Teacher/student affairs

[Montrovant]

There's been so many reports of teachers (female teachers for the most part) having sex with their students recently. For the most part, I agree that it's not a good thing, that if convicted on any charges those teachers should no longer be allowed to teach, that if it's with especially young students they are taking advantage, etc.

However, I was reading this the other day and it struck me as a bit ridiculous...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241005,00.html

This case seems a bit off from the norm. It's a substitute rather than a regular teacher. The student in question was 17, and apparently told the teacher he was 18 (perfectly normal for a senior in HS to be 18). There's nothing to indicate it was anything other than consensual. And here's this Hannity guy, saying it would be better if she were registered as a sex offender. Is it just me, or is that a bit overboard? First of all, if he were 18, would everything have been just fine? I don't think that a year's age difference (or less, not sure exactly what his age was, he could have been days from turning 18 when this occured for all I know) should change the relationship from sexual predation to perfectly reasonable. Second, is this an offense that really deserves someone being registered as a sex offender? Again, it appears it was consensual, and 17-year-olds often have sex, so it's not as though the boy was exposed to something he couldn't be normally.

Don't get me wrong. If it's a crime, it's a crime. And I don't believe HS teachers should be having sex with their students. I just feel that a lot of media talking heads want to make more of some of these cases than they should.

[da12ken]

Yea, seems like making a big deal out of not much.

[Marino13]

I'd hit that like a screen door in a hurricane

[boston_aloha]

Who are these kids? They must be LEGENDS in that school!!! Bonen a teacher!! And who are these desparate women that can't get laid? It makes no sense to me!

[tobynosker]

And who are these schools that hire good looking teachers?

I never had one of those when I was in school.

[IntheNet]

Yea, seems like making a big deal out of not much.

Well hold on a bit... Inasmuch as the teach being a real knockout being the satisfaction of every pimple-faced high school dream, the legal aspects of these affairs need to be examined!

Teachers hold a supervisory responsibility over students; an affair conflicts that responsibility. If a male made such advances, prosecution for rape would be urged by the public at large (and it has). However, you think because the teach is a babe she should get a pass on such transgression?

Sorry. No.

Slap some of these immoral instructors in the pen for a 35 year rape sentence... put them in the general population at the detention facility to satisfy their primal urges... Make a few such statements.

Teachers hold a responsibility... if they can't honor it charge them for rape!

[tobynosker]

Originally Posted by InTheNet
Teachers hold a responsibility... if they can't honor it charge them for rape!

Let's save the rape charges for someone who actually commits a rape.

[IntheNet]

Let's save the rape charges for someone who actually commits a rape.

Say a 27 year old female teacher and a 17 year old male high school senior?

Numerous male teachers have been charged in like situations; you think female teachers are different? Hypocrisy much?

[CKFresh]

Inthenet,
It's a double standard with good reason. A boy CAN NOT be forced to have sex with a woman. Think about it - "erection." The boy, even if coerced, still must be wanting the act to happen for it to happen. This is not the case with a female girl. She could easily be taken advantage of, even raped.

For MOST boys this is a dream come true. Sure it seems like a double standard, but it is necessary.

[IntheNet]

It's a double standard with good reason...

Good luck selling that to a jury! Matter of fact... let us know if you try so we can watch the hypocrisy ooze out of your argument...

I await the influx of new detainees into our criminal justice system...based on recent School Board actions my view on this issue is not in the minority...

What needs be done, however, is to institute ombudsmen and ombudswomen into high schools so students feel free reporting this sexual abuse and teachers can be quickly prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law....

[CKFresh]

IntheNet,

If you don't see the difference between a 30 year old man and 15 year old girl having sex, and a 30 year old woman and 15 year old boy having sex, then I really worry about you.

1) The minor in the latter situation can not become pregnant, only the adult (who can be held responsible) can become pregnant. In the former situation, the child could become pregnant. BIG DIFFERENCE.

2) The minor in the latter situation can not be FORCED to have sex. The minor in the former situation CAN be FORCED into sex and RAPED.

AGAIN, BIG DIFFERENCE.

I don't know why I bother, you can not look at anything for what they really are. Everything is black and white to you. You can't see inbetween the lines. It's either bad or good, no inbetween.

[Montrovant]

Well hold on a bit... Inasmuch as the teach being a real knockout being the satisfaction of every pimple-faced high school dream, the legal aspects of these affairs need to be examined!

Teachers hold a supervisory responsibility over students; an affair conflicts that responsibility. If a male made such advances, prosecution for rape would be urged by the public at large (and it has). However, you think because the teach is a babe she should get a pass on such transgression?

Sorry. No.

Slap some of these immoral instructors in the pen for a 35 year rape sentence... put them in the general population at the detention facility to satisfy their primal urges... Make a few such statements.

