Casey Martin

[Spike]

I was just wondering what do you guys think about the Casey Martin case?

In case you hadn't heard his story he has a painful circulatory disorder in his right leg so he uses a cart to get around the course. The P.G.A. is opposed to that.

You know I don't want to sound cruel and cold, but I'm going to side with the P.G.A. on this one. Now, I've never played golf before or really know anything outside of Tiger Woods about the sport but I've had several people who golf tell me this, isn't walking the course part of playing? Getting drained physically and mentally by walking hot, long courses is part of the game. It can affect your concentration on each and every shot and as much as I sympathize with Martin's plight, letting him drive his cart could compromise that part of the game.

Anyways, it's up to the U.S. Supreme Court now.

[Marc]

Here's a news release for this topic: http://espn.go.com/golfonline/tours/s/2001/0114/1015688.html

If Martin can't compete at the level of other golfers because of a physical condition, he plain and simple shouldn't be playing. What's next? Wheel chairs for out-of-shape NBA players who can't run down the court?

[iFroggy]

Its a bit different then that Marc. :) Wheel chairs would actually directly impede (spelling?) upon the performance of other players in basketball. A golf cart will not directly cause another golfer to not perform.

I see both sides of this case. I understand the PGA and Mr. Martin and really can't/won't side with either. I met Mr. Martin a while back and I understand him fully... I mean, how can you not approach the situation thoughtfully? All the guy wants to do is play golf on a professional level against the best golfers in the world.

Then again, I understand the PGA's side of it in preserving what has stood for as long as the tour has been in existence. But, I do believe that times change and this might be one thing to change. I believe a man riding a golf cart because he has a leg problem is different then physically not being able to walk (i.e. a wheelchair).

Anyway, like I said, I really understand both sides. So, I'll let the rest of your debate it. :)

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by Spike
Now, I've never played golf before or really know anything outside of Tiger Woods about the sport but I've had several people who golf tell me this, isn't walking the course part of playing? Getting drained physically and mentally by walking hot, long courses is part of the game. It can affect your concentration on each and every shot...

...by no means am I professional golfer... I would probably fit two or three notches above "beginner," but I have ridden in a cart before, but most of the time I walk, and the two don't even compare.... you see, the front 9 of my course is pretty darn easy with not a single STEEP hill, but on the back 9, you will get very, very tired on a July day walking up hole #11, and it affects does affect your performance -- probably less for professional golfers who are actually in shape, but it still does affect it.


Originally posted by iFroggy
A golf cart will not directly cause another golfer to not perform.

Now consider what it would be like by Martin's partner and seeing him easily glide up the hill while you and your caddy's hearts are pumping hard, and you are sweating like crazy, while Martin is feeling a nice breeze from the sweet purr of his electric cart?


...the article Marc pointed us to is excellent. Read it.

Pro sports have the right to set their own rules, lawyer H. Bartow Farr III said.

But Martin's lawyer, Roy L. Reardon, contended walking is not fundamental to the game of golf. What counts is making the shots."

I rest my case -- walking, as I said, is DEFINITELY fundamental to the game, so I don't see how Martin can win on that argument.... he's played golf... he knows it makes a difference whether you ride a cart or walk -- that's what this argument is all about!!!

[iFroggy]

You see though on Martin's side he not like everyone else walking. I agree that fatigue is a factor. What I mean to say is that his condition - every step equals pain, he is already fatigued when he comes on to the golf course. The aches that you might have when your done walking. He has to live with it. I mean, if we were up here and the guy couldn't walk and I would definitely say No. But, the guy can walk and all he needs is a golf cart - this is not damaging to the game at all and does not create any competitive embalance.

Then again, I see both sides of this like I have said. Some golfers do believe that its not fair, and thats fine. The tour should be fighting I guess to keep a guy from riding a cart. But, if they lose, I certainly will support the judges decision, either way I will support it. I don't feel it can be ruled wrong.

On one side you have a person that wants to fulfill childhood dreams but is hindered because of a condition that allows him to walk, but not long distances and on the other side you have the tour which is protecting the history of no golf carts on the PGA tour. I certainly don't see a wrong party here. :)

[lmanchur.]

