I needed a rest anyway.''

more signs of a bad attitude?

[Marc]

Originally posted by doublee
Actually, the comparisons by the NBA draftniks was to Vlade or Brad Miller which seems to me about right. He will be a good passer out of the low post and probably be a guy who averages 13-15 ppg and 7-9 rpg over the bulk of his career and will be considered a nice player a-la Miller/Vlade but never really be that star player. He does not strike me as someone who does everything adequately, but, except for passing, does not really excel at any certain area of the game.

I am not so sure about his footwork though. At all of the pre-draft workouts quickness and agility were where he graded out the lowest. In fact he graded out as one of the least athletic players at the Chicago pre-draft camp.
Right, he is more of a Vlade or Brad Miller guy, NOT a Longley or Bradley type guy, so we agree. I never said he'd be a superstar. As for how he was graded, who was he compared to? Of course he's slower than athletic swingmen.

[doublee]

He graded out poorly in comparison to the other players at the Chicago pre-draft camp.

[buckeyefan78]

Hakim Warrick had 33 points in his latest summer league game. Hey toby, who was that guy who drafted him #19 again? ;)

[tobynosker]

Was that God?

[Shawndo]

toby,

I do believe that was your shortest post ever :-)

[trayhezy]

Originally posted by buckeyefan78
Hakim Warrick had 33 points in his latest summer league game. Hey toby, who was that guy who drafted him #19 again? ;)




Originally posted by tobynosker
Was that God?

And God resides in Memphis!!! I must find him so that I may have my blinded basketball eyes opened to the potential greatness of the Memphis Grizzlies. I am starting to feel that championship spirit in the air. I am actually starting to believe that it can be done in the next few years.

[buckeyefan78]

Shawn..

It was his shortest post, but it was the correct answer !!!!

tray...

Sit back and enjoy the ride. God it must be nice to have a class act running your show instead of an ass clown. Surprised to see Stromile Swift leave, then again, we can't understand all the moves of God. He works in mysterious ways!!

[doublee]

Swift was kind of a foregone conclusion which is why they drafted Warrick in the first place.

[WFUguy8]

no matter how good/ bad bogut/bynum are the last thing any rookie should do coming into the league is to insult two of the most talented players... bynum was at least trying to make a joke, whereas bogut was taking a real shot at bryant... coming soon a poster of kobe dunking with his nuts in boguts face

[Noon]

With all the problems Kobe has been through, I think maybe he shouldn't be putting his nuts in anyone's face.

/end unnecessary cheap shot.

[Tarkus]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:....

Maybe unnecessary but well earned....

[190 Octane]

I don't put a lot of credence in how one performs in Rookie League games. If those were an apt indicator, Leandro Barbosa would be a superstar, and not a turnover waiting to happen. So, in that regard, I don't expect Bogut to show up and be a Sam Bowie.

However, I do agree taking shots at Kobe before ever stepping out on the floor is stupid. The best thing for a rookie to do is to let his play speak for him. Same goes for the "I need the rest" comment after being tossed against the Pacers.

[Shawndo]

Originally posted by Noon
With all the problems Kobe has been through, I think maybe he shouldn't be putting his nuts in anyone's face.

/end unnecessary cheap shot.

LMAO! Good one :lol:

Tarkus! You're back!
:party: