Obama chimes in on Duke case...

[buckeyefan78]

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in a written response to a constituent, said that an "independent inquiry is needed" into the conduct of Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong in the Duke Lacrosse case.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/LegalCenter/story?id=2980582&page=1

Political move or is he really concerned?

[Billy D]

Of course it's a political move. That's not a high-priority case unless you happen to represent the state of North Carolina

To be fair, Obama seemed to be supporting a colleague more than stirring up this case on his own

[IntheNet]

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in a written response to a constituent, said that an "independent inquiry is needed" into the conduct of Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong in the Duke Lacrosse case.


We don't need an "inquiry" at all; someone needs to fire Nifong. That's all.

[DETMURDS]

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in a written response to a constituent, said that an "independent inquiry is needed" into the conduct of Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong in the Duke Lacrosse case.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/LegalCenter/story?id=2980582&page=1

Political move or is he really concerned?

Barack HUSSEIN Obama is going to hurt his own party in doing so!:lol:

[catman]

He may not hurt his party, but he certainly risks hurting his personal chances to be elected by doing things of this nature.
As to Mr. Obama's middle name, I do not see that it is an issue. He has no control over what his parents decided to put on his birth certificate as his name.

[CKFresh]

He may not hurt his party, but he certainly risks hurting his personal chances to be elected by doing things of this nature.
As to Mr. Obama's middle name, I do not see that it is an issue. He has no control over what his parents decided to put on his birth certificate as his name.

Thank you catman for bringing your side back to reality.

DETMURDS,
Obama must be a bad person because of his middle name, is that what you are implying? Why do you feel the need to highlight his middle name if you are not a bigot towards other ethnicities?

[catman]

Remember Fresh, it was Hillary's campaign that brought his middle name to national attention.

[CKFresh]

Remember Fresh, it was Hillary's campaign that brought his middle name to national attention.

And I condemn those in charge for doing so. If Hillary had anything to do with it, I will call her a bigot as well.

[IntheNet]

Obama must be a bad person because of his middle name...


No not a bad person specifically but he has to work extra hard to condemn those that share such a name... similiar to someone running as a candidate with a name like Santa Anna, Adolph, or Lenin, or Hussein. And this candidate needs to condemn that for which his name might be associated; i.e., fanatical Muslims and jihad. A few months ago, young Obama was involved in some association with a Madaras school which fosters terrorism. While he has shown that his association with this school was when he was young, he did not outright condemn fanatical Muslim jihad or the sharia law. Young Obama needs to prove to us that his name is not a handicap; as it stands right now it is. Sorry; not me speaking there: It is America.

[catman]

Good. This is one reason Hillary will never win the Presidency. If the Democrats are smart, they will nominate someone else.

[CKFresh]

Good. This is one reason Hillary will never win the Presidency. If the Democrats are smart, they will nominate someone else.

They will. The only reason most Democrats even consider Hillary is they want to get Bill back in the white house, so we can return to "the good ol' days." I don't think Hillary will get the nomination.

[DETMURDS]

Thank you catman for bringing your side back to reality.

DETMURDS,
Obama must be a bad person because of his middle name, is that what you are implying? Why do you feel the need to highlight his middle name if you are not a bigot towards other ethnicities?

Hey buddy, what if another candidate's middle name was "HITLER", and he had white skin, short dark hair, and an square shaped mustache? Would he be treated fairly? Would CKFresh even listen to him?

[Montrovant]

Hey buddy, what if another candidate's middle name was "HITLER", and he had white skin, short dark hair, and an square shaped mustache? Would he be treated fairly? Would CKFresh even listen to him?

Are you saying Obama looks like Saddam? Or that Hitler is as common a name as Hussein?

[IntheNet]

Hey buddy, what if another candidate's middle name was "HITLER", and he had white skin, short dark hair, and an square shaped mustache? Would he be treated fairly? Would CKFresh even listen to him?

