We've got to settle something...

[lmanchur.]

Here we go... this will be a long, hard battle... I might be the only one that's right ( ;) ), but I'm prepared to tackle you all.

Who is the greatest player of Pro Sports ALL-Time?

You have TWO choices: Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky.

No one else. No one else possibly has a chance of being given a mention, except POSSIBLY Tiger Woods 25 years from now... but right now, all you have to chose from is Jordan or Gretzky.

I'm short on time, so I'll post my opinions on this issue later. Someone else can get the discussion (argument) started...

[Wedge231]

Gretzky I say. He played a long time and helped out many teams, not just one. I'm sure many people he played with learned a lot from him. He also shows what hard work can accomplish. I read he is not very strong at all and always scored the lowest on the strength tests the teams had him do. Plus, Gretzky played for an NY team :)

[Marc]

Originally posted by Wedge231
Gretzky I say. He played a long time and helped out many teams, not just one. I'm sure many people he played with learned a lot from him. He also shows what hard work can accomplish. I read he is not very strong at all and always scored the lowest on the strength tests the teams had him do. Plus, Gretzky played for an NY team :)
Who cares how many teams he helped? Michael Jordan didn't just help his team, he helped the entire sport. He made basketball what it is today, and I don't care what you say, but basketball is overall more popular than hockey. Hockey is still developing and growing, but that's beside my point. Michael was able to stay with one team and make the players around him better. Unlike Gretzky, he didn't travel through numerous teams in his career.

Oh, and what about Muhammad Ali? I think he and Michael Jordan are the two single most significant and greatest names in sports history. Where was Gretzky on ESPN's Greatest Athletes of the Century? Ali and M.J. were the last two, and rightfully so.

[Wedge231]

If you say so. I don't like basketball. I like hockey a lot more. To me, the NHL's players aren't as greedy as the other leagues' players.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by M. James
Who cares how many teams he helped? Michael Jordan didn't just help his team, he helped the entire sport. He made basketball what it is today, and I don't care what you say, but basketball is overall more popular than hockey. Hockey is still developing and growing, but that's beside my point. Michael was able to stay with one team and make the players around him better. Unlike Gretzky, he didn't travel through numerous teams in his career.

Oh, and what about Muhammad Ali? I think he and Michael Jordan are the two single most significant and greatest names in sports history. Where was Gretzky on ESPN's Greatest Athletes of the Century? Ali and M.J. were the last two, and rightfully so. Yes... I guress you're right that Ali should be added to the list... but if you haven't noticed, SI is a biased newsletter... they don't CARE about hockey... when was the last time that magazine did a cover story about a specific player or team!?...

Now, about MJ and Gretzky... Chris was right.. yeah, Gretzky really helped boost hockey in a few cities, but to say that overall he didn't help the sport is wrong, which is what Chris' statement was missing.

"Michael was abel to...make the players around him better." Gretzky DIDN'T!?.. Sure, the Oilers of the 80s had a great nucleus of talent, but it ALL centered around Gretzky, and I doubt that they would have won FIVE Stanley Cups without him... possibly a few, but that's it.

Gretzky ENORMOUSLY helped the league. When he was basically sold to Los Angeles, people down there all of a sudden turned their heads and looked at this amazing player and the sport and because of that, Gretzky also popularized the sport in the southern states. There is a question as to whether or not Gretzky actually majorly contributed to the expansion of the league in the southern states, but I believe that he DEFINITELY did. Without Gretzky, players would not be getting played what they are today in the NHL. Without Gretzky, there would not be as much emphasis by the league to expand down south.

Another thing -- Gretzky holds or is tied for over SIXTY NHL scoring records!... Where is MJ in the record books?... definitely not as dominant as Gretzky in that department.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Wedge231
If you say so. I don't like basketball. I like hockey a lot more. To me, the NHL's players aren't as greedy as the other leagues' players.
Who cares how greedy they are? That's not the purpose of this thread, it's the best athlete of all time.

Originally posted by SC-Lee
Yes... I guress you're right that Ali should be added to the list... but if you haven't noticed, SI is a biased newsletter... they don't CARE about hockey... when was the last time that magazine did a cover story about a specific player or team!?...

Now, about MJ and Gretzky... Chris was right.. yeah, Gretzky really helped boost hockey in a few cities, but to say that overall he didn't help the sport is wrong, which is what Chris' statement was missing.

"Michael was abel to...make the players around him better." Gretzky DIDN'T!?.. Sure, the Oilers of the 80s had a great nucleus of talent, but it ALL centered around Gretzky, and I doubt that they would have won FIVE Stanley Cups without him... possibly a few, but that's it.

Gretzky ENORMOUSLY helped the league. When he was basically sold to Los Angeles, people down there all of a sudden turned their heads and looked at this amazing player and the sport and because of that, Gretzky also popularized the sport in the southern states. There is a question as to whether or not Gretzky actually majorly contributed to the expansion of the league in the southern states, but I believe that he DEFINITELY did. Without Gretzky, players would not be getting played what they are today in the NHL. Without Gretzky, there would not be as much emphasis by the league to expand down south.

Another thing -- Gretzky holds or is tied for over SIXTY NHL scoring records!... Where is MJ in the record books?... definitely not as dominant as Gretzky in that department.
Actually, I said it was ESPN, not SI. ESPN is not not especially biast toward anything IMO, so don't go giving me that.

[Wedge231]

Ok, you're right, money has nothing to do with it, all pro athletes make way too much...

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by M. James
Actually, I said it was ESPN, not SI. ESPN is not not especially biast toward anything IMO, so don't go giving me that.Oops... My bad... but if Gretzky wasn't in the top two or three... there's something DEFINITELY wrong.

Why didn't you respond to any of my other points, Marc!?... can't argue them!?.. he he .... j.j.!... but I would like some more discussion going....

Another thing Chris mentioned something else about Gretzky that I didn't comment on was that "he is not very strong at all and always scored the lowest on the strength tests the teams had him do." Well, I never heard anything about strength tests, but he was DEFINITELY not the strongest player... almost the WEAKEST player in the league, if you ask me. Yet (though he usually had a "body gaurd" on his line... an "enforcer"-type player protecting him), he smashed scoring records and made just unbelieveable plays.. he had eyes in the back of his head like no one had ever seen!... his passes were RIGHT on the money EVERY TIME.... don't believe me... consider this... FACT: Gretzky could have NEVER scored an NHL goal and STILL lead the league in scoring many times (I forget the exact number)... he could have also been the #1 NHL scorer or ALL-TIME having never scored an NHL goal!... no one ever dominanted the playing surface of any sport like that... no one.

He simply wasted records... goal records? scoring records? playoffs? regular season? awards? all-star games?... you name it -- he has the record for it.

[Wedge231]

I'm not sure if the thing I read on strength tests was accurate. I read it in a biography of him for a book report back while I was maybe 12 years old.

[PeterDewar]

I vote for Wayne... for reasons already mentioned above.

Holds/tied for 60 NHL Records
Brought the NHL to the US in a sense

[lmanchur.]

...one other thing I forgot to add in my vote for Gretzky...


...he was SOLID right from his first NHL season to his LAST NHL season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but MJ was in the NBA for quite some time before MJ actually began to take on a "superstar" status... Gretzky was hyped ever since he was 12 years old!

...and Gretzky lived up to the hype... if it weren't for the NHL being so technical, Gretzky would have won the rookie of the year trophy (the NHL deemed that since Gretzky played one year in the WHA, another pro hockey league, he was inelidgeable for the NHL's rookie of the year award)..... Gretzky played unbelieveable through his entire season, and did it RIGHT through his ENTIRE 20 year career.... he probably could have kept playing in the NHL for a few more years, because even in his final season, he had over sixty points..

[iFroggy]

Michael Jordan - enough said, I don't have to go through everything.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by iFroggy
Michael Jordan - enough said, I don't have to go through everything. To me, right now, that's just another name... "Michael Jordan"... there's not "enough said," or else I've won the argument because I've presented MUCH more "proof" than anyone else that Gretzky is definitley the all-time athlete of the century.... so prove your point and don't back out the easy way, Patrick!!!

...let me recap everything I've presented so far: Gretzky lead the way to five Oilers Stanley Cups Gretzky did not fit the typical build of a hockey player, yet completed dominated the game from his first season, 1980, right to 1999. Paved the way for NHL teams in the southern states Created the opportunity for other players to earn lots of cash... Gretzky was the first $1 million player in hockey Holds or ties over SIXTY NHL records.

Right now, this is all you guys have presented Chris, Peter, and I with that MJ is better than 'Gretz: Michael Jordan didn't just help his team, he helped the entire sport. He made basketball what it is todayI don't understand... what do you mean, "he made basketball what it is today." Gretzky helped expand the NHL to the USA. MJ never helpd the NBA expand to CAN... what do you mean by that statemement? Michael was able to stay with one team and make the players around him better.Sure... I can accept that one... that's pretty impressive for a superstar who other teams probably would have payed more money to have him play for their teams, but he decided to stay in Chicago.

So.... TWO things for MJ.... FIVE for Gretzky... Patrick -- do some explainin'... "enough said" doesn't cut it here!!!

[Marc]

Below is the article from ESPN.com (http://espn.go.com/espninc/pressreleases/991227scno1.html) further justifying my opinion that Michael Jordan was without a shadow of a doubt the greatest athlete ever. I might add Gretzky was only a distant *fourth*.
Basketball star Michael Jordan has been named the greatest North American athlete of the 20th century by an industry-wide panel of 48 knowledgeable journalists and observers. The countdown of the century's 50 greatest athletes, part of ESPN's extensive SportsCentury project presented by General Motors, began in January with weekly athlete profiles and culminated with yesterday's hour-long program unveiling the top two athletes.