...well if Martin can ride in a carte, you might as well put Tiger Woods in a cart!

I don't care if "every step equals pain" for Martin... rules are rules... silly or not... fundamental or not...

...call me cold-hearted, but rules are rules and I don't see how anyone should be able to get around them... the PGA stands for the "Proffesional Golfers Assosiation" of America, and that assosiation has rules that must be obeyed by all its members/employees (whatever they should officially be called)

[Marc]

I think I'm siding with Lee on this.

There might be a lot of talented people in wheel chairs, but can we let them in the NBA? (Okay, so it's not the best example, but hopefully my point is clear.)

If people are born with disabilities, they are going to have to realize they won't be able to do everything, they will have restrictions. Mr. Martin thinks golf should bend the rules for him. Am I wrong?

[iFroggy]

As I've said I understand both sides. :) I am siding with Lee, the Tour, you and Mr. Martin at the same time. (Imagine that :))

No, wheelchairs in basketball is definitely not a good example. In baseketball people make physical contact, in golf they do not.

Bending the rules? Maybe... but am I incorrect to assume that before the Disabilities Act(s) that people that were handicapped were not allowed to do certain things by law and then were forced to be accomodated (spelling?) regardless of rules? Granted Mr. Martin is not handicapped, or not to the extent of many people.

Anyway, as it stands now the courts have rulled with Mr. Martin but the Court of Appeals is next.

[lmanchur.]

...okay, so if wheelchairs in basketball is a bad example, what about wheel chairs in the 100-M sprint?... what about Martin using a wheelchair on the course? -- I have no problem with that at all.

[iFroggy]

Wheelchairs in sports are for people that CANNOT leave the wheelchair, if only for a few seconds - in other words: cannot walk. Mr. Martin can walk, but a lot of walking is bad for his condition. The difference, in my opinion, is that he can still play the game how it was meant: Standing up and swinging. Swinging a golf club from a wheelchair wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed. The person in the wheelchair could not generate enough power to get their Tour card anyway - if Mr. Martin was in fact restricted to a wheelchair, he would not be here. My opinion of course.

[iFroggy]

Pst Lee, I found something you might be interested in.

http://www.pgatour.com/community/chat/weir011701.htm

Back to the regularly scheduled Casey Martin thread.

[lmanchur.]

(thanks, Patrick... I recently heard of the book he was making, and I should pick that up soon as a b-day present for my Dad 'cuz he's a lefty and do you know how hard it is to find ANYTHING (tv show or book or magazine) for lefty golfers!?!???!!!?!?)

Anyways, I see I can't force my opinion on you (about Martin), and neither can Martin himself, but I am strongly AGAINST him riding in a cart...

BTW, even if he does get the approval to ride in that thing, has he qualified for the PGA Tour!??... anyone who hasn't played in a PGA Tour even for so long surely can't be.... wait a minute..... just went to PGATour.com... he just played in the Tuscon Open... so he won the first battle and he can play until he is turned down (e.g.: the court of appeals)???

[iFroggy]

I have no idea really. It could be because he put in a decent showing (i.e. Top 10, Top 5) at a tournament last year, because of his Nike Tour record, or like you said because of court matters. But, I believe he MUST have qualified for the tour somehow. He can't just be their because a court says he can. He has to be allowed to ride in a cart and have a Tour card, that is unless he is invited to the event by the Tour or even sponsors, which wouldn't be the case. :)

[lmanchur.]

Someone tell me how Martin did this!: http://www.pgatour.com/players/results/2000/20445.html

...he won $143,248 on Tour last year!... check that page over -- most of those ring a bell as major or well-known PGA Events (not the Nike Tour or whatever its called now).


...and what about this!?: http://www.pgatour.com/players/results/20445.html

is he playing with a cart NOW, and will only stop if the courts rule him to in July!????

[iFroggy]

I'm sorry Lee, I don't understand. Do you mean how he qualified? Maybe that much money is enough to qualify. That was good enough for 179th on the money list and possibly you can qualify by that. I have no idea at all about the qualifying rules... trying to find out.