I'll bet if Hitler was for relaxed marijuanna laws in a campaign, he'd get the Fresh vote! ;)

Hussein is a common name for Middle East fanatics...

[CKFresh]

Hey buddy, what if another candidate's middle name was "HITLER", and he had white skin, short dark hair, and an square shaped mustache? Would he be treated fairly? Would CKFresh even listen to him?

I wouldn't care if a politicians name was Jesus Christ or Lucifer Satan. As long as he stood for my beliefs that is all that matters. If you seriously want to be a bigot, then continue to talk like this. But don't be surprised when moderates are turned off, and call conservatives bigots.


Hussein is a common name for Middle East fanatics...

Wrong. Hussein is a common name anywhere in the middle east or among any muslim culture.

[DETMURDS]

I'll bet if Hitler was for relaxed marijuanna laws in a campaign, he'd get the Fresh vote! ;)

Hussein is a common name for Middle East fanatics...

Point made, end of discussion,...case closed!

[Montrovant]

Point made, end of discussion,...case closed!

So is your point that you and IntheNet are both willing to base your opinion of someone on what they were named? Or maybe that you are both anti-Arabic? Or could it be that when one of you makes a narrow-minded, bigoted, and/or simplistic statement the other can often be counted on to chime in with agreement? I'd like the point clarified :)

[CKFresh]

Montro,

Bigots and racists eventaully lose the support of the majority. If they want to discriminate based on ethnicity or religion, let them, it will only hurt their own cause.

[IntheNet]

Bigots and racists eventaully lose the support of the majority...

Ehh... Umm... West Virginia Senator Byrd notwithstanding....

[CKFresh]

Ehh... Umm... West Virginia Senator Byrd notwithstanding....

I condemn Robert Byrd for his biggotri earlier in his life. I would call him a bigot to his face.

You must remember IntheNet, I do not follow my party blindly, like some people do...

[IntheNet]

You must remember IntheNet, I do not follow my party blindly, like some people do...

What are your thoughts on Obama's comments relative to maintaining hiring preferences and set-asides and for African Americans? Many within the African American communities have maintained that these government preferential programs have forced African Americans into yet another type of slavery: constant poverty. Further, based on population demographics in the last census, many communities where such set asides and hiring preferences extended to African Americans are no longer valid as African Americans in these communities are no longer the minority but majority. Therefore, if you don't follow your party blindy, let's here some genuine questioning of those among folks on your side of the aise that ignore real issues of the day... I await Mr. Obama to address some issues beyond how much money he can mug from Hollywood...

[CKFresh]

Are you referring to affirmative action?

[IntheNet]

Are you referring to affirmative action?

Precisely...

[CKFresh]

If you are, all I can say is this...

As long as I encounter bigots like you and DETMURDS, who say someone shouldn't have a job because of their ethnicity and name, I will support affirmative action. Unfortunately, there are people in this world who think certain races or religions are superior to others, and in turn higher only their race. The average white person still makes much more than the average african-american, white people still discriminate.

When you lose the bigotry, I will drop my support for affirmative action.


if you don't follow your party blindy

What do mean "if"? I have condemned Robert Byrd, Hillary Clinton, and many other democrats. I look at "right and wrong" not republican and democrat. That is you my friend...

[IntheNet]

...white people still discriminate...

The bigot you are hunting for stares at you in every mirror.

[CKFresh]

The bigot you are hunting for stares at you in every mirror.

I am bigotted towards my own race? Right... just like I hate my own country, hate my parents and my girlfriend (becaue they are Christian), and I hate politics because I talk abouot them so much... :lol:

Nice try, but the "you hate everything" argument doesn't work very well. I am not racists towards whites, I am white. I don't hate my own nationality. And I love Christians.

Try again...:lol:

[IntheNet]

I am bigotted towards my own race? Right... just like I hate my own country, hate my parents and my girlfriend (becaue they are Christian), and I hate politics because I talk abouot them so much... :lol:

Nice try, but the "you hate everything" argument doesn't work very well. I am not racists towards whites, I am white. I don't hate my own nationality. And I love Christians.


