The Biggest Group of Hypocrites...

[Ellis]

I have been posting on a white supremacy forum. I ran into the boards after I ran across their site about how bad a person Martin Luther King was. That site had a link to their forums.

What is scary is that this group has almost 100,000 members. They have a large group following online and it is scary.

Now, I went in with an open mind, as far as their views. I knew that the odds of them talking me into that whites are a superior race was about infinity to nothing, but they have views other than just ‘whites are superior.’ They have some reasonable arguments. They all have very strong opinions about having small government, which reflects a lot of people’s views on government. But after that, there views are just irrational.

I started posting about my views on how we are all just people and it isn’t fair or rational to look down on another race. They have a number of arguments that they make they are all just completely absurd.

The first thing that is completely appalling about their arguments is about Hitler. When I said that these people are evil for admiring a person who mass murdered millions of people and tortured people, they said that I think this only because it is what I was taught in school. They said that our schools are pumping us with crap, when they say that Hitler killed millions of people. I agree, a lot of the history taught in our schools is slanted to make America look like some great place that is morally right. But how can you try and fight that the schools make this stuff up about Hitler? The pictures and the stories from people from Germany tell it all. There is no way a rational person can say that they are all phony.

Another argument they make is that those of us who believe in equal rights are sheep and just go with what society wants us to think. That may be true about other things, but not when it comes to equal rights. Any rational human being can realize that we are all just people and all people deserve the same rights.

They found it ironic that I said I admired Martin Luther King for fighting his for people and I tore them apart for fighting for their people. The thing is that King didn’t preach hate, like these white pride people do. He just wanted everyone to be treated fairly, which his people weren’t.

The reason I call him them hypocrites is that they absolutely love small government, but they want us to export people of all other races and they want us to stop immigration. These guys talk call America a communist nation, but these white pride people want us to export other races and stop immigration. Isn’t that the exact opposite of what a laissez-fair government would do?

Also, they hate big government, but they run their web site like Nazis (no pun intended.) They read every post before it is publicly posted and they lock down all of the threads except a few for people who don’t fit into their group. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Now I know that all of you guys already know that these guys are scum and hypocrites. I just wanted to let you know of my experience. They haven’t banned me yet, but they have blocked my access to most of their boards and lock down all of my threads. I don’t troll their boards, I just put out a reasonable argument, open to responses, and then they lock it down.

[da12ken]

I love how racist fools like those folk talk about how America is their rightful country, as if the colonists didn't steal it from the Natives. Hey, if immigrants outnumber whites in a few years that's just Manifest Destiny too, right?

Poetic justice, along with common sense and decency, seem to be notions that hypocrites like the people you mentioned can't comprehend.

[Tarkus]

Sic 'em, Ellis....:thumbup:

[catman]

I am in full agreement about this gentlemen. Those that want to seperate races, no matter what the color they want to keep out, are losing a bit of perspective. To prejudge one is to eliminate a chance to learn something from that person.

[catman]

By the way Ellis, what are you doing posting at a White Supremacist board?

[Ellis]

By the way Ellis, what are you doing posting at a White Supremacist board?

As I said, I ran across it while looking at some Martin Luther King sites. There was a site about how evil King was, with a link to this cult's website. I went on it and decided that the least I can do is join and try and give them hell, but try and be fair at the same time :lol:

[catman]

Just be sure that if you tell them about the Racoon on your porch to completely spell the word.
I might have some fun on one, but I'd get banned right away. They are as you say, hypocritical and I believe I'd call them on it.
Best idea for me is just to avoid the pleasure.

[Ellis]

I just got banned. I gave it a good run for the one day that I spent on the boards :D

I think after I called them evil in my 4 last posts, they got fed up :D

[Tarkus]

:lol:

Sooo...where are you off to now? KKK Forever, Hitler Youths United, etc.??? :P

[Ellis]

:lol:

Sooo...where are you off to now? KKK Forever, Hitler Youths United, etc.??? :P

I don't know. I tryed to join another message board like that, but they still haven't accepted my registration.

I think they banned me after I made a satiric post about how great the KKK is, making fun of them pretty bad :D Also, calling them evil a lot didn't help either :D

I want to join another one, but I know what will happen. They won't listen and I will get banned.

[Tarkus]

I want to join another one, but I know what will happen. They won't listen and I will get banned.

Well don't give up...

You can't change them all at once. Don't get discouraged...

You have to change 1 skinhead at a time most likely....;)

[catman]

I agree. Like I said, I'd likely get banned with my first post there, so I won't even bother checking it out.
It might be good for an evening's entertainment, however.......

[bama4256]

Hate groups will always be around unfortunately.

This country was founded by white Europeans more or less, but times have changed. Would the country be better off if it was 90 or 99 percent white? I'll let you answer that yourself.

I do believe violent crime would be down some. I've found out one thing in my travels around this world. Most races or colors perfer to be in their own group(or associate with their own race mainly) and serve their own interests.

That's true in Spain-like between the normal Spaniards and the Castillian in the north and so on as in other countries.

Different tribes in Africa won't nothing to do with other tribes. I guess it is just normal in most cases. Not saying it is right.

My Bible teaches to love everyone and treat everyone the same. No matter of color or race or whatever. But man will be man.

[Marc]

Ever hear of the eugenics movement? Back in the mid-20th century, thousands of Americans considered to be feebleminded were killed in efforts to clean the gene pool. We're learning about this in one of my courses, and it is shocking. In fact, that movement is what inspired the Nazis to launch their movement and come into power.

Another shocking thing we learned about in the same time was how every ivy league freshman had to be photographed in the nude in the Great Ivy League Nude Posture Scandal. Look it up, it's equally as shocking.

[kirby]

Ellis, I must assume that you're young, energetic, hopeful, and idealistic. If one has been around the block a few times the REALITY meter kicks in. Reality is that there is a very good reason blacks, as a race, are held in contempt by many other people(s). That reason: They conduct themselves very badly.

This very opinion is expressed not only by other races, but by some those born from African-descent. Notably, Chris Rock amusingly expressed his disdain for N's. I bet you've heard his rant, haven't you? Bill Cosby has often been HIGHLY critical of "his own." Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson has also done so.

The Reverend's comments are just OUTSTANDING.


Jesse Lee Peterson: About five years ago, in a debate before the National Association of Black Journalists, I stated that if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years. The audience, shall we say, disagreed with me strongly. Now I have to disagree with me. I gave blacks too much credit. It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your horrible conduct, black man, is the core of Mr. Peterson's observations.

It's spot on.

[tobynosker]

The American Nazi Party, David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Kaczynski, Ku Klux Klan, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Dennis Rader, etc.....



Thank God people don't judge me based on my skin color, solely on the basis of the idiotic and unforgiveable acts that have been committed by members of my own race.

[kirby]

Yo yo yo, toby, your angst is entirely misdirected. Let's look at some fun FACTS, shall we?

In the 25-29 age group about 1 in 13 black men in the United States are in prison.

Compare that with about 1 in 100 white men in the United States being in prison.

"Your" people are doing mighty fine, no?

[IntheNet]

I have been posting on a white supremacy forum. I ran into the boards after I ran across their site about how bad a person Martin Luther King was. That site had a link to their forums. What is scary is that this group has almost 100,000 members. They have a large group following online and it is scary...

Question Ellis...

Should Latin people have an advocacy organization? Should Asian people have an advocacy organization? Should Black people have an advocacy organization? Should White people have an advocacy organization?

Each cultural, ethinic, and race group in the United States serves as an advocacy group for its members...

Perhaps the folks you encountered are a bit peeved about their children being blamed for slavery, their children being denied scholarships due to affirmative action, and their children being put down for a generation or more for no reason other than the white color of their skin.

Perhaps... you need to examine a subject from all sides... I am not for a minute advocating some of the "white supremacy hate" that you evidently encountered, however for more than a generation some innocent kids have been made to carry a burden that shouldn't be theirs to carry...and who is looking out for them? Where is their national organization and advocacy group?

[Richard the Lionheart]

The folks he encountered, I can almost assure you, are nothing of the sort. These are the same kinds of people who hated black people when they were in chains, or when they were eating at separate restaurants and going to separate schools. Look, I don't like affirmative action and any racial distinctions made by the government any more than you seem to, but this is completely different. These people would hate black people no matter what the government did, or what scholarship some school handed out was. They may offer these up as reasons, so they seem a bit more rational, but its not true. Talk to a racist. After you get through his shield of b.s. crap about scholarships and all that, you will find out the real reasons for their hate...and they're petty, ignorant, and monstrous.

[Richard the Lionheart]

I don't know how to delete my posts. Man, I really screwed this up. I edited the wrong one. I was trying to quote from IntheNet's third paragraph regarding affirmative action and scholarships, but it got all screwed up. Anyway, that is what I'm addressing in my post.

[Ellis]

Don't worry Ricky, we all do it :D

Look, I don't see it as ' I want to be with my own people.' The whole point is that we are all people. One day when I was in kindergarten, I came home and told my mom that I made a new best friend. My mom asked me to describe him and I just said short, dark, curly hair. We went and looked in the yearbook (which we already had) and we finally found him. My mom asked "why didn't you just say that he was black?" I didn't know why. I just didn't know race then. And man, I would do anything to be like that again. Just not acknowledge race. The world would be so much better if we were like that. We are all human beings. We all have the same emotions, the same dreams, and the same hopes. That makes us all the same.