Not sure if this has information your interested in, but your welcome to check it out. http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/adagolf.htm

[Rick Dogg]

This is ridiculus. Casey Martin should not be in the PGA, period. I totally agree with the fact that PRIVATE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULES. The PGA is like a club. Here is a better example than the wheelchair one; imagine a white guy complaining that he is not allowed to be in the United Negro College Fund, just because he is white and that goes against their rules. And its not like he can never golf again, just not on a proffesional level. He wont even need to get a job after this because you know that he will recieve donations and become a public speaker for those with disabilities. He will be rolling in it.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by iFroggy
I'm sorry Lee, I don't understand. Do you mean how he qualified?....

Not sure if this has information your interested in, but your welcome to check it out. http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/adagolf.htm

...I was wondering how he was playing -- if he used a cart or not to get that money. But that link sums it up for me, thanks.

Originally posted by Rick Reighard
This is ridiculus. Casey Martin should not be in the PGA, period. I totally agree with the fact that PRIVATE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULES. The PGA is like a club. Here is a better example than the wheelchair one; imagine a white guy complaining that he is not allowed to be in the United Negro College Fund, just because he is white and that goes against their rules. And its not like he can never golf again, just not on a proffesional level. He wont even need to get a job after this because you know that he will recieve donations and become a public speaker for those with disabilities. He will be rolling in it.

Rick, we don't agree on many things, but your example is better than Marc's of a wheelchaired-basketball player, and you are exactly, 100% right... totally agree with you!!!

[Rick Dogg]

Thanks Lee. That is kind of surprising!

[iFroggy]

Originally posted by Rick Reighard
This is ridiculus. Casey Martin should not be in the PGA, period. I totally agree with the fact that PRIVATE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULES. The PGA is like a club. Here is a better example than the wheelchair one; imagine a white guy complaining that he is not allowed to be in the United Negro College Fund, just because he is white and that goes against their rules. And its not like he can never golf again, just not on a proffesional level. He wont even need to get a job after this because you know that he will recieve donations and become a public speaker for those with disabilities. He will be rolling in it.

Well, I can kinda agree with that. But, that is a wide genre. Do you mean that private associations should be able to not let blacks, hispanics, asians, etc in? I mean, the United Negro College Fund, is a college fund for blacks. Its different from say the PGA Tour or your local Elks club or even the NRA. They require membership submission. What this translates to is discrimination when accepting new members. Is this what you are getting at?

[Rick Dogg]

No. I was using an example of a private association making their own rules. They are not discriminating against handicaps, but you have to walk, and he cant, so he cant play in the pros. He does not fit the requirements. It would be like me complaining that they didnt let me play because im not good enough.

[iFroggy]

Not really. It would be like you complaining because you have a problem with one leg and can't walk long distances without extreme pain, but your dream has always been to play on the tour and you want to be able to just with a cart.

Anyway... I agree with everyone's reasoning so far. :)

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by iFroggy
...but your dream has always been to play on the tour and you want to be able to just with a cart.

My dream is to play in the National Hockey League. However, I'm too small, so I think the NHL should implement a rule to ban anyone from hitting me, or checking me with their stick so I can get a decent shot off, because my shot isn't that hard or accurate anyhow.

See the comparison? I know you're going to counter, Patrick, with "but playing disabled affects the other players in hockey," well, it does in golf, too -- just not DIRECTLY, like in basketball and hockey.

[iFroggy]

Sorry, in golf size does not directly matter as their is no physical contact, You could be 1 foot nothing, but as long as you can hit a golf ball, you can stick around. :)

Don't start coming after me Lee (lol :D)... I already said I agreed with most, if not all of the points made here. :)

[Rick Dogg]

Ifroggy, we are making examples. These are not everyday regular situations. Like when you assumed I was talking about racism and descrimination, and you thought Lee was talking directly about size when in actuallity, we are just making similar examples of leagues making rules. And that thing about him saying it is his lifelong dream, that is just mushy crap his lawyers put in to make people feel bad for him. Dreams are not always achieved. This world is not perfect. Lets vote on this. Put yes if you think he should play, no if you think he should not. My vote goes as a huge NO!