CKFresh: If you scroll back you will see a sentiment expressed that is not racist or bigotted but simply a move toward fairness in all things. Eliminating affirmative action programs is a central key toward fairness for all. There was a time when such programs may have had a need during the Civil Rights era; that time has now passed. This does not mean that all hiring preferences and set asides do not have a use; it simply means that the need for them as the law of the land has outlived its usefulness.

Competition in the job market and education environment should now be on equal footing for all races, cultures, sexes, and minority groups. The continance of affirmative action, when its need is largely rooted in an apology for passed discrimination, makes little sense. All society needs to compete on a level playing field and the time has come not to give preference to any group but have all compete equally.

[DETMURDS]

If you are, all I can say is this...

As long as I encounter bigots like you and DETMURDS, who say someone shouldn't have a job because of their ethnicity and name, I will support affirmative action. Unfortunately, there are people in this world who think certain races or religions are superior to others, and in turn higher only their race. The average white person still makes much more than the average african-american, white people still discriminate.

When you lose the bigotry, I will drop my support for affirmative action.



What do mean "if"? I have condemned Robert Byrd, Hillary Clinton, and many other democrats. I look at "right and wrong" not republican and democrat. That is you my friend...


All I am really saying is that with a middle name like Hitler, or Hussein, people will hold against voting for them. This is the very reason why Obama doesn't even mention his middle name! For the record,...I am not a bigot. I love God, so it is not possible for me to be a bigot.

[CKFresh]

Obama doesn't even mention his middle name!

That's not ebcause he is "ashamed" or anything like that. It is because he knows there are bigots out there who will bring this up, in an attempt to distract the public from the real issues of a failed war and a failed administration.

For the record,...I am not a bigot. I love God, so it is not possible for me to be a bigot.

There are plenty of people who "love God" who are very bigotted. See: Jerry Falwell, or Fred Phelps.

[IntheNet]

That's not ebcause he is "ashamed" or anything like that...

I would be!


Has he ever considered assimiliating into the American culture?

[CKFresh]

Has he ever considered assimiliating into the American culture?

This is a joke right?

[IntheNet]

This is a joke right?

I'll bet you didn't assimiliate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation) either... am I correct?

You're a leftist...

[CKFresh]

I'll bet you didn't assimiliate either... am I correct?

I was born in America, so I'm not sure what you mean, I don't think you know what you mean either.

How is Barack Obama not assimilated into American culture? Would it be his Ivy League education? How about his home in the suburbs? His beautiful family?

Oh that's right, he has a foreign name.

Bigots have been out of style since the '60s. I suggest you assimilate into American culture and drop the fundamentalist, extremist, racists, classist, and dangerous ideology. America is a lot better than that...

[Montrovant]

IntheNet, are you suggesting Obama must change his name to 'assimilate' into the US?

[CKFresh]

IntheNet, are you suggesting Obama must change his name to 'assimilate' into the US?

That is exactly what he is suggesting.

[catman]

I would hope the country has risen above such petty things as a person's name. I will remind everyone who brought the name into the public eye, however.

[CKFresh]

I would hope the country has risen above such petty things as a person's name. I will remind everyone who brought the name into the public eye, however.

I would as well, and as I said, I condemn the members of the Clinton camp that brought this up.

But since they are not ehre, and the only two people that are making it an issue are two hard-core republicans, I think we can shift the blame and bigottry over to the other side.

Keep in mind catman, IntheNet and DETMURDS vote the same way you do, and these type of accusations and bigotted remarks should be condemned by your party should you have any chance to win elections in the future.

[Montrovant]

I would as well, and as I said, I condemn the members of the Clinton camp that brought this up.

But since they are not ehre, and the only two people that are making it an issue are two hard-core republicans, I think we can shift the blame and bigottry over to the other side.

Keep in mind catman, IntheNet and DETMURDS vote the same way you do, and these type of accusations and bigotted remarks should be condemned by your party should you have any chance to win elections in the future.