Can I see why racists could be mad about how society hates them and blames a lot of the problems in the past on them, but tough. Fix it. Don't complain about it and continue to the things that people don't like you for in the first place.

[BigBuddhaPup]

This country was all ready founded when it was "founded"...

MLK wasn't for "his people", he was for "all people"... his history is very interesting, and he had some transgressions, but his overall message was brilliant... he has to be one of the premier Americans of all time...

All discrimination at its core has ignorance. Unfortunately, human ignorance like human intelligence has no bounds. On the bright side, from antedotal point of view, I have seen a lot of changes in our society, I can only hope that we march forward.. I think John Lennon's Imagine spoke to this ideal.. no, John, you aren't the only one...

[carter08]

Ellis

I think i have found the board you described.
The place is horrible
The people are complete hypocrits

[NYG Babe 28]

The American Nazi Party, David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Kaczynski, Ku Klux Klan, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Dennis Rader, etc.....



Thank God people don't judge me based on my skin color, solely on the basis of the idiotic and unforgiveable acts that have been committed by members of my own race.

Excellent point. I can't believe I am reading insinuations by some members on here that there would be less violence if there were more white people and less black people... are you people serious? You should never judge a person based on the color of their skin, race or any other physical characteristic. That is the most ignorant and absurd thing I have ever heard. It is people like this that are the "REAL" problem with society. I would not want to be judged by the actions of other's based upon skin color or race... that is just ludicrous. We are all one race the human race!

[wufpax]

:cheers: Babe!

[Tarkus]

Easy, Babe...:P

Like any site, we have the occasional attention getters who crave our indignation. Posts like kirby's just makes us wonder what a "kirby" is, nothing more...;)

[NYG Babe 28]

Sorry Tarkus,
I am very passionate and I have a big mouth... LOL. It makes things interesting... yikes :D

[Heathen]

My Bible teaches to love everyone and treat everyone the same. No matter of color or race or whatever. But man will be man.

As long as they believe in your God right?

[Tarkus]

No, no, no, Babe...

Whip 'em good...:thumbup:

After they've worked so hard to earn it, we wouldn't be being fair if we held back their "reward"....:D

[Ellis]

As long as they believe in your God right?

lol. So true about religion.

[Richard the Lionheart]

Not everyone with faith thinks like that, however. C.S. Lewis believed that God would welcome anyone who had faith, no matter what they chose to call their God. It's hard enough to have faith in something in this world to hate people for having faith in something so slightly different its almost laughable. I've always been too busy struggling with the notion of whether there is a higher power out there in the night, to have time for determining whether God wants us to believe like the Methodists, the Baptists, the Muslims, or the Jews. It's hard to believe any human can pin-point the wishes of a higher power to something so exact.

[kirby]

I can't believe I am reading insinuations by some members on here that there would be less violence if there were more white people and less black people... are you people serious?

Serious? Are you?

Again ......

In the 25-29 age group about 1 in 13 black men in the United States are in prison.

Compare that with about 1 in 100 white men in the United States being in prison.


If you choose to deny FACT and live in some fantasy dream world based on what feels right to you, have at it. But just don't expect reality-based folks to not come in and set the record straight.

The numbers don't lie.


Posts like kirby's just makes us wonder what a "kirby" is, nothing more...

Posts like yours make me wonder what sort of reality people live in.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.

[Tarkus]

Posts like yours make me wonder what sort of reality people live in.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.

:lol:

You're a gas, kirby...

You rarely show up but when you do, it's usually with a can of gas & a match.

But thanks for the chuckles...:P

[AmpleSound]

As long as they believe in your God right?

Heathen, that's quite a ridiculous thing to say!!! I'm fairly appalled by that statement... Yes people take Christianity, and defy its true meaning. I, however take no sides as to what you or anyone else wants to believe! I bet most Christians don't even know the actual definition of it... Do I care, no, I just hope they stay true, and actually learn what Jesus tried to teach EVERYONE! He taught us to love one another, not hate, and not judge those who do wrong. If He was willing to die, so ALL of us could be free in death, then is that such a bad thing? It's better to believe in some kind of afterlife, than to believe in nothing at all... To me you are the hypocrite, and I am the fool for even trying. Though I will never stop trying to show what a "true Christian" is, and that's a Desciple of Christ!

[BigBuddhaPup]

As long as they believe in your God right?

I am just like all monotheists, but I believe in one less god...:D

[BigBuddhaPup]

Serious? Are you?

Again ......

In the 25-29 age group about 1 in 13 black men in the United States are in prison.

Compare that with about 1 in 100 white men in the United States being in prison.


If you choose to deny FACT and live in some fantasy dream world based on what feels right to you, have at it. But just don't expect reality-based folks to not come in and set the record straight.

The numbers don't lie.




Posts like yours make me wonder what sort of reality people live in.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.


The more important question is: What do the numbers mean?

I would suggest there is a huge economic divide between Causasians and African-Americans... the major culprit is lack of educational opportunity...our educational system keeps our society down, especially minorities...

[BigBuddhaPup]

Heathen, that's quite a ridiculous thing to say!!! I'm fairly appalled by that statement... Yes people take Christianity, and defy its true meaning. I, however take no sides as to what you or anyone else wants to believe! I bet most Christians don't even know the actual definition of it... Do I care, no, I just hope they stay true, and actually learn what Jesus tried to teach EVERYONE! He taught us to love one another, not hate, and not judge those who do wrong. If He was willing to die, so ALL of us could be free in death, then is that such a bad thing? It's better to believe in some kind of afterlife, than to believe in nothing at all... To me you are the hypocrite, and I am the fool for even trying. Though I will never stop trying to show what a "true Christian" is, and that's a Desciple of Christ!

I would weigh into the issue of religion and Christianity, but I will wait until posters become more accustomed to my very blunt objective attitude about our world.... Heathen, good point... Ample, Christianity or any other religious belief has a tendency to be very personalized...

[kirby]

I would suggest there is a huge economic divide between Causasians and African-Americans... the major culprit is lack of educational opportunity...our educational system keeps our society down, especially minorities...

Ahh yes, the "system" in America has kept the black man down, and forced him, in overwhelming percentages, to go into a life of crime.

Tell ya what, link me up to some data showing the opposite case to be true. Where is it on planet earth that the black man has ascended, and the white man left trapped in a "system" which ultimately leads him to, in overwhelming percentages, a life of crime?

Pass me a Snickers.

[CKFresh]

Ahh yes, the "system" in America has kept the black man down, and forced him, in overwhelming percentages, to go into a life of crime.

Tell ya what, link me up to some data showing the opposite case to be true. Where is it on planet earth that the black man has ascended, and the white man left trapped in a "system" which ultimately leads him to, in overwhelming percentages, a life of crime?

Pass me a Snickers.

Kirby, here's something to think about. When you break it down by ecomonic status, you will see that lower class whites are just as likely to be in jail as lower class blacks. And rich blacks are just as likely to be in jail is rich whites. You are a moron if you don't think it is economics.

[RavenPoe]

Is this Kirby guy for real? It has to be some kind of joke. People like this don't still exist, do they?

[Cure]

Poe

Apparently they do... makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't it?

[bearsr4real]

unfortunately, they do. and believe it or not, they're growing in numbers. i don't know if i'm the only one that's noticed this (and judging by my current company, i doubt i am) but racism in america is actually getting WORSE. and it's due to a point that mr. kirby has so brilliantly illustrated. IGNORANCE. not to say kirby is racist, in fact i'm pretty sure he's not, but it's apparent that he has no clue what he's talking about and yet his opinion only grows in strength when opposed. where's the culprit you ask? you didn't ask? oh well, i'm telling you anyway. it's LACK OF FREAKING EDUCATION - ESPECIALLY in inner-city schools. whose fault is this you ask? well, i don't care if you did, i'll tell you. it's 100% THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION with their HORRIBLE "no child left behind" idea - an idea that even my RADICAL REPUBLICAN family (teachers, by the way) thought to be a terrible idea. so let's see, bush wanted to "fix" education, so he ruined it. he wanted to "jumpstart" the economy, so he tanked it. he wanted to "eliminate terrorism" so he fueled it. it baffles me when people don't realize just HOW MUCH this idiot is going to affect our country for YEARS to come. it's like smoking. one year of smoking takes six years to reverse. think of what that would mean for america if the same held true for screw ups.

[CKFresh]

Yeah, the racist theory was debunked years ago. He probably still believes that races are in different phases of evolution. For him, that fact that there are black millionaires, black intellectuals, black people successful in every aspect of life, means nothing. He sees what he wants to see.

[RavenPoe]

White people and Chinese people developed more quickly than African people because they lived in the north. They were forced to endure cold winters and necessity is the mother of invention. By the time Africa would have started naturally advancing, it was already being colonized by Britain and France. But this is all stuff you learn in grade school. Did you attend grade school, Kirby?

[kirby]

Kirby, here's something to think about. When you break it down by ecomonic status, you will see that lower class whites are just as likely to be in jail as lower class blacks. And rich blacks are just as likely to be in jail is rich whites. You are a moron if you don't think it is economics.