[iFroggy]

I abstain and Rick I didn't assume anything - I inquired as to if that was what you meant.

[RaviPachai]

I have been playing golf for 6 years and I believe walking is an integral part of the golfing game. I think the P.G.A tour definitely has to stand up to this and hopefully they will prevail.

I won't give you an example Patrick but rather a real life situation. Everyone knows John Daly has alcohol problems. Alcolohism is a chronic psychological and nutritional disorder. Should the P.G.A make acceptions for John Daly ? or no simply because it's not a physical disorder. I'm sure his disorder affects his game alot more then Martin's because as we all know golf is very much a mental game.

So John Daly's disease affects his play...is he asking for any sort of special treatment? Do they give it to him? No, should he get it? No, the rules of golf are defined, while walking may not be written in stone it is a tradition, a tradition I don't feel should be broken.

Casey Martin is a good golfer, sure he is. Maybe the P.G.A tour just isn't for him, there are plenty of other options he can consider.

Ravi

[iFroggy]

Well, your right, it isn't physical. I have met John Daly, and regardless of what you think, he does not drink as much as portrayed by the media. But, thats regardless, alcoholism is similar to substance abuse and is self inflicted.

[RaviPachai]

I have met John Daly too, I have also seen him break down and cry due to his condition. Self inflicted or not, it is a disease which effects his game as much or more then Casey Martin's handicap.

So you're saying that people with "self-inflicted" handicaps, whether it be mental or physical shouldn't be allowed in but those with natural should?

Where do you draw the line?

Ravi

[iFroggy]

Well, you are saying alcohol which is like substance abuse. It is an addiction. You shouldn't give people a special right in golf because they are addicted to something. They can go to clinics and get their act together. Mr. Martin isn't addicted to anything and he didn't do this to himself.

Thats where I draw the line. Its not an addiction, its not self inflicted. As to diseases: If they can still play the game, can attain a card, and walk - then they can play. If they need a cart, thats a whole different court case.

As I have said, I understand both sides. But, all said and done, I think probably the PGA Tour is correct.

[iFroggy]

I have just put some real thought into this and have come up with a decision.

On one side, I feel very, very, very sorry for Casey Martin.

On the other side, when making this ruling it must be put into mind that he should be considered a normal person equal to any other pro. Looking at it this way, riding a cart is a huge unfair advantage. And I would say that No, he should not be allowed to ride of a golf cart.

But, I do feel very bad for the guy. :(

[RaviPachai]

Patrick,

Have you been ever been addicted to alcohol? I surely hope not, I've had to study alcohol addictions. It not as easy to say he can go to a clinic. I wish it were as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Out of all the drugs out there people are more likely to die from alcohol withdrawal, there are studies which back up this. Sure I agree it is inflicted but it is an illness. How do you know John Daly didn't have a natural predisposition to alcoholism ? you don't...and then what?

!Still, I do feel sorry for Casey Martin, is it just the P.G.A tour which won't let him on? Can he go play on other tours or do they have the same rule set? I'm sure something will work out for him!

Ravi

[Rick Dogg]

Wow! A surprise verdict. I dint see that comming! So far no is winning 2-0

[iFroggy]

Originally posted by RaviPachai
Patrick,

Have you been ever been addicted to alcohol? I surely hope not, I've had to study alcohol addictions. It not as easy to say he can go to a clinic. I wish it were as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Out of all the drugs out there people are more likely to die from alcohol withdrawal, there are studies which back up this. Sure I agree it is inflicted but it is an illness. How do you know John Daly didn't have a natural predisposition to alcoholism ? you don't...and then what?
Ravi

Alcholism IS SELF INFLICTED. It can not be considered the same as a problem with your leg. Unless you get an axe and hack into your own leg!

Alcohol, and nicotine are like drugs! You can become addicted to both and both are horrible for your health.