The final four athletes were as follows: No. 1 - Jordan, No. 2 - Babe Ruth, No. 3 - Muhammad Ali and No. 4 - Jim Brown. The panel was asked to vote based on athletic ability alone.

In all, the top 50 featured 11 baseball players, nine football players, eight basketball players, seven track and field athletes, five golfers, four tennis players, three boxers, three hockey players, one swimming/diving athlete, one speed skater and one horse. Note: Certain athletes counted in multiple sports.

"Michael Jordan's individual ability to drive his team to greatness is legendary," said Mark Shapiro, SportsCentury coordinating producer. "He controlled his sport and reinvented his sport and in the process, he demonstrated incredible athletic ability and determination. He will forever be synonymous with winning and super-stardom."

You guys make claims that Gretzky was so good because he didn't have a superhuman body, neither did Jordan. Jordan was average size for NBA players, and skinny starting off, at that.
On April 20, 1986, Jordan set the NBA playoff record for most points in a game with 63 in a double-overtime loss to Boston, 135-131. After the game, Larry Bird said, "That was God disguised as Michael Jordan."
Playing 11 full seasons in the NBA, Jordan led the league in scoring 10 times, and in 1986-87 became the only player besides Wilt Chamberlain to score more than 3,000 points in a season, getting 3,041. His 31.5 scoring average is the highest in NBA history and with 29,277 points he's fourth all-time behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain and Karl Malone.
In the first year alone Nike's Air Jordans grossed an astronomical $130 million.
In 1991 a portion of Interstate 40 that runs to Wilmington was named for Jordan.
Jordan holds the NBA Finals record for most points-per-game in a series, averaging 41 against the Phoenix Suns in 1993.
Jordan recorded the only triple-double in an All-Star Game when he scored 14 points, pulled down 11 rebounds and had 11 assists in 1997.
Jordan could not only score, he could also keep others from scoring. He was named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1988 and was selected to the All-Defensive First Team nine times. He shares the career record for leading the league in steals three times.
Jordan has appeared on the cover of "Sports Illustrated" 47 times, more than any other athlete. One belittling cover came when he was playing minor league baseball with the Birmingham Barons and the caption read, "Bag It, Michael." Jordan stopped talking to the magazine after that.

[Jersey Devil]

No way that Babe Ruth is the best athlete ever. Sure Babe's got 700 some HRs, but he's tops in Ks too. And I'm not talking about his pitching. If you're going to be the greatest athlete ever, you can't be that high up on a negative category.

I don't see Ali or Brown being the best ever either.

So yes, it's down to Gretzky / Jordan. This is something I've gotten think a little longer about.

Can somebody do me a favor and find me the 60+ records Gretzky has?

[lmanchur.]

THERE WE GO!!!!!!... now we have some discussion and arguments going!!!!!... exactly what I wanted!!!!

...one question: who the hll is JIM BROWN (number four)!?.... I'm guessing some sort of football player.... but I really don't know.... nearly everyone else on that list I've heard of but JIM BROWN.


Anyways........ I don't accept the fact that ESPN ranked Gretzky the fifth best athlete of all-time... they said, "A distinguished panel of 48 journalists, historians, observers and administrators have determined the 50 greatest North American athletes of the past 100 years," yet the panel includes ONLY people from the USA... so of course MJ will be first... it's like, if 48 people from Canada did this, it would most definitley be Gretzky... it's not fair... if they are going to rank the top North American athletes of the century, then they should have a North American panel!!!

Anyways, to counter your points.....

You guys make claims that Gretzky was so good because he didn't have a superhuman body, neither did Jordan.
Hockey is a more physically-demanding sport than basketball, where the players are MUCH more at risk of SERIOUS injury. With Gretzky's size, he could have been out of the league in a few years!... look at Eric Lindros, one of the biggest players in the game, but has six concussions in less than ten years!... Gretzky remained relatively healty throughout his ENTIRE career!... I'm not saying Jordan didn't, because he DID, but 20 years with just one serious injury (was it his back?), is quite remarkable in HOCKEY.

On April 20, 1986, Jordan set the NBA playoff record for most points in a game with 63 in a double-overtime loss to Boston, 135-131.
Gretzky holds FOUR NHL single-game playoff records, including most points (4), most short handed goals (2), most assists (6), and most assists in a period.

Playing 11 full seasons in the NBA, Jordan led the league in scoring 10 times
Gretzky also lead the NHL in scoring 10 times... he collected his first scoring title in just his second NHL season.

in 1986-87 (Jordan) became the only player besides Wilt Chamberlain to score more than 3,000 points in a season, getting 3,041.
Gretzky is second to NO ONE in points in a season... he hit the 200 point mark FOUR TIMES and no one else has ever done it once!