You didn't answer my challenge.

Try again? Link me up.

Where on earth has the black man ascended, and where has the white man been "trapped" in a hopless system which ultimately leads him to go into crime in overwhelming percentages?

[CKFresh]

Kirby, I just made a point, dispute that please. Tell me why black people at equal economic levels are no more likely to commit crime than whites? Explain sir stupid.

[RavenPoe]

No where. And I just explained why. They've been economically disadvantaged in every country in the world including their own. This is not a debate and you are in need of psychological help.

[CKFresh]

Kirby, look at it like this. Break it down by neighborhoods. Blacks who live in Malibu for instance, are no more likely to commit crime than whites in Malibu. Likewise, whites who live in Compton are just as likely to participate in crime as the blacks who live there.

[RavenPoe]

He logged off quick in the face of logic. I can't believe there's a white supremacist on these boards. Maybe he was only joking. I hope so.

BTW, Bearsr4real, that is the definition of a racist.

[grifter]

Serious? Are you?

Again ......

In the 25-29 age group about 1 in 13 black men in the United States are in prison.

Compare that with about 1 in 100 white men in the United States being in prison.


If you choose to deny FACT and live in some fantasy dream world based on what feels right to you, have at it. But just don't expect reality-based folks to not come in and set the record straight.

The numbers don't lie.




Posts like yours make me wonder what sort of reality people live in.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.

What your numbers don't stat in them is that blacks get harsher punishments than whites for the most part. Though if you want to use numbers as your focal points than I got to ask you how many black serial killers or serial rapists do you know of? None if any at all. Now how many white serial killers and serial rapists do you know of? Almost all I will presume. How many of them white serial killers and serial rapist are white men like me? All but one I can think of really. Has you said yourself numbers don't lie. Post like your prove to me rascism has a long way to go before it is abolished.:cool:

[bearsr4real]

if kirby really wants to get in-depth on falsehoods, i can name a pretty superficial example to suit your superficial beliefs. umm....RAP MUSIC!?!?! HELLO!?!? we have...one...ONE white guy that's "ascended" while the rest of the "black culture" made MILLIONS (actually, BILLIONS) of dollars off suburban white kids. put that in your ignorance pipe and smoke it

[grifter]

You didn't answer my challenge.

Try again? Link me up.

Where on earth has the black man ascended, and where has the white man been "trapped" in a hopless system which ultimately leads him to go into crime in overwhelming percentages?

How about in america! There are plenty of Black Men that have ascended to power and wealth, here in this land of oppurtunity. And there are plenty of white people who have descended into a life of crime and gang activity. Now a good question for you good sir, what was the color of the man who bought cocaine, and essentially crack, over to america.................no answer yet..........of I'll tell you, he was white. Now what is the color of the man who invented that lovely invention we all know and use called the air conditioner.....................black. I know more white drug dealers and users than black ones. All your numbers prove is how impartial the sys is towards minorities.




Ignorance isn't always bliss and people that think in such a way as you have exhibited prove such.

[kirby]

They've been economically disadvantaged in every country in the world including their own.

Hey, if they've been "economically disadvantaged" in every country, in every time, then I'm pretty sure we can come to a conclusion.

Just an awful string of damn bad luck.

Well, I'm hopeful and optomistic at heart. They'll get this thing turned around.

[RavenPoe]

"They" formed the first civilizations on this earth. "They" were responsible for the very first governments. "They" are the fathers of society and the fathers of man. They rose to power long before the whites. Too bad for them it isn't colder in Africa and they didn't need to continue advancing when white people did. It seems all those winters have also frozen the hearts of many whites as well.

[themush]

Just so I don't have to go though 4 pages of stuff, can someone catch me up?

[RavenPoe]

Well.....Kirby's a white supremacist. Not sure I can give much more than that. I'm still having a little trouble digesting it.

[kirby]

The dreaded warm Africa doomed the black man to a life of crime in America. That's where Raven has taken us, mush.

Just go back and read MY posts and you'll get along just fine.

[themush]

Man I'm gonna have to go back and read alot of what has been argued. Forgive me but, I'm off to bed. I'll pick up where we left off.

[kirby]

Explain sir stupid.

You are a moron.

There are also a few other remarks directed toward me which are "on the cusp" of being personal insults.

Are personal insults fair game here? I was told early on that they are not allowed. Someone want to jump in and make it clear?

If they're fair game then I'm good with it. Oooooh yes, I'll be more than happy to roll that way.

[PPKA]

gotta agree with you there Kirby

lets just say this is an abberration.

I don't like those words........stupid/idiot/moron

and I'm not getting into this conversation because I'm a firm believer in Martin Luther King and the US Constitution.

all men/women are created equal. what they choose to do with that equality is up to them.

culture/religion should not be an issue.

people spend to much time arguing that their beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong. well guess what..........nobody here or any place else is EVER going to change my values. nor would I expect to change yours.

I'll just have faith that you are doing the right thing unless violence has become your weapon. at that point, I will defend my values in kind.

this argument should be hosed down with whip cream. and a couple donuts

[BigBuddhaPup]

How and Why seem to questions at the moment...

Raven's point of imperialism of the African continent is valid, they were not as advanced as the Europeans... the continent as well as the people were exploited... it is a very simple conclusion to come to if anyone wants to crack open a history book... since that time it has been struggle for Africans worldwide to achieve social and economic equality.

In today's world to achieve both, education is needed... it opens doors for economic advancement...with economic advancement come the clout to cause political/social change... This hypothesis can be applied to any disenfranchised race, gender, ethicity around world... In this country, we do our people a disserve by not giving them an appropriate education, it keeps our people impoverished, which the greatest percentage(not number) are minorities...

[AmpleSound]

I would weigh into the issue of religion and Christianity, but I will wait until posters become more accustomed to my very blunt objective attitude about our world.... Heathen, good point... Ample, Christianity or any other religious belief has a tendency to be very personalized...


BBP, Christianity in most cases yes I would agree with you. If you haven't read it I suggest this, read "Why I Am Not A Christian" by Bertrand Russell. He talks about many valid points as to what's wrong with Christianity now days. This was back in the 20's or 30's when he wrote this, I think...
Here's the link http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

Like I stated, and wished you would have read more into my post... TRUE Christians are just that, desciples of Christ not willing to stoop to low levels and betray mankind (force them into any choices). Instead to love them for who they are, and hope for them to better understand. It's like beating a dead horse with a lot of Atheists, and Agnostics in my life, but I still won't give up hope!

[BigBuddhaPup]

BBP, Christianity in most cases yes I would agree with you. If you haven't read it I suggest this, read "Why I Am Not A Christian" by Bertrand Russell. He talks about many valid points as to what's wrong with Christianity now days. This was back in the 20's or 30's when he wrote this, I think...
Here's the link http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

Like I stated, and wished you would have read more into my post... TRUE Christians are just that, desciples of Christ not willing to stoop to low levels and betray mankind (force them into any choices). Instead to love them for who they are, and hope for them to better understand. It's like beating a dead horse with a lot of Atheists, and Agnostics in my life, but I still won't give up hope!

Yep, read it many moons ago..

Isn't the duty of true Christians to testify their faith to all? Sometimes that might come through as love of your fellow man..other times it might be speaking to others about your faith... or leading your life accordance with the scriptures? I would suggest to be a true Christian it would be a mandate to save all the souls that one could for God's glory, to denounce anything that is against the scripture. I don't think relativism falls into the idea of a true Christian... I say if a person is a Christian, then be a Christian, not pseudo-Christian, embrace it all 100% percent... In return I suggest that atheists be atheists 100%, I don't agree with scripture, I live my life by facts not mythologies/metaphysics, there is no god, etc... be who you are...I applaud you if that is what your deeper meaning was to your statement...

Happy Holidays..

[Heathen]

There are also a few other remarks directed toward me which are "on the cusp" of being personal insults.

Are personal insults fair game here? I was told early on that they are not allowed. Someone want to jump in and make it clear?

Please see TEH RULES (http://www.sports-central.org/other/community_guidelines.php).

Personal Attacks

In order to maintain a positive atmosphere, no personal attacks or insults will be tolerated. While discussions may become heated, it is not an excuse to result to attacks or insults. There is a difference between a passionate, respectful discussion and one that delves into personal matters. Think of it as debating issues, not individuals. When the line is crossed, the discussion may be closed by the moderation team. Violators will be warned and potentially banned.

[Cure]

Would referring to him as a racist be considered a personal attack? Because that seems to be what he is saying.

[Heathen]

Would referring to him as a racist be considered a personal attack? Because that seems to be what he is saying.

Yeah this thread is getting a little out of control here.

THERE IS ZERO TOLERANCE FOR RACIST REMARKS ON THESE BOARDS!!!!

I am not closing this thread but will be monitoring it closely and will close it of it continues to get out of hand. Race threads ALWAYS stir up controversy and passion.

Consider this a little warning.....

[CKFresh]

Kirby you still have argued my orinigal point. Have I proven your theory wrong? Explain please. It's sort of tough to argue a theory that was proven wrong over half a century ago isn't it? That be like try to argue the magic bullet theory.