Thats my opinion. There are new "studies" on alcohol coming out everyday basically. But, its my belief that smoking, drinking and drug use are addicting and bad for your health, and are in the end self inflicted because it is you alone that can make the choice to smoke, drink or take drugs.

[RaviPachai]

I understand what you are trying to say..do you understand what I am saying? Once Martin get's through people with all sorts of handicaps from mental to physical will be demanding the same treatment.

And if the court rules for Martin whats to stop the other thousand people with handicaps who are brilliant at golf from taking the P.G.A to court. Walking is a big part of the traditional golf game, it will always be (or should always be).

I understand what you've been saying, and I do feel sorry for him, and sometimes I wish they would let him in the P.G.A Tour but..I do have mixed feelings but lean more towards keeping traditions (at least in this game).

Ravi

[iFroggy]

Yes, I agree, that is why I decided he shouldn't be allowed and said No. I do understand what you are saying.

In the last post you were talking about alcohol use and I didn't agree with that. :) But, this latest post makes perfect sense.

[lmanchur.]

Throw my vote in for "NO"

[RaviPachai]

where in Canada SC-Lee? I'm at the University Of Western Ontario in London Ont. :)

Ravi

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by RaviPachai
where in Canada SC-Lee? I'm at the University Of Western Ontario in London Ont.

Whoa!... that question came out of nowhere!... how did you get that one???

I live in Manitoba, and would really like to head out your way a little more East than London, though -- Waterloo and the University of Waterloo in a few year when I graduate -- supposedly the best in the country for Computer Science!!! :)

[RaviPachai]

hey Lee,

I have a friend who goes to Waterloo, very good school for the Mathmetics related subjects. I am currently studying Computer Science at UWO (western) and I have friend studying CS at Waterloo, for some reason it took them a bit longer to get into Java, while we hopped straight in (though that may not always been the best thing). I think they were studying another easy language because i know he's doing Java now.

My one suggestion to you is, if Waterloo is what you're aiming for. Work, because the students of Waterloo (that I have seen and heard) are very hard workers and my friend who was the top math student in our year was struggling to the point of (thinking about) changin his major from Computer Science to something else not math related.

The first year is probably the hardest (getting adjusted and such) but if you're ready for it, you'll get through. I also know that Waterloo has connections with Microsoft Canada and some other big companies which hire their grads. Western has connections with IBM and Bell Mobility, they provide internships for students in their 3rd year of CS or Engineering, I am hoping I can get into that.

Anyway, a little of topic here :)! I hope you dont mind Patrick

Ravi

[iFroggy]

Of course not. :)

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by RaviPachai
My one suggestion to you is, if Waterloo is what you're aiming for. Work, because the students of Waterloo (that I have seen and heard) are very hard workers and my friend who was the top math student in our year was struggling to the point of (thinking about) changin his major from Computer Science to something else not math related.

The first year is probably the hardest (getting adjusted and such) but if you're ready for it, you'll get through. I also know that Waterloo has connections with Microsoft Canada and some other big companies which hire their grads. Western has connections with IBM and Bell Mobility, they provide internships for students in their 3rd year of CS or Engineering, I am hoping I can get into that.

Well GEE!... thanks for putting "no pressure" on me!... as if I don't have enough already.... my marks are about the second best in my class (which doesn't say much, because there are only 14 people in my class and our school is small and I am taking ZERO computer courses this year because of that) -- my average is 86%, and I've maintained that in all my 2.3 years of high school so far... I don't think I will get into Waterloo, but #2 on my list is U of Victoria even though it's not 2nd best in the country (according to Maclean's), then Simon-Fraser & Guelph I heard are pretty good...

[RaviPachai]

Hey,

I wouldn't put on th pressure if it didn't happen. I don't know one person who has gotten into the science faculty (mathematics) at Waterloo and said it was a breeze. You won't be competing against Canadians, you will be competing against students all over the world (Waterloo I believe has the highest population of Asians). It ain't easy!!

Anyway, I haven't heard of the other two? Is that one college the simon..one (sorry to lazy to click the review to check). Or were you talking about University Of Guelph??