*sigh*

It's not about 'the other side'. People are not defined by their political affiliation. Unless he's running for some office, catman doesn't have to worry about having any chance to win elections. And I don't think most republicans have any idea what IntheNet or Detmurds have posted here, so there's no way for them to condemn it :)

Too often people get caught up in the democrat vs. republican mentality when politics start getting argued. I think that the individual candidates become unimportant compared to the party they are with. It's one reason I'm so jaded politically.....politicians have to 'tow the line' to some extent to get the support needed for election to higher office. So instead of individual thoughts and ideas, you have the party lines.

I'll take the comments made about Obama's name as completely personal views and not apply them to either party as a whole, and I'd hope everyone else can do that as well.

[CKFresh]

*sigh*

It's not about 'the other side'. People are not defined by their political affiliation. Unless he's running for some office, catman doesn't have to worry about having any chance to win elections. And I don't think most republicans have any idea what IntheNet or Detmurds have posted here, so there's no way for them to condemn it :)

Too often people get caught up in the democrat vs. republican mentality when politics start getting argued. I think that the individual candidates become unimportant compared to the party they are with. It's one reason I'm so jaded politically.....politicians have to 'tow the line' to some extent to get the support needed for election to higher office. So instead of individual thoughts and ideas, you have the party lines.

I'll take the comments made about Obama's name as completely personal views and not apply them to either party as a whole, and I'd hope everyone else can do that as well.

The problem Montro, is that when you have a group of people who think alike, it is fair to attribute things, such as bigottry, to one party. The people that are elected, represent the wishes of those that elected them.

I call it like I see it, and republicans tend to be more racists, or bigotted, than democrats, it is simply part of the ideology. Liberalism preaches equality, and political correctness, conservatism preaches superiority of one way of live, and blatant oppression of certain groups.

[catman]

I have been asked to run for local office by both parties in the last 10 years and have declined the offers. Had I run, it is likely that I would have won my race, either party, mind you.
I might decide to run for an office in the next couple of elections, and both parties are still interested in putting me on the ballot (meaning I'd most certainly win). When and if I run, I'll let everyone know what my platform is, OK?
If liberalism preaches equality, why the pandering to minority groups through Affirmative Action?

Fresh, you are absolutely right. There is bigotry in politics, but one party does not have a monopoly on it.

[CKFresh]

If liberalism preaches equality, why the pandering to minority groups through Affirmative Action?

Because there are racists out there that don't allow equality for minorities. Affirmative action is the only way to safe-guard against bigots in the work place.

I know, I know, it is so tough being a white man in America. Those lucky black guys get all the breaks. I wish white people had affirmative action....

Think about that for a second...

[catman]

I have and continue to consider Affirmative Action to be a racist program, brought about to continue racist ideas.
I will never agree with a program that gives people of one race or gender special consideration when applying for jobs or seats in professional schools. If they are qualified, they should get the jobs or seats through their own abilities, not because they are the proper color or gender.

[CKFresh]

If minorities were afforded the same opportunity as you and I, we wouldn't need affirmative action. Unfortunately, we have people like IntheNet and DETMURDS who would not hire someone with the middle name of Hussein. Therefore, we need to place laws in the system the ensure employers do not discriminate. I wish we didn't need affirmative action, but I am realistic, and I know there are way too many bigots.

Look at the wealth disparity between whites and blacks in this country. What do you think that would look like if we allowed racists to discriminate in the work place? I can tell you, look back to the early '60s.

[CKFresh]

I have and continue to consider Affirmative Action to be a racist program, brought about to continue racist ideas.
I will never agree with a program that gives people of one race or gender special consideration when applying for jobs or seats in professional schools. If they are qualified, they should get the jobs or seats through their own abilities, not because they are the proper color or gender.

So you are in support of making the wealth gap between whites and blacks even larger? Doing away with affirmative action would ensure that it would happen. If you want to do away with affirmative action, you must say that you are in support of widening the wealth disparity between whites and blacks.