[buckeyefan78]

(pushes the button)

"We're now at DEFCON 2."

[grifter]

Kirby you still have argued my orinigal point. Have I proven your theory wrong? Explain please. It's sort of tough to argue a theory that was proven wrong over half a century ago isn't it? That be like try to argue the magic bullet theory.

He still hasn't countered any of my points yet. Don't feel to bad though my mom is kind of like that in a way. She doesn't necesarily hate em but she is mad that I moved in with a latina. She has gotten over it a bit though I think she is waiting for the 32in LCD TV i was getting her for xmas

[BigBuddhaPup]

(pushes the button)

"We're now at DEFCON 2."

"Would you like to play a game?"

"How about ThermoNuclear War?"

:eek:

[buckeyefan78]

"Would you like to play a game?"

"How about ThermoNuclear War?"

:eek:

My ass got caught twice before I finally snuck in to see War Games.

So I learned two lessons from that movie:

1. Technology will doom us all.
2. Persistence really does pay off.

Back to whatever was going on in here...

[kirby]

Kirby you still have argued my orinigal point. Have I proven your theory wrong? Explain please. It's sort of tough to argue a theory that was proven wrong over half a century ago isn't it? That be like try to argue the magic bullet theory.

Look at you.

I asked YOU a question, and YOU didn't give reply. Instead of answering my question you asked me a question, directed personal insults at me, and now continue to beg for me to answer your question.

Back and forth dialogue doesn't work that way.

kirby asked: Where is it on planet earth that the black man has ascended, and the white man left trapped in a "system" which ultimately leads him to, in overwhelming percentages, a life of crime?

[grifter]

Or you could answer my ?'s of which I had asked without insulting you. Unless you don't like the answers you might come up with.

[kirby]

Grifter, since I posed the first question and you did not give reply to it, I assume you concede that point and acknowledge that there is no place on earth where the black man has ascended and where the white man has been left in a "system" which ultimately leads him, in overwhelming percentages, to a life of crime.

If you admit that to be true then I'll answer your questions about serial killers, inventions, cocaine, etc .....

[CKFresh]

kirby, we have answered you question and said NOWHERE. We have explained why but you like to ignore these facts. For you, the fact that Africa was colonized and exploited by white men means nothing. It only matters to you that white people stay in power.

Ok now....

How do you explain the fact that at equal economic levels, whites are just as likely to commit crime as blacks? Likewise, blacks recieve HARSHER PUNISHMENTS for similar crimes, that is fact. So please explain then, if whites are superior, why do they commit crime at the same rate at equal economic levels? For anyone who can see the difference between fact and opinion, it is clear that crime is related to economic standing, not race.

[kirby]

Sometimes threads can go off track. Let's recap.

Tobynosker put up a post bemoaning the horrors of "his" race, the white race. I replied to Toby by citing stats showing that whites crime in the United States is a very small fraction of black crime.

BBPup then came in and blamed the extemely high black crime rate on the educational system in this country. I replied to that by asking him why is then that we don't see the opposite trend played out elsewhere in the world -- with the black man ascending and the white man turning to crime, because the system has screwed him over.

Certainly somewhere we would see the white man doomed by a dreaded "system". And likewise, blacks have all of the same opportunites in MANY places around the world to do well for themselves.

But, we don't see it.

Hence, the conclusion is that it is something other than the system that has caused the crime rates to be so grossly askew.


if whites are superior, why do they commit crime at the same rate at equal economic levels?

If plastic was as strong as metal it wouldn't break as easily.

Prominant blacks such as Bill Cosby and Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson don't pull punches, twist things, or goofily shift blame for what is so very clear before our eyes.

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson: if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years.

[grifter]

Grifter, since I posed the first question and you did not give reply to it, I assume you concede that point and acknowledge that there is no place on earth where the black man has ascended and where the white man has been left in a "system" which ultimately leads him, in overwhelming percentages, to a life of crime.

If you admit that to be true then I'll answer your questions about serial killers, inventions, cocaine, etc .....

I already said my answer and that is here in America. Now while a black man hasn't been a president............yet, there are alot of blacks that have ascended to a life of wealth and power and on the flip side there are alot of whites who have gone into a life of crime and illegal doings thanks to the poor education sys. and the areas that they live in, same for any race. The reason why your numbers dont state this is the simple fact that whites get more forgiving punishments than blacks which in effect means less ,to no jail time for the same infraction a minority person would get harsher punishments.
Also it would be wise to note that black people have made this country better in various doings while the whites were trying to put a halt on it.

Certainly somewhere we would see the white man doomed by a dreaded "system". And likewise, blacks have all of the same opportunites in MANY places around the world to do well for themselves.
No, you wont find that anywhere in the world. Why? Because whites especially americans are known for their wealth and most countries don't want to do anything outside of helping them to spend their money. Not to mention outside of Africa their isn't any other continent with a vast population of blacks to even warrant this. And since Africa is under developed and far behind the times it is a mute argument.

[kirby]

The reason why your numbers dont state this is the simple fact that whites get more forgiving punishments than blacks which in effect means less ,to no jail time for the same infraction a minority person would get harsher punishments.

You saw the stats. The numbers are not close. Certainly this "forgiving" punishement the white criminal receives isn't responsible for THAT level of disparity. C'mon now. Reality, please.


Also it would be wise to note that black people have made this country better in various doings while the whites were trying to put a halt on it.

.....Like?

[grifter]

Integration for one. various inventions that you seem to be taking for granted such as the AC. The rights for alot of minorities and women to also indulge in outside of the white man. They also showed the flaws in our democratic sys.

And the reality is still clear and plain. My brother had got caught breaking into a preachers house with 2 black friends of his and they got caught. He got off and they went to jail. So lets say 2 out of 3 were black that means 100% of them went to jail which is also 66% of those caught while the one white was told BAD YOU and sent home. 100% white went home, no jail no court and 33% of the ones caught were never punished.

[PPKA]

whip cream and donuts :cool:

[grifter]

I don't know bout the donuts but whip cream works wonders in various games with the spouse. :)

[Cure]

Kirby

I'll give you this much...I think there is a lack of national leaders in the black community...but you can't rationally tell me there is no racism in this country. You seem to be saying the high prison rate among young black men is entirely their fault, because they didn't work hard enough or something. Tell me if I'm mistaken.

[kirby]

Of course there is racism. That racism goes in ALL directions.


You seem to be saying the high prison rate among young black men is entirely their fault

If a person is put in prison who's fault is it? If it was someone else's fault then that "other" person would be the one sitting in prison. There's a thing called accountability that got tossed out the window somewhere along the line.

[CKFresh]

kirby so do you think blacks are BY NATURE more pron to crime?

You say that there is nowhere in the world where blacks have ascended above whites, and that is because whites have exploited blacks since whited knew that blacks existed. Why do you ignore some facts and use the facts that fit your agenda?

Please exlpain why it is not about economic standing. If whites at the same economic level are just as likely to commit crime, then what other explanation can you give.

[grifter]

His explantion from what I have gathered is that it is there fault to be economicly challenged. Yet he also doesn't seem to want to venture that up until recently alot of good colleges denied blacks oppurtunities to go to their schools to better their selves. Alot of blacks are still stuck in underachieving "hoods" where the teachers don't really teach. But their are signs of what they went through in the form of movies and how difficult it was and still partially is for them to advance. Remember the Titans, Glory Road, and a few others. Those are some of my utmost fav movies to watch.

[kirby]

Fresh, a few points.

1. I didn't start this thread which made distinctions between races.

2. Toby came in and said he was ashamed of the white race.

note: I wonder what would have happened if someone came in the thread saying they were ashamed of the black race. Hmmmmmm........

3. I put up stats to demonstrate the absurdity of Toby's position.

4. BBPup said those stats are due to the "system" in America.

5. I put up arguments in disent of BBPup's take.

6. A lot of y'all started screaming RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!

7. I laughed.

You need to get a grip. You're really strange.

You draw your own conclusions on why things are as they are. I doubt that I'll change your own world view. Enjoy it.

My objective in coming into this thread was to refute BBPup's silly notion, that's it.

[Montrovant]

Ellis, I must assume that you're young, energetic, hopeful, and idealistic. If one has been around the block a few times the REALITY meter kicks in. Reality is that there is a very good reason blacks, as a race, are held in contempt by many other people(s). That reason: They conduct themselves very badly.

This very opinion is expressed not only by other races, but by some those born from African-descent. Notably, Chris Rock amusingly expressed his disdain for N's. I bet you've heard his rant, haven't you? Bill Cosby has often been HIGHLY critical of "his own." Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson has also done so.

The Reverend's comments are just OUTSTANDING.


Jesse Lee Peterson: About five years ago, in a debate before the National Association of Black Journalists, I stated that if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years. The audience, shall we say, disagreed with me strongly. Now I have to disagree with me. I gave blacks too much credit. It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46440

Stop blaming the rest of the world for your horrible conduct, black man, is the core of Mr. Peterson's observations.

It's spot on.

This was your first post in the thread kirby....posted before either BBP or toby had said anything. toby posted right after this, and here is that post :

The American Nazi Party, David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Kaczynski, Ku Klux Klan, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Dennis Rader, etc.....