His 31.5 scoring average is the highest in NBA history
That's the ONE record Gretzky doesn't have IF you are talking about career all-time... if not, then I've got you beat again because Gretzky has the most goals per game (1.18), assists per game (2.04), and points per game in a single season (2.77) of anyone in NHL history... he could also end up having the most PPG in his career if Lemieux falters these next few seasons in his comeback.

with 29,277 points he's fourth all-time behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain and Karl Malone
Again, Gretzky is second to NO ONE in all-time points with 2,857 (allow me to add insult to injury... he also has the most assists of all-time with 1,963, and goals of all-time with 894)

In the first year alone Nike's Air Jordans grossed an astronomical $130 million. You said this wasn't about money, but, again, Gretzky was the first $1-million man in hockey.

Jordan holds the NBA Finals record for most points-per-game in a series, averaging 41 against the Phoenix Suns in 1993.
Gretzky holds the NHL Stanley Cup Finals record for most points in a series with 13 against the Boston Bruins in 1988.

Jordan recorded the only triple-double in an All-Star Game when he scored 14 points, pulled down 11 rebounds and had 11 assists in 1997.
There are no such things as "triple-doubles" in hockey, so allow me to go over Gretzky's All-Star records... Games (14), goals in a period (4), career goals (12), goals in a game (4), points in a period (4), and points in a carerr (19)

Jordan could not only score, he could also keep others from scoring. He was named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1988 and was selected to the All-Defensive First Team nine times.
Defensive players aren't rewarded for their efforts in hockey via "all-defensive teams." There is, however, the Selke Trophy that goes to the best defensive forward, which, I admit, Gretzky never won. However, Gretzky's plus-minus for his entire career was +503, which is very good... I'm not sure, but I would assume among the all-time leaders.

Jordan has appeared on the cover of "Sports Illustrated" 47 times, more than any other athlete.
This is not an official NBA record. Gretzky holds over 60 official NHL records. However, if you want to talk magazines, Gretzky first appeared on a national magazine when he was ELEVEN.

Gretzky has Jordan beat in all but 1.5 categories (the half is the one I wasn't sure about... PPG).


Gretzky rules.

[iFroggy]

Originally posted by SC-Lee

So.... TWO things for MJ.... FIVE for Gretzky... Patrick -- do some explainin'... "enough said" doesn't cut it here!!!

Um... Lee...

See that lake over there (may still be frozen). Yeah that one behind you. Jump in it, you need to cool yourself down. ;)

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by Jersey Devil
Can somebody do me a favor and find me the 60+ records Gretzky has? ...they're all at CNNSI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/news/1999/04/15/records/)... for the main Gretzky page at CNNSI.com, click here (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/news/1999/04/14/gretzky_tribute/).

...Patrick... I said that jokingly... sorry... I should have added a smilie there... instead, I'll put it here! :) :D :) :D ....BTW, the lakes around here are kind of still half-frozen.... if I jumped hard enough, I could probably break through the ice, though. Ha ha! :)

Also, it's nice to see the "big NBA dude"... the NBA Moderator... of this board actually questioning if the greatest basketball player of all-time is better or worse than the greatest hockey player of all-time!!!!!... cool! :)

Now... back to Gretzky and Mike....

[Marc]

Anyways........ I don't accept the fact that ESPN ranked Gretzky the fifth best athlete of all-time... they said, "A distinguished panel of 48 journalists, historians, observers and administrators have determined the 50 greatest North American athletes of the past 100 years," yet the panel includes ONLY people from the USA... so of course MJ will be first... it's like, if 48 people from Canada did this, it would most definitley be Gretzky... it's not fair... if they are going to rank the top North American athletes of the century, then they should have a North American panel!!!
It's not fair? Give me a break. Gretzky also played a lot in America, with American teams and playing American teams. Don't give me that.

Gretzky holds FOUR NHL single-game playoff records, including most points (4), most short handed goals (2), most assists (6), and most assists in a period.
In my mind, there haven't been as many *GREAT* hockey legends in the past as there as been in the NBA. Thus, Jordan has more competition from players who played longer than him. Let's not forget he retired when he was on the top of his game, hitting the clutch shot to win another NBA championship.

Gretzky is second to NO ONE in points in a season... he hit the 200 point mark FOUR TIMES and no one else has ever done it once!
As I said above, hockey doesn't have as much of a history of great players as the NBA does. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time, but he didn't have the competition that others did.

That's the ONE record Gretzky doesn't have IF you are talking about career all-time...
Yes, I am. Ha! :D

You said this wasn't about money, but, again, Gretzky was the first $1-million man in hockey.
It's about who was the greatest ever, and Jordan's popularity overall in sports is unmatched. I would wage the name 'Michael Jordan' is know more than ANY name in the last century.

Gretzky rules.
His Airness rules. :nod:

[lmanchur.]