Teachers hold a responsibility... if they can't honor it charge them for rape!

Couple of things. First, if a 27 year old male and 17 year old female had consensual sex, I would feel the same way. I DON'T care about which sides the genders are on.
I don't think anyone should 'get a pass'. Don't ever allow them to teach again. Charge them with a misdomeaner crime. 35 years for rape? That's insane. We're talking about consensual sex, with a 17 year old, who apparently made out he was 18. That's not rape. Depending on his age, and the laws in place in this particular area, that could be anywhere from a year to a day away from being legal (as far as the sex, not the teacher-student relationship). In a number of states, the age of consent is as low as 16. So rape is in no way an issue here.

Now, states have various laws regarding adults in positions of authority over minors. I assume those laws are in place for this type of situation. That's fine, but a 35 year rape sentence? Come off it :)

P.S. - CK, I believe you meant 'latter' :)

[Richard the Lionheart]

IntheNet,

If you don't see the difference between a 30 year old man and 15 year old girl having sex, and a 30 year old woman and 15 year old boy having sex, then I really worry about you.

1) The minor in the ladder situation can not become pregnant, only the adult (who can be held responsible) can become pregnant. In the former situation, the child could become pregnant. BIG DIFFERENCE.

2) The minor in the ladder situation can not be FORCED to have sex. The minor in the former situation CAN be FORCED into sex and RAPED.

AGAIN, BIG DIFFERENCE.

I don't know why I bother, you can not look at anything for what they really are. Everything is black and white to you. You can't see inbetween the lines. It's either bad or good, no inbetween.

There's a slight difference, but they're both wrong. A fifteen year old is not on the same maturity level as a 30 year old. That is taking advantage, and very wrong. It doesn't matter if the kid is "erect". That's ridiculous. Even if he enjoys it, its still not legal. If a 45 year old man took a fourteen year old kid in the alley way, are you really suggesting we have a "boner test" in order to find someone guilty? They're just kids, the law should protect them from sexual predators no matter anyone's gender.

[CKFresh]

Thanks Montro.

Ricky,
Nontheless, there is a difference and you see it. I've said it before, it is a dream for most high school boys to have this occur.

It is what we all know as a "victimless crime." And if you tell me that this scars the boy for life, I will laugh.

[tobynosker]

Originally Posted by InTheNet
Say a 27 year old female teacher and a 17 year old male high school senior?

Consensual sex by two people of consenting age according to the state of Utah can hardly be classified as rape.


Originally Posted by InTheNet
Numerous male teachers have been charged in like situations

How many male teachers in Utah have been charged with rape because they slept with a 17-year old female student who consented to the act and gave the impression to the teacher that she was 18-years old at the time?


Originally Posted by InTheNet
you think female teachers are different? Hypocrisy much?

I do not think female teachers are different, nor should they be treated differently than their male counterparts. Jump to conclusions much?

[tobynosker]

Sorry for the double-post, but I must say...

Originally Posted by CKFresh
Ricky,
Nontheless, there is a difference and you see it. I've said it before, it is a dream for most high school boys to have this occur.

It is what we all know as a "victimless crime." And if you tell me that this scars the boy for life, I will laugh.

Because you have a psychology degree and enough personal knowledge of the boy and his situation in life to know that a sexual encounter like this will have no mental impact on him whatsoever?

Even if the incident is this boy's dream come true, state law in Utah says that a 29-year old woman sleeping with a 17-year old boy is unlawful sexual conduct.

And I for one think it is a great law to have because you don't know what kinds of ramifications an encounter like this (especially if it was the boy's first-time) could have on the individuals involved later in life.

[IntheNet]

AGAIN, BIG DIFFERENCE.

No.

Matter of fact... I just checked six different states and their legal definition of rape...(I would have checked more on Google but six seems a good overview)... none define rape differently for a man vs. a woman, either by those committing the act or being a victim of the act. Sorry. Legally you are wrong.

Additionally, I suggest you bone up on education responsibilities for teachers... most state codes for teachers prohibit intimacy with students; at very least a dismissable offense.

I agree. I believe most of the nation does as well.

[CKFresh]

I wasn't making a legal argument.

Did I say it is legal, or even SHOULD BE legal? No. I simply stated there is a difference. And I think MOST people see that difference. Of course legally it is the same thing, and perhaps even morally. But most people don't see a 17 boy with a 30 year old woman as appauling as the opposite.

So quit making arguments for points I never made. Please, stick to what I really said and stop putting words in peoples mouths.

As far as teachers responsibilities, did I say it was responsible for them to do this? nope, once again you've put words in my mouth.

All I said is that there is a huge difference that most people recognize. NOT THE LAW, not the EDUCATION system. But people. Most people are not as appalled as you are by a teenage boy/man having sex with an older woman.