Thank God people don't judge me based on my skin color, solely on the basis of the idiotic and unforgiveable acts that have been committed by members of my own race.

I don't see him saying anything about being ashamed of his race. Rather, he is saying he does not want to be judged based on the actions of the criminals of his race. This was in direct response to your post and the quote within it it seems.

I won't argue crime and the effects ecomonics and education may have on it, or whether or not minorities receive greater punishment for equal crimes.

Now here's another of your posts :

Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Babe
I can't believe I am reading insinuations by some members on here that there would be less violence if there were more white people and less black people... are you people serious?

Serious? Are you?

Again ......

In the 25-29 age group about 1 in 13 black men in the United States are in prison.

Compare that with about 1 in 100 white men in the United States being in prison.


If you choose to deny FACT and live in some fantasy dream world based on what feels right to you, have at it. But just don't expect reality-based folks to not come in and set the record straight.

The numbers don't lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkus
Posts like kirby's just makes us wonder what a "kirby" is, nothing more...

Posts like yours make me wonder what sort of reality people live in.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.

I assume these are the stats you are talking about. In this post, you appear to be saying that there WOULD be less violence if there were more white people and less black people. Assuming your data is true, it certainly doesn't lead to that conclusion. Crime and violence are not synonomous. How many of those 1 in 13 black men are in prison for non-violent offenses, such as drug possesion?

So, you contradict yourself when you say your objective in coming to this thread was to refute BBP and yet you clearly posted BEFORE BBP and say as much yourself. You say that there is good reason blacks as a race are held in contempt, and you strongly imply that blacks are more violent as a race; both of these things seem to fit the definition of racism. You will probably have a hard time getting people to believe you, or even listen with an open mind to what you say, with contradictions like these.

[kirby]

I assume these are the stats you are talking about. In this post, you appear to be saying that there WOULD be less violence if there were more white people and less black people. Assuming your data is true, it certainly doesn't lead to that conclusion. Crime and violence are not synonomous.

You're out to lunch.

Blacks make up just over 12% of the U.S polulation, yet based on 2002 stats, account for..........

50% of all murders
34% of rapes
54% of robberies
34% of aggravated assaults

That 12% is overachieving in the area of violence.

Was I wrong in educating Ellis that there is a REASON why the black race is held in contempt by some people?


By the way, some folks got heated up after I replied to BBPup's post. That is what I was talking about when I said my point coming into the thread was to refute his notion. After I posted in response to BBPup some people got hysterical and went to the RACIST card. I wasn't interested in defending myself against those bogus charges of racism, I was just interested in debunking BBPup's point.

[Ellis]

You're out to lunch.

Blacks make up just over 12% of the U.S polulation, yet based on 2002 stats, account for..........

50% of all murders
34% of rapes
54% of robberies
34% of aggravated assaults

That 12% is pretty damn DEEP into violent crime.

Was I wrong in educating Ellis that there is a REASON why the black race is held in contempt by some people? Please give a source to these stats and then I will reply. (I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just want to see where you are getting this from and make sure you aren't pulling any of this out of your ass :D.)

[kirby]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/arrested/04-table43.html

[Ellis]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/arrested/04-table43.html

Ok, good source.

Kirby, we are all of the human race. Do Cardinals kill more innocent worms than blue jays? I have no ****ing clue. They are all birds. They all eat bird seed off of my porch. They all fly into my window every now and then.

It is the same with people. Someone from every race kills someone now and again. Someone from every race slips on a banana peel every now and then. I don't care who does it more. We all do it. And just as they are all birds, free to fly over the world, we are all humans, free to roam the world and build a life for ourselves.

Is Franklin Covey open on Sundays? No. And racism isn't either. Racism is closed. In fact, racism was closed down by health inspectors for being too dirty. It isn't about pointing the finger or calling out another race. It is about us all coming together and building something great.

[kirby]

One day when I was in kindergarten, I came home and told my mom that I made a new best friend. My mom asked me to describe him and I just said short, dark, curly hair. We went and looked in the yearbook (which we already had) and we finally found him. My mom asked "why didn't you just say that he was black?" I didn't know why. I just didn't know race then. And man, I would do anything to be like that again.

Do Cardinals kill more innocent worms than blue jays? I have no ****ing clue. They are all birds. They all eat bird seed off of my porch. They all fly into my window every now and then.

It is the same with people. Someone from every race kills someone now and again. Someone from every race slips on a banana peel every now and then. I don't care who does it more. We all do it. And just as they are all birds, free to fly over the world, we are all humans, free to roam the world and build a life for ourselves.


Sounds like your wish to go back to kindergarten came true. :D ;)

Ellis, I like your post, and I like the heart behind it. I agree with you. Racism is here to stay, however. It's a fact of life.

[Montrovant]

2 things kirby.

First, you have now provided new statistics for your argument. I stand by the assertion that crime does not equal violence. There are many non-violent crimes, and to simply state that more blacks in prison means blacks are violent is wrong. That was my only point.

Second, statistics for crimes commited by blacks in the US do not in any way mean anything about black people as a race. If this is a worldwide phenomenon, I certainly see the point of the argument, but if blacks do not commit a disproportionate amount of crime elsewhere, then it speaks of a societal issue and not a racial one.

Further, even should the worldwide trend be true, it does not mean blacks deserve contempt as a race. A compelling argument would be some physical difference, be it glandular or a matter of brain function or something along those lines, which would show reason why any particular race is more prone to violence and crime. If you assume the physical differences in the races of man are basically superficial (I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary), then surely you can see that the underlying cause of any excessive criminal behavior would be societal, economic, or some other factor which in no way speaks to any race as a whole.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps you feel contempt for criminals, and those who would promote/excuse a criminal lifestyle, rather than blacks? Even 1 in 13 young black men in prison is a minority, meaning the majority are NOT criminals.

I don't think you should love everyone. I sure as hell don't :thumbup: But if you're going to feel contempt, or hatred, do it because of people's actions; do it because of people's beliefs; do it because of people's personalities; don't do it because of the color of their skin. It's not reasonable or fulfilling :lol:

[Ellis]

Kirby, I just don't think you will ever get it...

[kirby]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps you feel contempt for criminals, and those who would promote/excuse a criminal lifestyle, rather than blacks?

Bingo

The opportunity to have success is available to all persons in America. You just need to have a decent work ethic, a bit of discipline, and you can make a "good" life for yourself. Yes, of course some people are born into situations that are challenging, and sometimes VERY challenging, but making excuses and blaming others for YOUR decision to go into crime won't cut the mustard. This is why I salute prominent black figures such as Bill Cosby and Rev. Peterson, who basically tell the black community to look in the mirror rather than pointing fingers at other people and other reasons for the problems within the black "community".

[BigBuddhaPup]

Sometimes threads can go off track. Let's recap.

Tobynosker put up a post bemoaning the horrors of "his" race, the white race. I replied to Toby by citing stats showing that whites crime in the United States is a very small fraction of black crime.

BBPup then came in and blamed the extemely high black crime rate on the educational system in this country. I replied to that by asking him why is then that we don't see the opposite trend played out elsewhere in the world -- with the black man ascending and the white man turning to crime, because the system has screwed him over.

Certainly somewhere we would see the white man doomed by a dreaded "system". And likewise, blacks have all of the same opportunites in MANY places around the world to do well for themselves.

But, we don't see it.

Hence, the conclusion is that it is something other than the system that has caused the crime rates to be so grossly askew.




If plastic was as strong as metal it wouldn't break as easily.

Prominant blacks such as Bill Cosby and Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson don't pull punches, twist things, or goofily shift blame for what is so very clear before our eyes.

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson: if whites were to just leave the United States and let blacks run the country, they would turn America into a ghetto within 10 years.


Kirby, you never addressed me...but since you did in this post, I will answer you query. I said that lack of educational opportunity/education for impoverished peoples keep people in poverty. When people are impoverished they are more likely to commit crimes. In this country, African-Americans have been impoverished since the beginning(see slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, etc). It is a cycle that will not be broken until we address the broken educational system.

Rev. J.L. Peterson, is a self loathing African-American, and a bigot.

Bill Cosby talked of education beginning at home, it is hopelessly naive to think an ignorant parent could teach a child something they don't know... Mr. Cosby does advocate education for everyone as well...

[kirby]

Kirby, you never addressed me...but since you did in this post, I will answer you query.

I addressed you directly in post #38.

[BigBuddhaPup]

Ahh yes, the "system" in America has kept the black man down, and forced him, in overwhelming percentages, to go into a life of crime.

Tell ya what, link me up to some data showing the opposite case to be true. Where is it on planet earth that the black man has ascended, and the white man left trapped in a "system" which ultimately leads him to, in overwhelming percentages, a life of crime?

Pass me a Snickers.


Yep, you addressed me by name, you are correct... you didn't address the statement... the point is that education drives economic conditions, in turn the highest percentage of crime comes from impoverished peoples...in turn, one of the highest percentage by race for crime is African Americans... very easy to connect the dots...

Tell me, what is the alternative scenario? African-Americans by nature are criminals regardless of economic/education level? Tell me why African-Americans are by percentage are more likely to commit a violent crime?

The question where on Earth are the circumstances opposite... nowhere I know of... which is dishearting... it further illustrates how European/American Colonialism/Imperialism has devastated the African continent and its indigeous peoples...