[catman]

So you are in support of making the wealth gap between whites and blacks even larger? Doing away with affirmative action would ensure that it would happen. If you want to do away with affirmative action, you must say that you are in support of widening the wealth disparity between whites and blacks.

I am? I do not recall saying that I support making the wealth cap larger in any way. I do not see that there is a reason to give peop0le merits on an exam or application because of their race or gender. If there were a similar program for white males, you would be among the first to scream that it was discriminatory, and you would be correct.
Affirmative Action is racist, pure and simple.
To think it is necessary is to continue the racist attitudes that were the prevailing sentiment until recently (hopefully).
I want a merit-based society where everyone has equal chances to succeed to their maximum, based soley on their own abilities, period. If this makes me a racist in your mind, I would suggest that you re-evaluate your priorities and attitudes.

[CKFresh]

I want a merit-based society where everyone has equal chances to succeed to their maximum, based soley on their own abilities, period

Do you think this would happen without affirmative action? What if someone is not hired because they are black, and only because they are black, should that be legal?

I am? I do not recall saying that I support making the wealth cap larger in any way.

No, but doing away with affirmative action would, in fact, increase the gap between whites and minorities. Are you ok with that?

If there were a similar program for white males, you would be among the first to scream that it was discriminatory, and you would be correct.

Well, no, not if whites were the minority, and made much less than the majority. It is wrong for an entire group of people to be punished just because of their race. Even with affirmative action, white people have better opportunity than blacks. Who is punished by affirmative action. If you say white people then I say, fine. I am wiling to benefit the african american race at the cost of the "white man." As I said, whites are still at an economic advantage and affirmative action is just one way we can work to equal the playing field.

Are you ok with the wealth gap increasing between whites and blacks? Doing away with affirmative actino will absolutely, undoubtedly make that happen.

[IntheNet]

Are you ok with the wealth gap increasing between whites and blacks?

Are you okay with hard work and achievement? One doesn't get ahead waiting for welfare check and selling coke on the street corner...

[catman]

Do you think this would happen without affirmative action? What if someone is not hired because they are black, and only because they are black, should that be legal?



No, but doing away with affirmative action would, in fact, increase the gap between whites and minorities. Are you ok with that?



Well, no, not if whites were the minority, and made much less than the majority. It is wrong for an entire group of people to be punished just because of their race. Even with affirmative action, white people have better opportunity than blacks. Who is punished by affirmative action. If you say white people then I say, fine. I am wiling to benefit the african american race at the cost of the "white man." As I said, whites are still at an economic advantage and affirmative action is just one way we can work to equal the playing field.

Are you ok with the wealth gap increasing between whites and blacks? Doing away with affirmative actino will absolutely, undoubtedly make that happen.

Fresh, there may have been a time when Affirmative Action had a purpose. That time is long past. The time to move on from the racism of our past is long over.
Programs like Affirmative Action continue the atmosphere of intolerance that we should have grown beyond by now.
I do not believe that abolishing racist programs will hurt anyone.
I have no time for discrimination based on skin-color or gender and never will support racist programs.

[CKFresh]

The time to move on from the racism of our past is long over.

Convince members of your party (inthenet and detmurds) to stop being bigots and judging people by their last name and we won't need affirmative action. As long as bigots exists on a large scale, AA is necessary.

I do not believe that abolishing racist programs will hurt anyone.

AA isn't racist, but I know that is what you are referring to. Abolishing AA will hurt minorities, there is no question. In order to support such a move away from AA, you must understand that the immediate effect will be the widening of the gap between white and black in terms of wealth.

[Montrovant]

Convince members of your party (inthenet and detmurds) to stop being bigots and judging people by their last name and we won't need affirmative action. As long as bigots exists on a large scale, AA is necessary.



AA isn't racist, but I know that is what you are referring to. Abolishing AA will hurt minorities, there is no question. In order to support such a move away from AA, you must understand that the immediate effect will be the widening of the gap between white and black in terms of wealth.