One thing I wanted to mention... Wayne Gretzky played quite a long time in the NHL... 20 years. However, a stat I haven't yet brought up is that he broke Gordie Howe's All-Time assist record in 1,086 fewer games, or, THIRTEEN SEASONS less than the previous record.... on January 7, Gretzky could have quit playing and STILL won the NHL scoring title.... or what about his 50 goals in just THIRTY-NINE games!?... simply amazing! in the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.... it just doesn't end!... no one else in pro sports... NO ONE... has a resume like that!

It's not fair? Give me a break. Gretzky also played a lot in America, with American teams and playing American teams. Don't give me that.
It's not fair. How many of those people actually WATCHED an entire game. Have YOU ever watched a full, 60-minute game, Marc?... nevermind one with Gretzky playing it!!!...

get my point?

In my mind, there haven't been as many *GREAT* hockey legends in the past as there as been in the NBA. Thus, Jordan has more competition from players who played longer than him. Let's not forget he retired when he was on the top of his game, hitting the clutch shot to win another NBA championship.
Marc... you don't know enough about hockey to say that!... Have you even HEARD of all the hockey greats? Maurice Richard... who was eclipsed by Gordie Howe... who was, in a few ways, eclipsed by Bobby Orr... ALL of whom, were eclipsed by Wayne Gretzky.... can I mention the others?.. sure!... why not!?... Bobby Hull, Doug Harvey, Jean Beliveau, Mike Bossy, "The Big M", and Terry Sawchuk (though he was a goalie).... hockey is a game that has been played professionally since something like 1924... in 75 years, there have been MANY superstars previous to, and after, Wayne Gretzky. However, he tops them ALL. Maybe the reason why you said, "he never had enough competition" was because really, there wasn't. I mean, he had eyes in the back of his head!... he knew where EVERYONE was on the ice. He knew where his linemates were going to end up. He knew his opponent's defenisve moves to stop him before THEY even knew what they were going to do!... you don't just get all these records and points and fame because of luck!!... it's because of skill... pure, raw skill. Gretzky had more hard core skill than anyone else, so of COURSE it looked easy!... just like MJ made b-ball look easy, though both you and I know it isn't.

Also, gretzky had just ONE season where he played less than 63 games (45 games in 92-93, and 48 games in 94-95), and in his 18 seasons having played 64 or more games, he scored 90 or more points ALL BUT ONE season... and out of the 17 seasons where he scored 90 or more points, he totaled over 100 all but TWO times. You don't get those numbers because the competition sucks!... you get them because you are GOOD.... very good.

Though Gretzky didn't finish out like Jordan, winning his league's championship, Gretzky was still among the NHL leaders in points in his final year, with over 60, which is very remarkable for someone in his late 30s playing in the fastest game on earth.

BTW, what do you mean, "Jordan has more competition from players who played longer than him"!?... I don't understand. ...do you mean "Jordan had more competition from players who played previous to him"?

That's the ONE record Gretzky doesn't have IF you are talking about career all-time......
Yes, I am. Ha! :D
Well, now... a whole TWO more MJ... 61 for Gretzky

It's about who was the greatest ever, and Jordan's popularity overall in sports is unmatched. I would wage the name 'Michael Jordan' is know more than ANY name in the last century.
I would counter that wager. I would bet Bill Gates or, I guess more appropriately for this subject, Wayne Gretzky is much more heard of.

Gretzky was a true ambassador of the sport. Every game, no matter what, he'd always answer every single last question at the press conference. After his final NHL game, he asked like three times, "Are there any more questions!?... because you won't be talking to me for a long time!"

No one responded because they had so much respect... Gretzky put everything he had into the game of hockey and the NHL and never, ever, thought that HE was bigger than the GAME.

Gretzky was the ONLY player in the entire league to sell out every single NHL arena in his final year in the league. No one else. Not even Jaromir Jagr could attract as many fans in places like Tampa Bay or Long Island or Montreal than Wayne Gretzky. NO ONE.

...okay, you said, this "is about who was the greatest ever, and Jordan's popularity overall in sports is unmatched." So.. if we take away the popularity and $$ issue... we're left with pure athletisim which is what this is suspose to be about... (my first post read, "who's the greatest player of Pro Sports ALL-Time," not "who's the biggest sports figure of Pro Sports ALL-Time,"... actually... I think I would wager Woods as being more recognized... but that's besides the point, because I still think Getzky would be more recognized than anyone else)


His Airness rules.
"His Ariness"!?... bah!... NO ONE in pro sports has a name such as GRAND as "The Great One," except the only true Great One, Wayne Gretzky.

The Great One.