[IntheNet]

. Most people are not as appalled as you are by a teenage boy/man having sex with an older woman.

Not "apalled" at all... just want them fired, arrested, tried, and sentenced for rape! Simple as that. And believe me... that is what they deserve as predators.

[bearsr4real]

wow CK, i disagree. i'm sure you remember being 17, and there's no better definition of a "predator" than a 17 year-old male. plus, just from the MUG SHOT, i'd have hit that too. and if he said he was 18, and she believed it, then why not? with the quick development of kids these days, we can't honestly believe the age of "consent" is anything more than 15. now before you go all crazy on me, i'm not condoning doing a 15 year old unless you're 15, but "consent" is a really touchy term. i know at 15 i certainly knew what i was doing and wasn't ignorant or being "taken advantage of," whether the girl was 15 or 35. when you're a teenage boy, you'll get it wherever you can get it. i don't know about the chick, but i can't imagine she was very old herself, you know? if they were in their 50's, would 6 or 7 years make a difference?

[CKFresh]

I'm not sure how you disagree with me bearsr4real.

That sounds pretty much exactly like what I said.

[KevinBeane]

It's time for that twice-yearly session where I agree with inthenet (except for appropriate punishment).

CK, you are right, society doesn't look at a 27-year old male teacher with a 15-year old student the same way they do if the genders are reversed.

But they should. It's to society's debit that we don't look at them the same way, simply because we find the female teacher/male student variety to be hot or enviable (putting yourself back into your 15-year-old shoes).

In both cases, the teacher is violating a sacred trust, and in both cases, the teacher is exploiting a naive kid for personal pleasure. I don't see a way one can individually feel better about one than the other, even if it's true societally.

[CKFresh]

I agree Beane, as far as legally. It should be the same thing as far as the law is concerned. All I was saying is that it is very different. Legally, no, logically yes. Like I said, there are differences in who can become pregnant, who can be raped, ect... that make the two situations VERY different.

[nojob67]

http://debra-lafave.tjp.hu/i/debra_lafave_4.jpg



I have nothing else to say on this topic

[bearsr4real]

I'm not sure how you disagree with me bearsr4real.

That sounds pretty much exactly like what I said.

i must have missed the previous message. then...yet again we agree....

[CKFresh]

Very true bears. What else is new?

nojob
I like the photo. IntheNet, you telling me you wouldn't do her when you were 17? come on man, I know you are a freak.

[Alex]

Who are these kids? They must be LEGENDS in that school!!! Bonen a teacher!! And who are these desparate women that can't get laid? It makes no sense to me!

A kid at my H.S. (senior last year) was caught doing a guidance intern while her husband was serving in the Marines over seas.

Needless to say, he became a legend and was voted "Most Respected" by the senior class last year. They have since taken away senior year superlatives from us. :lol:

[IntheNet]

IntheNet, you telling me you wouldn't do her when you were 17? come on man, I know you are a freak.

Immaterial to discussion and that isn't hypocrisy at all... let me explain...

We need to hold teachers to a higher standard; a "sacred trust" as Kevin wisely states... we cannot have different standards for male vs females as far as rape is concerned... doesn't matter what kids want to do, or adults might do.

If left unchecked, female rape of male students will escalate... in short, both male and female teachers who sexually abuse students should be equally prosecuted. Doing anything less is immoral.

[boston_aloha]

A kid at my H.S. (senior last year) was caught doing a guidance intern while her husband was serving in the Marines over seas.

Needless to say, he became a legend and was voted "Most Respected" by the senior class last year. They have since taken away senior year superlatives from us. :lol:
thats awesome... :lol: How did they catch them? He must of been 18 right?

[Alex]

thats awesome... :lol: How did they catch them? He must of been 18 right?

The husband caught them together, or so I've been told. Actually I think it started when the guy was only 15 or so. It didn't come into public knowledge until a year or two ago. Lucky bastard. This wasn't just some kinda-hot teacher. She was hot by any standard. Pretty sure she's doin' some time by now.

[boston_aloha]

That must of been one pissed off Marine!

[CKFresh]

Immaterial to discussion and that isn't hypocrisy at all... let me explain...

We need to hold teachers to a higher standard; a "sacred trust" as Kevin wisely states... we cannot have different standards for male vs females as far as rape is concerned... doesn't matter what kids want to do, or adults might do.

If left unchecked, female rape of male students will escalate... in short, both male and female teachers who sexually abuse students should be equally prosecuted. Doing anything less is immoral.

I was just messin' with ya IntheNet. I just wanted to get a rise out of you. :) Anyway, I don't think anyone realizes that I agree about the LEGAL side of this argument. I just think there is a fundamental difference, that's all.