Once again....it's got nothing to do with party. Are you going to claim there are no racist Dems?

Affirmative action, if it gives preferential treatment to anyone based on race, IS racist, or at least discriminatory.

If the gap in wealth between blacks and whites widens (and I notice you don't mention any other minority races....are hispanics, or asians, or native americans not affected by this?) because of a loss of preferential treatment, that's really too bad. What you seem to be saying is that without affirmative action, there will be widespread discrimination based on race as far as employment. That should be fought, certainly, but what we should have in this country is equality of opportunity, not equality of status. Preferential treatment based on race in an attempt to equalize financial status among races is wrong.

If, on the other hand, you are saying affirmative action does NOT give preferential treatment, then that's different. I've always been under the impression that it does, however.

[CKFresh]

Once again....it's got nothing to do with party. Are you going to claim there are no racist Dems?

There are, just very few.

Affirmative action, if it gives preferential treatment to anyone based on race, IS racist, or at least discriminatory.

But it is in response to racism. It works to even out the existing racism within society. It is not like the playing field is even to begin with. Affirmative action works to counter against the racists in the workplace that hold down minorities. It may be "racist" in theory, but in practice it is a mechanism to FIGHT racism.

If, on the other hand, you are saying affirmative action does NOT give preferential treatment, then that's different. I've always been under the impression that it does, however.

It does, but that is only because SOCIETY gives preferential treatment to whites. If we didn't have bigots in this country there would be no need for such a system. But we do. Once again, it works to fight against a society that refuses to provide equal opportunity to minorities.

When people like IntheNet no longer exist, Affirmative Action can be repealed. Until then, it is absolutely necessary to ensure that minorities are given a fair shake.

[tobynosker]

No one is going to call out InTheNet for insinuating that the gap in wealth between whites and blacks comes from African-Americans "waiting for welfare check and selling coke on the street corner"?

Over 12 million people are on welfare and over 300 metric tons of cocaine is consumed in the United States every year. Am I supposed to believe that only black people account for these totals, or should I just chalk it up to another one of InTheNet's hatred-filled and racist remarks that go unnoticed here?

[Montrovant]

They don't go unnoticed toby.....for myself, I just don't bother responding to a lot of things he may say anymore.

[Montrovant]

There are, just very few.



But it is in response to racism. It works to even out the existing racism within society. It is not like the playing field is even to begin with. Affirmative action works to counter against the racists in the workplace that hold down minorities. It may be "racist" in theory, but in practice it is a mechanism to FIGHT racism.



It does, but that is only because SOCIETY gives preferential treatment to whites. If we didn't have bigots in this country there would be no need for such a system. But we do. Once again, it works to fight against a society that refuses to provide equal opportunity to minorities.

When people like IntheNet no longer exist, Affirmative Action can be repealed. Until then, it is absolutely necessary to ensure that minorities are given a fair shake.

Fighting racism by practicing racism seems ridiculous :)

Providing equal opportunity is fine. Preferential treatment is NOT equal opportunity.

There will ALWAYS be racists, and bigots, and what have you. Which would mean we will always have affirmative action.

Again, equal opportunity is fine. And we should fight against discriminitory hiring practices (well, I could make a case for private owned businesses being able to discriminate, but let's not go there for the sake of ease :)). But the problem people have with affirmative action is that rather than trying to assure equality, it tries to assure minorities are hired regardless of qualification. Not to say that completely unqualified people get hired, but that less qualified people may based solely on race. That is promoting discrimination in the other direction.

[CKFresh]

Providing equal opportunity is fine. Preferential treatment is NOT equal opportunity.

You're right, white people STILL have more opportunity than minorities.

Not to say that completely unqualified people get hired, but that less qualified people may based solely on race. That is promoting discrimination in the other direction.

You don't think this happens anyway? If it works to empower minorities and create an equal playing field, then it is ultimately a good thing. The result is a good thing.

[catman]

Fresh, how does discrimination cure discrimination?