[Marc]

One thing I wanted to mention... Wayne Gretzky played quite a long time in the NHL... 20 years. However, a stat I haven't yet brought up is that he broke Gordie Howe's All-Time assist record in 1,086 fewer games, or, THIRTEEN SEASONS less than the previous record.... on January 7, Gretzky could have quit playing and STILL won the NHL scoring title.... or what about his 50 goals in just THIRTY-NINE games!?... simply amazing! in the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.... it just doesn't end!... no one else in pro sports... NO ONE... has a resume like that!
The difference and the primary reason Gretzky has all of those records is because he played longer in the league. You're comparing him breaking records in less time than other hockey greats, but we're comparing him to Jordan, not other hockey greats. And 39 goals in 50 games? That's not as impressive as a 63-point game, IMO, that Jordan had in his illustrious career. Gretzky may have more records, but that's because, as I said above, he played longer. Jordan retired in his early thirties, then came back and showed true brilliance in coming back and winning another championship, but still to retire relatively early.

Another thing, Jordan created, built, and perfected a dynasty in Chicago, rare in sports. He made the players around him better, he elevated an entire sports franchise, and is one of the most known names worldwide ever. Ever. For example, go ask a little Chinese boy who Michael Jordan is and I can guarantee you more little Chinese boys will know Jordan's name than Wayne Gretzky.

Gretzky, on the other hand, was a "journeymen", playing for numerous teams.

How did he make the players around him better? Well, let's evaluate the performances of his former teammates who are still playing, but on different teams. Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Luc Longely, these players are all now mediocre, at best, and when they played with Michael, they played much, much better.

It's not fair. How many of those people actually WATCHED an entire game. Have YOU ever watched a full, 60-minute game, Marc?... nevermind one with Gretzky playing it!!!...
Lee, I've been to hockey games. :uhoh: You're assuming these things you don't know. The "industry-wide panel of 48 knowledgeable journalists and observers" surely must have a decent amount of hockey enthusiasts, otherwise, it wouldn't be fair, and I'm sure someone would complain if it wasn't.

It's about who was the greatest ever, and Jordan's popularity overall in sports is unmatched. I would wage the name 'Michael Jordan' is know more than ANY name in the last century.
There is absolutely no way Wayne Gretzky is known as much to the general public as Michael Jordan. :redhot:

No one responded because they had so much respect... Gretzky put everything he had into the game of hockey and the NHL and never, ever, thought that HE was bigger than the GAME.
Was Michael Jordan not? Michael Jordan was and continues to be an idol to young players on the playgrounds around the world. He has his own shoes, clothes product, and more. He is a hero to all basketball fans alike.

Gretzky was the ONLY player in the entire league to sell out every single NHL arena in his final year in the league. No one else. Not even Jaromir Jagr could attract as many fans in places like Tampa Bay or Long Island or Montreal than Wayne Gretzky. NO ONE.
Michael Jordan did equally the same in the United Center. In fact, there is still a good attendence there dating back from all of the fans who pre-ordered season tickets from his playing days. He had a lasting effect on Chicago.

[Marc]

I just found this:

A CNN/USA Today poll conducted December 20-21, 1999 gives Jordan the nod as the Athlete of the Century. Nearly one in four Americans, 23%, named Jordan when asked "What man or woman living anytime this century do you think was the greatest athlete of the century, in terms of their athletic performance?" Muhammad Ali rated a distant second, mentioned by 9%, followed by Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe with 4% each, and Jesse Owens, with 3%. A number of athletes also received mentions from at least 1% of those polled, including Wayne Gretzky, Babe Didrikson Zaharias, Joe Montana, Carl Lewis, Joe Louis and Joe DiMaggio.

As you can see, by most, Gretzky is barely even considered top five athletes of all time. There is no question that he was the greatest hockey player ever, but Muhammad Ali has got to be before him. That's another debate.

To conclude, Michael Jordan was possibly the greatest clutch player ever ... his worldwide appeal as a celebrity changed the face of athlete product endorsement forever and made 14-point a game scorers multi-cajillionaires.

I would like to know more of your opinions, and back yourself up!

[Spike]

Originally posted by SC-Lee:

...one other thing I forgot to add in my vote for Gretzky...


...he was SOLID right from his first NHL season to his LAST NHL season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but MJ was in the NBA for quite some time before MJ actually began to take on a "superstar" status... Gretzky was hyped ever since he was 12 years old!

No, Jordan was pretty solid from the start of his career, if not dominate. He averaged 28.2 points per game his rookie year, 1984 to 1985. The next year he only played 18 games because he broke his foot but as was mentioned by Marc, came back and scored 63 points in a playoff game at the Boston Garden against the future 1985 to 1986 World Champion Boston Celtics, who some have deemed one of the greatest teams ever.

If he wasn't given superstar status at the time, it was because he was unfairly noted as being too selfish but if you look at the team around him which wasn't very good, you'd understand why he took as many shots as he did.

[lmanchur.]

Marc... you take that poll and do it in Canada and see what the response is. MJ would be fifth or worse.

...saying Gretzky is ONE of the top two athletes of the century is fine... but saying that he doesn't even cut the top four or five is just downright DISRESPECTFUL.