[CKFresh]

kirby,
As an intelligent person, I'm sure you know that race is a socail constructed thing. It is created by people in order to draw divisions. There is no differences between white and black, at least genetically. The only difference comes when society seperates theraces and gives more to one and less to another.

About you stats: I find them completely misleading. How do they classify someone who is half-black, half-white? What about half-latino?

This is my point: Race is not a real thing. Is someone who is half-black considered black?

If you think there is an INHERENT difference between white and black you really need to start reading, and go see the world.

Have you ever met or been friends with anybody other than whites kirby? (Specifically a Black man)?

[BigBuddhaPup]

That would make them 1 1/2 people... would MPD count?

Science Schience... they look different, so they must be different...

Half African-American is usually considered African-American... or maybe hispanic... or maybe a well tanned Causasian... hmmmmmmmm...

I like our differences... but it is unfortunate we divide ourselves because of them...

I think I will sing Ebony and Ivory and eat a black and white cookie today...

[kirby]

Yep, you addressed me by name, you are correct... you didn't address the statement...

Of course I did. I said it is nonsense, and asked you to tell me where on earth we see the black man ascend while the white man gets put into a hopeless system which leads him (in overwhelming percentages) to a life of crime.

You acknowledge that we see no such place.

You then choose to blame "factors", but I choose to blame individuals. I think this is a fundamental difference in the way we look at things. I favor personal accountablility.

If a person goes into crime it is a choice, is it not? If it is not a choice then isn't it inhumane to put the person in prison????

Hey, it's high time that the black community grows up and stops blaming "whitey" for his failings. If you want to look in terms of groups, do you see Asians blaming whitey? Mexicans blaming whitey? Arabs blaming whitey?

No, you don't see that. What you see instead is those groups of "people" realizing that it's up to THEM to do the right things.

The black community, for FAR too long, has been clinging to the pooooor ol' slave-decendant me....oh booo hoooo hoooo thing like a security blanket. That, and the welfare fleece the rich give to the lazy bum crackead state that the U.S. has foolishly fostered.

Cosby, Peterson, and others, agree with me.


Fresh, you don't know what race I am.

[BigBuddhaPup]

Of course I did. I said it is nonsense, and asked you to tell me where on earth we see the black man ascend while the white man gets put into a hopeless system which leads him (in overwhelming percentages) to a life of crime.

You acknowledge that we see no such place.

You then choose to blame "factors", but I choose to blame individuals. I think this is a fundamental difference in the way we look at things. I favor personal accountablility.

If a person goes into crime it is a choice, is it not? If it is not a choice then isn't it inhumane to put the person in prison????

Hey, it's high time that the black community grows up and stops blaming "whitey" for his failings. If you want to look in terms of groups, do you see Asians blaming whitey? Mexicans blaming whitey? Arabs blaming whitey?

No, you don't see that. What you see instead is those groups of "people" realizing that it's up to THEM to do the right things.

The black community, for FAR too long, has been clinging to the pooooor ol' slave-decendant me....oh booo hoooo hoooo thing like a security blanket. That, and the welfare fleece the rich give to the lazy bum crackead state that the U.S. has foolishly fostered.

Cosby, Peterson, and others, agree with me.


Fresh, you don't know what race I am.



Cause and effect just don't occur in the absolute black and white worldview... do you ever ask why the statistics stack up the way they do? So what is the reason? Never did answer the question... Why are African-Americans by percentage more likely to commit a violent crime? Answer. Don't decry that methodologies are bad if you have no counter.

Personal responsibility is your answer. So how does one know of personal responsibility/accountability in society? They have to be educated. Which goes back to my point once again.

It isn't blaming one race or another, it is putting in terms of why conditions are they way they are... hence, there has to be a reason why African-Americans commit more violent crime by percentage...

Personal responsibility theory is cop out, it doesn't address the problem...it turns a blind eye to the problem, and says work it out on your own... while a pro-education theory is proactive and strives to do something about the problem...

Blame should go where it belongs... our gov't... the inequality of our wealth in this society is staggering..and will not be addressed until our politicans aren't funded by corporations...

So I await you answer...why are greater percentage African-Americans more likely to commit a violent crime than causasians?

[CKFresh]

Kirby, when did I assume you were any race. You could be black and be racist against blacks. All I know is that you are a bigot.

Please address the questions I have asked in my previous posts, including the one about your stats, if you want to explain you are not a bigot.

[grifter]

If a person goes into crime it is a choice, is it not? If it is not a choice then isn't it inhumane to put the person in prison????

Hey, it's high time that the black community grows up and stops blaming "whitey" for his failings. If you want to look in terms of groups, do you see Asians blaming whitey? Mexicans blaming whitey? Arabs blaming whitey?

No, you don't see that. What you see instead is those groups of "people" realizing that it's up to THEM to do the right things.

The black community, for FAR too long, has been clinging to the pooooor ol' slave-decendant me....oh booo hoooo hoooo thing like a security blanket. That, and the welfare fleece the rich give to the lazy bum crackead state that the U.S. has foolishly fostered.

Of course if a person goes into crime it is a choice, all things are by choice no matter the situation. Now is this choice out of necesatie or out of malice. Violent crimes by a whole are usually out of malice though some could happen to be out of self defence but classified malice. And no it is not inhumane for the crimes of necesatie to go punished their are laws, and no matter the reason for said crime, will go punished.......unless you have connections or alot of money, then you can get out of trouble.
As far as Asians, most of those that I have seen are very well off and don't need to go into a life of crime. They get proper education, as well as the Arabs that are here. They even get free grants and good loans to come here and start a business up........without having to go to college here.
Latinos, those that are here legally usually do the right thing because they know how much better off they have it here, but the younger generation of latinos have also turned to a life of crime as well. Gangs, robberies, and other sorts of crime that are either violent or not.

And I havent heard a black person in the past 10 years refer to the oh woes me I am a slave descendent.


2. Toby came in and said he was ashamed of the white race.
Now he didn't say he was ashamed of the white race, but rather that he is ashamed that their are groups of these people that try to throw out the same type of message as you but in a violent way. And he also pretty much said he is glad no one judges him for the heinous crimes that people of the same race did. A

[kirby]

All I know is that you are a bigot.

If that's the conclusion you draw, oh well. Before you called me an idiot and stupid. I've got some names for you too, and if you want to PM me I'll tell you about them. Look, I absolutely disagree with your points of view, but I fully respect your right to have those views. But I've expressed views you are not in line with and you continue to call me names and erroneously label me.

Personal responsibility is your answer. So how does one know of personal responsibility/accountability in society? They have to be educated. Which goes back to my point once again.

Seriously? They have to be taught that violent crime is bad? Is this where our schools are failing? We are not emphasizing (to the blacks in particular) that violent crime is bad?

We pump PLENTY of money into education, wastefully so. More money for education ain't it. Give me BACK my tax money, don't keep tossing it into a garbage can. Total joke, man.

So I await you answer...why are greater percentage African-Americans more likely to commit a violent crime than causasians?

1. Personal choice
2. The welfare state
3. Terrible black leadership

[Ravana]

In deference to requests from this board's Admins, I won't name the biggest hypocrites I can bring most readily to mind....:D

[grifter]

Well Kirby, here is another link to support the idea that I and other fellow posters I know well here have.
http://www.pubdef.ocgov.com/poverty.htm
Along with just a few footnotes for those that don't want to read the whole thing.
Great debate has taken place in the past few years about the decrease in crime statistics. Some say that crime is down because of "three strike" laws and greatly enhanced prison terms. Others say that crime is down because of a simple change in demographics. Whatever the argument, hard evidence suggests our society is solving its "crime problem" by locking up poor people in alarming numbers.

What produces these horrible effects of poverty? Is it lack of family bonds? Low IQs, lack of appropriate parenting? According to the Children Defense Fund, which has collected and studied this data for over a decade: "Recent academic studies demonstrate that the effects of poverty cannot be explained away as mere side effects of single parenthood, race, parents low IQ’s or lack of education." To the contrary, poverty itself spawns this waste and desolation.
If poor people are more likely to commit crime, and if minorities are more likely to be poor, are they also more likely to commit crime? Deductive reasoning would say so. Data produced by prosecutors tends to confirm this notion. This is another of the cruel and devastating effects of poverty.

There is good reason to fear that minority men are severely at risk in the criminal justice system. 71% of all "3 strike" offenders in California prisons are African Americans or Latino Americans. What is worse, these men are all serving 25 to life sentences. Unbelievably, many of these men are serving these life sentences for petty theft and minor drug offenses. Offenses such as these are common among the poor. So common in fact that minority people suffer imprisonment wildly disproportional to their numbers in the general population.
For example, while previous studies have shown that African Americans and white Americans use drugs at about the same rate, African Americans are charged at nearly five times the rate of whites, and in "3 strikes" cases at 17 times the rates of whites in Los Angeles.
Alex Schiraldi, Director of the Center for Juvenile and Criminal Justice made this astute and somewhat caustic observation about the disproportionate prosecution of African Americans and other minorities for drug use:
"If you sent the police into white neighborhoods with the same concentration, you would draw a much different conclusion".."I am not accusing judges or District Attorneys of being Ku Klux Klan members…I am talking about a subtler form of institutional racism. And the difference to me is that if four in 10 young white men were under the control of the criminal justice system, we could not be passing "three strikes" laws or building more prisons, we would be funding education, jobs and drug treatment."
Minorities are treated differently in the courts. They are viewed with suspicion, they are held in custody longer, they are presumed guilty, their defense is poorly funded compared to the prosecution, and they are often treated abusively by the people who are charged with enforcing our laws.