[Montrovant]

You're right, white people STILL have more opportunity than minorities.



You don't think this happens anyway? If it works to empower minorities and create an equal playing field, then it is ultimately a good thing. The result is a good thing.

Do you have experience or statistics to back that first statement up CK? Or is it based on something like average economic levels?

I wouldn't think you were an 'ends justify the means' kind of guy. However, are you saying that if minorities are getting screwed over by many businesses as far as hiring, that it's ok to turn around and screw over whites to make up for it?

For that matter, affirmative action has been around for a while now. If that economic gap is still so large, wouldn't that be an indication it is NOT levelling the playing field?

I can empathize with the ideas behind affirmative action. I can even agree that in the past it was neccessary. However, I believe racism has lessened enough that that need isn't there any longer. There certainly is plenty of it still around, but it's no longer the socially accepted norm it was. I believe anti-discrimination laws should be enforced, but that affirmative action, when it discriminates in favor of minorities, is not a solution.

[catman]

Convince members of your party (inthenet and detmurds) to stop being bigots and judging people by their last name and we won't need affirmative action. As long as bigots exists on a large scale, AA is necessary.



AA isn't racist, but I know that is what you are referring to. Abolishing AA will hurt minorities, there is no question. In order to support such a move away from AA, you must understand that the immediate effect will be the widening of the gap between white and black in terms of wealth.
How is Affirmative Action not racist? Giving people extra merits toward hiring or seats in professional schools based on their skin color is definitely racist.
Also, as Montrovant said, AA has been around for quite a while. If there is still a problem with minority hiring, it is not working and is a waste of money and time. Time to move forward, as opposed to looking backwards.

[CKFresh]

If there is still a problem with minority hiring, it is not working and is a waste of money and time

Really? Well the gap between blacks and whites has decreased quite a bit since Affirmative Action has been in place. The percentage of blacks with college degrees has increased, along with the number of "wealthy" african americans. At the same time, the number of white college graduates has not been effected.

So if this program is a "waste," tell that to the black community when you explain why it is ok for an employer to discriminate based on color. Explain to the black community that you want them to be as poor as they were 20 years ago. Because if you do away with AA, you will allow all of that to happen, ignoring the progress that AA has provided to the black community.

[catman]

Then why do you insist that it is still there? Isn't it possible that businesses "get it" and have discontinued their racist habits of the past?
How is there discrimination in hiring if AA is supposed to have solved the problems?
Fresh, your last post is very contradictory.
Again, how does more discrimination solve discrimination?

[CKFresh]

How is there discrimination in hiring if AA is supposed to have solved the problems?

It hasn't solved the problem, as Montro said, there will always be bigots, just ask IntheNet what he thinks of people with the middle name Hussein. AA doesn't solve the problem, but it provides better oportunity for minorities. It lessens the negative effect bigots can have on the well being of minorities.

Again, how does more discrimination solve discrimination?

The same way violence can prevent future violence. If people attack you, you attack back. If minorities are discriminated against constantly, we need to put policies in place to fight against that. If you see it as "discrimination," then I think you are not looking at the big picture. White's still have better opportunity and still make a lot more money in general. I guess you would rather have whites have all the money, leaving nothing for minorities.

Racists people SHOULD be discriminated against. AA discriminates against racists employers.

Let me also point out, this whole idea that "the less qualified person get's the job" is very rare and a racist statement. It asssumes that blacks are somehow inherently less qualified than whites. With AA, it simply requires employers and unviersities to bring in a certain percentage of minorities. Occassionally the less qualified person is accepted or hired, but it is very rare. Most times, it simply prevents racists and bigots from practicing racism in the workplace or university.

If you fight against AA, you really don't see the big picture.