The difference and the primary reason Gretzky has all of those records is because he played longer in the league. You're comparing him breaking records in less time than other hockey greats, but we're comparing him to Jordan, not other hockey greats. And 39 goals in 50 games? That's not as impressive as a 63-point game, IMO, that Jordan had in his illustrious career. Gretzky may have more records, but that's because, as I said above, he played longer. Jordan retired in his early thirties, then came back and showed true brilliance in coming back and winning another championship, but still to retire relatively early.
Marc... 50 goals!?... that used to be seen as IMPOSSIBLE!!!!... I mean, when Maurice Richard first got 50 goals, he did it in an "amazing" 50 games.[/b]
Okay... so 39 goals in 50 games doesn't cut it for you? How about SEVEN ASSISTS in ONE GAME!... done TWICE. (if you're wondering, that's a record, too). How about FOUR goals in ONE PERIOD!?... yep -- a record also.

Another thing, Jordan created, built, and perfected a dynasty in Chicago, rare in sports. He made the players around him better, he elevated an entire sports franchise, and is one of the most known names worldwide ever. Ever. For example, go ask a little Chinese boy who Michael Jordan is and I can guarantee you more little Chinese boys will know Jordan's name than Wayne Gretzky.... Gretzky, on the other hand, was a "journeymen", playing for numerous teams.
If you're talking about Jordan "building a dynasty," what happened to that year in between where he just decided to hang up the laces for a year!?... Gretzky played twenty STRAIGHT years in the most physically demanding and face-paced sport on the planet, and, as I said in my last post, his performance slipped all but one or two seasons when he didn't play as much due to injury.

I don't believe in the word "dyntasy" unless it's referring to teams great throughout their entire existence, such as the Yankees, Canadiens, and Celtics. A more appropraite term for the Bulls under Jordan's leadership would be "team of the decade." The Oilers were ALSO a "team of the decade." They started out in the early 80s as a young group of players, got better as they went along, and won four Cups under Gretzky. Gretzky, like MJ, also made the players around him better. There is no way the Oilers would have won 4 cups in the 80s without Gretzky, unless it was ABSLOUTE magic. Gretzky powered the Oilers to victory after victory. Guys like Jari Kurri, Paul Coffey, and Mark Messier would not be on their way to the hall of fame if it wasn't for the passing of Gretzky. It's that simple.

No one responded because they had so much respect... Gretzky put everything he had into the game of hockey and the NHL and never, ever, thought that HE was bigger than the GAME.

Was Michael Jordan not? Michael Jordan was and continues to be an idol to young players on the playgrounds around the world. He has his own shoes, clothes product, and more. He is a hero to all basketball fans alike.
No, I'm not saying MJ didn't, but Gretzky did it also. Gretzky doesn't have the Nike deal, but he was and continues to be an idol to young players around the sport, but in N. America and internationally... he is a hero to all hockey fans alike.

Michael Jordan did equally the same in the United Center. In fact, there is still a good attendence there dating back from all of the fans who pre-ordered season tickets from his playing days. He had a lasting effect on Chicago.
I'm not saying his home stadium. I'm talking the entire league.

[budman2]

first of all, lee don't appoligise for being passionate about the sport you love,it's what makes us canadians stand out and DOMINATE SPORTS. hockey is the greatest sport on earth .
secondly, over and above all that lee has said to prove without a doubt ,that wayne is undoubtedly , the winner of the athlete of the 20th centry award.
It is my opinion that all amaricans are bias against all other countries when it comes to sports. it is not out of the question that si or espn would ignore wayne as the athlete of the century, especially when they but that fat, alcoholic babe ruth on the list and didn't mention wayne at all.who the hll was compiling this list anyway? AMARICANS.
as far as micheal jordan goes , he is undoubtedly a very fine athlete, (that is concidering he has finally chosen the spot he thinks he should play , basketball or baseball.you said he has helped basketball more then any one player, i highly doubt that.
what about wilt chamberlain or larry bird, were they not dominant ?. i do believe that wilt still holds many records and jordans records are breakable, there are several records that wayne has set that will never be broken , never.
Its time that you amaricans stop tooting your horn and realize that canadians ( who are out numbered 20 to 1 by amaricans ) still manage to not only compete in major sports , but win, and win and win and win.
wayne has been an ambasador to sports in every step of his glorious career.
He still is with his team going to the olimpics. he has shown class and sportsman ship in ever step.
YOU MAY VOTE FOR MICHEAL BUT YOUR HEART KNOWS ITS WAYNE !

[Marc]

It is my opinion that all amaricans are bias against all other countries when it comes to sports. it is not out of the question that si or espn would ignore wayne as the athlete of the century, especially when they but that fat, alcoholic babe ruth on the list and didn't mention wayne at all.who the hll was compiling this list anyway? AMARICANS.
Perhaps it's Canadians who are bias toward picking one of their own and not Americans? It was you all who started the "Americans picking the winner" argument, not I.

as far as micheal jordan goes , he is undoubtedly a very fine athlete, (that is concidering he has finally chosen the spot he thinks he should play , basketball or baseball.you said he has helped basketball more then any one player, i highly doubt that. what about wilt chamberlain or larry bird, were they not dominant ?. i do believe that wilt still holds many records and jordans records are breakable, there are several records that wayne has set that will never be broken , never.
How are Jordan's records breakable and Gretzky's not? I don't buy that.