Ravi

[Marc]

Peter Gloviczki, Jr. has written a good article on Casey Martin here: http://www.sports-central.org/sports/golf/articles/article62.shtml

Martin is arguing that because of his KTW syndrome, he is covered under the ADA and that necessary accommodations, in this case, the use of a golf-cart, must be made.

The PGA tour argues against this statement by citing the following, "Perhaps the most fundamental attribute of elite sports competitions: that all competitors are required to play by the same substantive rules."

This, in my view, would be true, except Martin has a condition which automatically makes the fulfillment of these rules as they are stated impossible, and because of his disability, he must be given his rightful accommodations as defined in the ADA.
Thoughts?

[iFroggy]

Well, first, I continue to understand and agree with both sides of this issue. :)

That column was well written and makes its points. But, I'd still be inclined to vote for the PGA Tour. Because, Martin cannot be considered as a different person, but as a normal person, and as such can't ride in a golf cart as it is an unfair advantage.

[statmanpg]

It is my view that although he is a "normal person" he has a condition which inhibits his muscle strength, and for this reason, accomadations need to be made for him. Period. That's just my view.

[statmanpg]

It is not an unfair advantage for Martin because he is faced with a disadvantage in his KTW. It is my opinion that allowing Martin to use a golf-cart merely levels the playing field. Golf is about hitting a ball with a club, not walking.

[RaviPachai]

if you played golf or were serious about golf you would understand that walking is a very important part of the game.

i wont sit and argue all this over again. Everyone has their own opinions and thats fine, but please before you express yours make sure you are well educated on the subject at hand. and if you are, if you happen to be a scratch golfer and believe that then so be it, thats fine !

if golf was about "hitting" a ball then someone has been lieing to me for the last 6 years. Golf is about management, it's not about "how far can you hit" it's about "where you can hit it", golf involves alot more then simply standing up to a ball and hitting it. Im positive you will find that having a cart greatly alters your mental part of the game, which is a very big part of golf.


Ravi

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by statmanpg
It is my view that although he is a "normal person" he has a condition which inhibits his muscle strength, and for this reason, accomadations need to be made for him. Period. That's just my view.

Yes, but rules are RULES, and rules are put in place for a reason. The rules in the PGA Tour state that you have to walk the course.

I don't know about you, but I think Tiger Woods, and everyone else on Tour, would be a MUCH better golfer if they didn't waste all their energy walking, and they all took a cart!!!

The PGA Tour is for just who it says its for: "Professional Golfers." If someone can't play at the professional level without bending the rules, TOO BAD.

[statmanpg]

SC-Lee, while I respect your opinion, I strongly disagree. However, each issue has two sides, and we just happen to be on opposite sides on this issue. That's Fine, It's called freedom of expression. Would you be interested in collaborating sometime on work? I think our viewpoints could provide interesting insight. Let me know, Peter

[Marc]

Again, I have to agree with Lee. When I gave my example of wheelchairs in basketball, it had more meaning and depth than you would think. I meant that if the athletes can't compete using the rules and methods everyone else can, that's too bad. As Lee said, rules are rules and they must be followed. If you can't meet them, that's unfortunate, but you'll have to live with them.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by statmanpg
Would you be interested in collaborating sometime on work? I think our viewpoints could provide interesting insight. Let me know, Peter

Huh!?... sorry -- I'm not following you!

[Marc]

Lee, I think he's suggesting you do an article with him on this issue... sort of a debate article. You can e-mail him by using the e-mail on his profile page.

[Marc]

"statmanpg" accidentally posted a new thread when he meant to reply in this thread. The following is his message:

Yep., Marc is right, that's what I meant. Any interest? Let me know.

I am not under the dellusion that I can change your minds, I don't expect to be able to change your minds. However, I think I probably see this issue much differently then you too. Be that as it may, debate is always healthy.

PJGJr


[Edited by M. James on 01-29-2001 at 10:02 PM]

[iFroggy]

I am going to respond to all of this when I feel better. I am really, really sick right now. Keep the thread going guys. :)

[iFroggy]

Well, as I was looking over it again, I see there's not much to say. Just healthy discussion going on here. :)