[catman]

If you support AA, you are supporting the continuation of racism and the thought that minorities cannot get anywhere in the world without help from the Democrats.
The key to minorities achieving is to give minorities equal opportunities in education, not more opportunities because of their minority status.
You appear to believe that, left to their own choices, businesses would hire only white males. I, as a minority in my profession, will tell you that this is not necessarily true. A gentleman I got to know well a few years back was the St. Paul, MN Fire Chief. He told me that they had 25 vacancies on their department and had to offer interviews to over 200 people to fill them, due to their minority status. He said he didn't care about the skin color or gender of the applicant, just that they could do the job being asked of them. He was not allowed to give interviews to several white males, because they had not filled the quota of minority applicants being interviewed.
Tell me that was not discrimination.

[catman]

Again Fresh, how long do we continue racist programs like AA? When is enough racism enough?
If, as you said, AA does not solve the problem, why continue wasting time and money on it?

[CKFresh]

You appear to believe that, left to their own choices, businesses would hire only white males.

No, not all businesses or most businesses, BUT SOME WOULD.

Tell me that was not discrimination.

So you feel white people are the oppressed, and discriminated in this country? We should feel bad for white males in the USA? Give me a break. If a few white males are discriminated against to ensure racial tolerance and equal opportunity for minorities, OH WELL.

Seriously, do you expect ANYONE in the world to feel sorry for a white man in America? That's like asking someone to feel bad for the Yankees because they didn't make the playoffs.

[CKFresh]

Again Fresh, how long do we continue racist programs like AA? When is enough racism enough?
If, as you said, AA does not solve the problem, why continue wasting time and money on it?

It doesn't solve the problem, but it IMPROVES the situation.

Bigottry is not a problem that can be solved. We can only lessen the effects of bigots and work to help the oppressed. That's what AA does.

[catman]

It is a discriminatory program on its face, Fresh. How much discrimination do we need?

[catman]

No, not all businesses or most businesses, BUT SOME WOULD.



So you feel white people are the oppressed, and discriminated in this country? We should feel bad for white males in the USA? Give me a break. If a few white males are discriminated against to ensure racial tolerance and equal opportunity for minorities, OH WELL.

Seriously, do you expect ANYONE in the world to feel sorry for a white man in America? That's like asking someone to feel bad for the Yankees because they didn't make the playoffs.
If the reverse were true, and some black females were discriminated against, would you have the same "Oh Well" attitude about it?
Fresh, discrimination on anything but age or service is wrong. I do not object to the Senior Citizen discount, or veterans being given "special" treatment due to their status, but to give minorities points because of their status is just plain wrong.

[CKFresh]

Fresh, discrimination on anything but age or service is wrong

Your opinion. I disagree. If the "discrimination" helps those in needs, and only "hurts" those who are not in need, it is a good thing.

Again, look at the big picture.

[catman]

I see the "big" picture and still disagree with the continuation of racist programs like AA. As I said, it may have had a use when it was begun, but it has outlived its purpose and should be allowed to go away.
Again I ask, how much discrimination is enough?
How many poor white kids are not allowed a "break" because of their skin color? All whites are not "rich" you know. I wasn't and am still not. I achieved what I have due to my own efforts and am a minority in my profession. Yes, I was discriminated against. I had to work harder in school to be taken seriously. I had to suffer hazing on the job because I am a man in a female-dominated industry.
Don't tell me I cannot see the big picture.

[CKFresh]

All whites are not "rich" you know

Of course not, and that's not the point. Whites IN GENERAL have much more money per person than blacks. Whites IN GENERAL have greater opportunity than blacks EVEN WITH AA. AA simply works to even things out a bit.

We should end this converstation and agree to disagree. It is a fundamental difference in philisophy. I am an egalitarian, you are an elitist. We will never agree on this issue or things like welfare. Some people want to help others, some people don't.

[catman]

fine. This discussion is ended, but one day someone will tell me when AA has done all the discrimination needed to even the field for everyone.
I am, however, not an elitist. I am one that wants everyone to succeed on their own merits, not because some Government program gave them points on an application due to their minority status, while denying perfectly qualified white applicants the same opportunity. Note: I am not saying the minority applicants are unqualified, just that they are not more qualified than anyone else.