Well it would seem that some higher ups did some research of their own, and what I gather out of it is they say the same thing as us and it gives numbers to back up our reason on why your numbers are the way they are.

[Ravana]

Poverty is produced by a lack of money.

Sorry, that was too flip. Though in large part it's true: poverty tends to be self-perpetuating—if your parents were poor, if you came from a low-income environment, odds are that's where you'll end up, too.

The poor commit more crimes because they are in greater need of doing so... if they cannot come by needed resources (or those they perceive as needed) by any other means. They also often have more time on their hands—in which to commit such acts; they have the opportunity, in this country at least, to perceive more clearly the differences between themselves and wealthier persons, which creates resentment and envy; and they rarely see hope for their future to change this status. This last perception on their parts is often wrong... change that and you'll change a lot. As long as it exists, though, it becomes a self-fulfillling prophecy.

The reason that there are more minority offenders in jail is because they represent a greater part of the impoverished population (i.e. those most likely to commit crimes) in the first place—not necessarily because the system is flawed. (I will not argue that it isn't—it is—just not as much as raw numbers might suggest.) The converse also holds: greater numbers of white offenders come from higher income brackets; therefore they—or their parents, more often, since most such are young, particularly if we're talking drug offenders—have better access to legal assistance, and better legal assistance, than poorer offenders do. Too, it is the minorities that are caught more often, both due to greater police attention in poorer areas, and due to greater abilities—and often motivation—on the parts of higher income offenders to conceal their activities. This, too, skews the numbers in a deceptive direction. Also, the courts themselves will see higher-income offenders as being among those who do possess greater hope and greater opportunity to change their station... and are thereby more likely to be lenient to such. It is here that the flaws in the system occur: not that the courts are harsher against minorities, but that they are less harsh against those of higher social class. The result is the same, the difference is subtle... but it is a difference, and an important one if these issues are ever to be addressed. A judge would be perfectly reasonable in holding himself unprejudiced against minorities—and being so—and yet still disposed to granting lenience—"mercy"—where it seemed most "warranted": to those with the greatest potential to become "good citizens" in the future. You will not be able to convince that judge that he/she is still "prejudiced"—a "reverse prejudice" in this case—unless you can state it in those terms.

I do not agree that minorities are "treated differently"—beyond the differences noted above—nor are they "presumed guilty," any more than anyone else is. (Unless it is by the juries... which is a separate, if important, issue, and one that deserves exploration.) That their defenses are "poorly funded" is correct, as stated... shall we require all defendants to use public defenders, then? (That'd change a few outcomes...!) If not, I see no good solution to that objection—unless it would be to make the job of public defender more attractive, and that would be difficult to say the least. That they are treated differently by law enforcement officers is a separate issue from the courts... one I brought up on another thread, coincidentally enough. Again, I don't know how great this difference is: it could be just that we hear about such instances more... or, again, given percentages within the criminal/criminal-suspect populations, that this happens more often to minorities than to others, simply because there are more of them.

Most social situations and issues are self-perpetuating. Even though there is greater class mobility (upwards and downwards) in this nation than any other, that does not mean that such mobility comes easily (not the former, at any rate). Breaking the cycle of poverty has got nothing to do with throwing money at people, though: they must also be taught what to do with it, and convinced that they will live better still if they do things for themselves than if they are handed livelihoods... and the difference must be great enough for them to want to. Motivation, education and clearly perceivable and attainable hopes are what is needed. Nothing else will work in the end.

Most importantly, this must be seen as a class issue, not one of race... or anything else. Doing so will misdirect the focus, as well as any attempts at remedies... and will cause such remedies to fail. Lower-class white people are treated no better than anyone else of the same income bracket in most instances. Nor are upper-class non-white people treated any worse than anyone else in the same income bracket... again, in most instances.

As for "solving" criminal problems by "locking people up"... that's what the system is for, right?

...Or is it?

[Montrovant]

Seriously? They have to be taught that violent crime is bad? Is this where our schools are failing? We are not emphasizing (to the blacks in particular) that violent crime is bad?

We pump PLENTY of money into education, wastefully so. More money for education ain't it. Give me BACK my tax money, don't keep tossing it into a garbage can. Total joke, man.

Quote:
So I await you answer...why are greater percentage African-Americans more likely to commit a violent crime than causasians?

1. Personal choice
2. The welfare state
3. Terrible black leadership

I don't understand, kirby. Are education and socioeconomic status reasons for higher percentages of black crime, or not? You seem to imply they are not, then by saying 'the welfare state' and 'terrible black leadership' are 2 of the 3 causes for violent crimes, say that they are.

[kirby]

I agree with some of Rav's post.

grifter, of COURSE there is a strong correlation between crime and poverty, and I would never argue to the contrary. It is beyond question.

So since we agree on that then let's change our discussion away from wondering why blacks commit many more crimes and ask, "why do blacks gravitate toward poverty in such high percentages?"

And I give the same 3 answers.

1. Personal choice
Every person in the United States is, under law, afforded the same rights and opportunities for success, and in some ways, minorities are afforded MORE opportunity. College grants, etc, etc .....
Are blacks not afforded the same opportunites as Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, etc? Yes, they are. But they have, as a race, not taken to the opportunites before them. They have continued to wallow in a dump, much more willing to blame whitey, and blame some bogus perceived "injustice" rather than get in the game.

2. The welfare state
Worst thing our "leaders" have done is to pass out free money to lazy slugs. The "poor" in our country are not poor at all, compared to the standard of other countries. Most "poor" in other countries eat bugs, live on dirt floors covered by a cardboard roof, etc, while the U.S. "poor" sit on their couch in front of a tv, watch Springer.....and walk to their REFRIGERATOR every so often.
Rather than "get in the game" the black chose to get comfortable with his level of "poverty", due to the freebies the gov. chose to hand out. Absolutely disgusting. End the welfare state. It does not work, and it's also just staight up NOT FAIR to have diligent working people's money stolen from them to be given to lazy pigs who won't get their act together.

3. Terrible black leadership
Cosby and Peterson (and some others) excluded.

[grifter]

But if you are poor and live in a poor "hood" because you can't afford to live anywhere else then you have to go to the schools in that hood which do not produce the level of education that a mid to rich hood school would produce. This in effect leads to improper education, if you don't have the proper level of education then you can not get to a good college if to college at all. No college equals less of a chance to get out of poverty hence the stats for crime.
Truth be told though, the white man did dig them in a hole and I got to say, we didn't exactly help them out of it, rather we let them fend for theirselves. We seem to have a history of doing so. Can you tell me who has the second highest prison rate in america next to the blackman.............Native Americans. We pretty much did the same to them as well, minus the slavery.


Sad part is, we both could be right on the money or both could be way off on our theories, but it appears we are at a stalemate since we all have our firm believes and I don't see any of us changing minds any time soon.

[Ravana]

"why do blacks gravitate toward poverty in such high percentages?"

I think I already expressed this in the process of my earlier answer; I'll extricate it from the rest, though, and say it directly.

They don't "gravitate" toward it: they're born into it... most of them. And once there, you remain in that class unitl you get yourself out of it—which most never do, for whatever reason. (And the reasons you give are among the better ones... #2 and #3, at least.)

"Personal choice" plays a part only insofar as they do not make the choice to do what is necessary to remove themselves from that situation. Which, again, I agree is part of the problem... more importantly, it is the solution to the problem: they must choose to get themselves out of it, which, as I said earlier, requires education, motivation and above all hope—a reasonable expectation—that their efforts will succeed, and not leave them right where they started.

So the question isn't one of "gravitation" toward any particular class or status—I don't think this or any other minority is "drawn toward" poverty: it's one of overcoming the gravity that already holds you there—though I would say a better metaphor is inertia: making the choice to get out of that situation, then following through on it, no matter what.

[Ravana]

There is also another question, something that hasn't been brought up yet: does capitalism require a certain amount of "lower-class" people? As long as there are wage differences, there will always be more and less wealthy... but could the system be changed sufficiently that all persons currently in the "lower" class—especially those in poverty—could be elevated to "middle"-class status? Or does the balance and flow of money require that there always be persons at the bottom... essentially, consumers only, not producers, just so that the producers have a large enough market to sell their products to?

This is getting into sophisticated economics, I know, and I don't know what the answer is. But it's worth thinking about.

[BigBuddhaPup]

Seriously? They have to be taught that violent crime is bad? Is this where our schools are failing? We are not emphasizing (to the blacks in particular) that violent crime is bad?

We pump PLENTY of money into education, wastefully so. More money for education ain't it. Give me BACK my tax money, don't keep tossing it into a garbage can. Total joke, man.



1. Personal choice
2. The welfare state
3. Terrible black leadership

To be educated, period. There is a correlation between education and crime rates...

It helps to have a choice, to make a choice....Choices are extremely limited when an individual has no chance at going up educational/economic levels...

To think people want to be on welfare is a ridiculous notion...most would come off of welfare if possible...

How can it be a personal choice and at the same time be bad leadership? Why would anyone need leadership if it was up to them?


So here is what would happen if your ideas were done... Personal responsibility, nothing would change, because it adds no solution... Ending Welfare State, the poor would suffer, the homeless rate would go up, hunger would go up, crime would go up, people would die from the lack of medical care... we need to help the most unfortunate in our country, not turn a blind eye... poor "black" leadership, that is a bigoted notion, we have bad "white" leadership(see GW), but the crime rate remains lower percentage-wise for causasians...

I still await any viable solutions for the problem...

[BigBuddhaPup]

There is also another question, something that hasn't been brought up yet: does capitalism require a certain amount of "lower-class" people? As long as there are wage differences, there will always be more and less wealthy... but could the system be changed sufficiently that all persons currently in the "lower" class—especially those in poverty—could be elevated to "middle"-class status? Or does the balance and flow of money require that there always be persons at the bottom... essentially, consumers only, not producers, just so that the producers have a large enough market to sell their products to?

This is getting into sophisticated economics, I know, and I don't know what the answer is. But it's worth thinking about.

"Requires".. nah... that is supply side economic theory of capitalism... our economy can and has flourished with a lesser gulf between wealth... poverty isn't necessary for others to be wealthy or middle class... Our current fiscal policy towards anyone that isn't affluent is horrible, 25% of tax cuts went to the richest .1 %, CEO wages went from 290 times an average worker to over 500 times... the average workers wages(inflation adjusted) is below 1970 levels now... Capital gain(death tax) is 15 % compared to the earlier 37ish percent... while our deficit is soaring... our gov't has completely sold out the "have nots" to the "haves"... our wealth gap is similiar to Latin American countries now... I wonder why most aren't happy with the economy...hmmm...

Sorry, I disgress... while I concede we will have some poverty in this country, but the levels we have are unneccessary, we can do much better as a country....

[RavenPoe]

Anyone who is feeling jilted by those collecting welfare the answer is simple. Liquefy all your assets and bury the money somewhere. Then go on welfare yourself. If they're getting one over on you, don't stand for it. Beat them at their own game. Collect right beside them.

Just a side note; you won't last a week in their neighborhoods. You're way too soft.

[York Hunt]

The poor commit more crimes because they are in greater need of doing so... if they cannot come by needed resources (or those they perceive as needed) by any other means.


They commit more crimes because they are more morally bankrupt than most people. Same goes for white collar criminals. You can always blame it on relative deprivation (jealousy of what others have even if you have more thhan 98% of the rest of the planet) but the that just comes right back to a character issue. People with strong morals and strong character WILL NOT commit crimes because they view it as wrong.

Nobody is starving in America and anybody who says people are is a buffoon. When you go into welfare homes and see satellite TV and cell phones, the argument looks REAL hollow.

As far as the black thing goes, well, black leaders and even the pansy lib apologists on this board like to make groups arguments to bolster victimhood arguments for blacks as a class but when you criticize blacks as a class you're called a "white supremacist."

can't have it both ways. Of course, people will try, there's a lot of money in it.

[York Hunt]

Anyone who is feeling jilted by those collecting welfare the answer is simple. Liquefy all your assets and bury the money somewhere. Then go on welfare yourself. If they're getting one over on you, don't stand for it. Beat them at their own game. Collect right beside them.

Just a side note; you won't last a week in their neighborhoods. You're way too soft.

You don't need to liquefy anything, all you have to do is lie. It's not like the system will know anytime soon that you're stealing.

As far as lasting a week in "their neighborhoods" well, don't you just have to learn how to fight dirty and unfair? You know, spraying a group of unsuspecting people with bullets, or bringing a gun to a fistfight like a pansy?

[York Hunt]

"Requires".. nah... that is supply side economic theory of capitalism... our economy can and has flourished with a lesser gulf between wealth... poverty isn't necessary for others to be wealthy or middle class... Our current fiscal policy towards anyone that isn't affluent is horrible, 25% of tax cuts went to the richest .1 %, CEO wages went from 290 times an average worker to over 500 times... the average workers wages(inflation adjusted) is below 1970 levels now... Capital gain(death tax) is 15 % compared to the earlier 37ish percent... while our deficit is soaring... our gov't has completely sold out the "have nots" to the "haves"... our wealth gap is similiar to Latin American countries now... I wonder why most aren't happy with the economy...hmmm...

Sorry, I disgress... while I concede we will have some poverty in this country, but the levels we have are unneccessary, we can do much better as a country....

You sound like you think it's the government's job to even everything out.

Guess what? Don't like the tax structure? Vote for somebody who supports a tax structure you like.

The rich in this country pay the vast majority of taxes. The poor pay virtually nothiong and welfare is abused.

do your homework.

[York Hunt]

ction, Jim Crow, etc). It is a cycle that will not be broken until we address the broken educational system.

An educational system cannot work without strong families or role models at home. That's what people don't seem to understand. You could fund every ghetto school with 900 trillion dollars and it won't improve anything.

It's the most absurd way of looking at the problem of inner city schools. "FIX THE SCHOOLS!" everybody cries. Wrong. FIX THE FAMILY. Cosby and Peterson are 100% correct.

I work in a public school with all the best everything. the black kids are in general, arrogant, difficult to discipline, and academic failures.

Now, is it the school or the family?

Memo: It's the family. It's the community. It's the culture that tells these kids tohate society and whitey.

Rev. J.L. Peterson, is a self loathing African-American, and a bigot.

Please. Even if he is what you say, who gives a *****? He makes sense. He's saying what needs to be said. I don't care if he's Pol Pot, the dude makes sense.

Bill Cosby talked of education beginning at home, it is hopelessly naive to think an ignorant parent could teach a child something they don't know... Mr. Cosby does advocate education for everyone as well...

It does begin at home. And if it's not, tough crap. The world needs ditch diggers too.

Better luck in the next life, assholes.

[Montrovant]

Or maybe it's a combination of the 2 viewpoints. How does the US as a whole stack up against other nations as far as education? Is it a racial issue, or a societal one? If the US is behind other countries in education (literacy rates, graduation rates, grades, etc.) then perhaps changes do need to be made in our education system. And improving schools doesn't mean 'throwing money at them'. Obviously money by itself isn't a solution, but money spent in the right ways may be. The environment in which you are taught can have an effect on how well you learn; clearly better teachers should equate to better education.

Education DOES begin at home. Uneducated parents can still emphasize the importance of education in their children. The cliche is for parents to want their children to surpass them; getting a better education can certainly facilitate that. A child brought up in a society or community or family that puts a small emphasis on education is at a disadvantage. And learning is certainly not something you can only do in school, it can be just as important to learn things on your own.

These are far from clear-cut issues. There is no 1 thing to be done to make everything 'right'. Things need to improve in many areas, from individual motivations to community beliefs to societal functions. The idea that there is no blame is just as ridiculous as the idea that all the blame rests in one place.

One addendum : for those who may feel that the poor need to 'get off their asses', so to speak, and that it is a poor person's fault for not raising their station in life, I ask this question. Did you grow up poor? Do you know what it's like to try and improve your life from that position? I'm certainly not saying it can't be done, just that it might be a bit harder than you think.

[Red Rover]

what is the color of the man who invented that lovely invention we all know and use called the air conditioner.....................black.

FALSE.

Who told you that lie?

[Peter North]

Willis Haviland Carrier invented the A.C.

He was a white man.

[York Hunt]

If the US is behind other countries in education

We're not.

in fact, our university system is the envy of the world. When people from Europe or anywhere else want a good college education, they come here, period.

(literacy rates, graduation rates, grades, etc.) then perhaps changes do need to be made in our education system.

No changes need to be made.

And improving schools doesn't mean 'throwing money at them'. Obviously money by itself isn't a solution, but money spent in the right ways may be. The environment in which you are taught can have an effect on how well you learn; clearly better teachers should equate to better education.

Clearly, non scumbag parents = students learning.

[Montrovant]

We're not.

in fact, our university system is the envy of the world. When people from Europe or anywhere else want a good college education, they come here, period.



No changes need to be made.



Clearly, non scumbag parents = students learning.

First of all, I said that education begins at home; that doesn't mean improved schools are a bad thing. Also, parents are not the only issue, although they are a major one. Friends/media/community also influence what children think and believe, and how much effort they put into learning. Obviously parents need to do more, but other changes can help as well. I would guess there are good parents whose children are poor students, even if it's a small percentage.

Second, our university system is not the issue. It's our public schools that get the scrutiny and criticism. It seems likely to me that kids brought up in poor quality public schools are less likely to go on to the college level. Beyond which, plenty of people never go to college, and that's fine; it is cumpulsory schooling that may need help.

[MajorPirate]

Liberals are without a doubt the biggest hypocrits that exist

[York Hunt]

Read "The Prison Notebooks" by Antonio Gramsci.

It will all make sense then.

[Marc]

This thread is mindlessly wondering with no direction or point anymore. Let's move on, people. And new members, this is a sports board, you might want to actually contribute to sports threads, too...