Its time that you amaricans stop tooting your horn and realize that canadians ( who are out numbered 20 to 1 by amaricans ) still manage to not only compete in major sports , but win, and win and win and win.
Why be so offensive? Americans have no problems with Canadians, it's the athlete that counts, not where he or she is from.

[lmanchur.]

How are Jordan's records breakable and Gretzky's not? I don't buy that.
Ummmmmm..... well..... Jordan, as far as you've told me, has ONE NBA record. Gretzky has SIXTY-ONE. SIXTY ONE. It is A LOT more likely that players will break all of Jordan's records, and not ALL of Gretzky's. It's simple odds.

Perhaps it's Canadians who are bias toward picking one of their own and not Americans? It was you all who started the "Americans picking the winner" argument, not I.
No... maybe...... but no. Marc... clear your whole entire mind of "popularity," which has been brought up a lot in this topic. What are you left with?... Allow me to answer my own question. You're left with the original question, "Who is the greatest athlete of all-time." ...not "Who is the greatest sports figure of all-time." Probably, globally, I would say Tiger Woods is the most recognized sports figure, even though he's only 25, because golf is played worldwide. The only pro league that has its own extension outside of North America is the NFL. The Tiger Woods and the PGA Tour is played in Europe, Asia, Africa, and North America. In North America? Probably Michael Jordan, but only because there are over 200 million people in the United States and only 30 or 40 million people in Canada.

Anyways... this thread is NOT a popularity contest. It's a debate as to who is the best athlete of all-time.

There is no possible way you can compare Jordan's accomplishments in basketball to Gretzky's accomplishments in hockey..... let me re-phrase that, because you can DEFINITELY compare them... it's just that Gretzky was MUCH more dominant in hockey than Jordan was in basketball.

"I've heard people say Wayne Gretzky was the Michael Jordan of hockey. Horsepuck. Jordan was the Gretzky of basketball."
--Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated

[iFroggy]

omg... now I know its wrong.

Reilly is alright, but he says things that can be very arguable. He sometimes might not even agree with what he says. He says it so that he makes his money and attracts readers.

I am shocked you actually posted that Lee. :eek:

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by iFroggy
I am shocked you actually posted that Lee. :eek: .....it was in my sig the past few days... I didn't think that it was getting enough attention, so I made it loud and clear for everyone! :)

[Wedge231]

I noticed it in your sig though :)

[budman2]

I am sorry the issue of amarican arrogance offends you! maby you do not fall into this catagory. but, when faced with the debate that micheal jordan is compared with wayne gretzky , as a better all around athlete, or more important to his sport then wayne gretzky, it's just not possible. the facts are to heavy in favour of gretzky and to not recognize that is pure bias.or horse puckey as lee put it.
Names mentioned in previous threads are insults ,like mohomid ali, the man turned his back on his country in there time of need, (draft) in canada we call that treason.
jim brown ? what ? if anyone in the nfl deserves mention it would be jerry rice.
I suppose this argument could go on forever, after the facts are presented , gretzky wins .

[Nate]

Man! You forget to check out the boards for a couple of days, and look how this thread took off! :eek:

I wish I could "add" to the discussion, but since I do not like hockey, I can't really compare the two greats because I never watched Gretzky play. Jordan was always spectacular however.

[Wedge231]

I would add to the thread but I think Lee and Marc covered pretty much everything for both sides.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by Wedge231
I would add to the thread but I think Lee and Marc covered pretty much everything for both sides. Not really.... a "decision" hasn't really been reached.... and it isn't likely to happen because probably none of us will change our opinions, even, though I'm right ( ;) ).

...budman really summed it up properly, though, so
EVERYONE -- add your opinions!!!...

[Marc]

Originally posted by SC-Lee
Not really.... a "decision" hasn't really been reached.... and it isn't likely to happen because probably none of us will change our opinions, even, though I'm right ( ;) ).

...budman really summed it up properly, though, so
EVERYONE -- add your opinions!!!...
Well, the reason I haven't commented more is because I think I've added all I can. As soon as I see something more I can comment on, I will.

[lmanchur.]

...if that's ALL you can comment on, you haven't made a very good case for MJ being the athelete of all-time...

below is my best summary of my case of the whole thing:

Originally posted by SC-Lee
How are Jordan's records breakable and Gretzky's not? I don't buy that.
Ummmmmm..... well..... Jordan, as far as you've told me, has ONE NBA record. Gretzky has SIXTY-ONE. SIXTY ONE. It is A LOT more likely that players will break all of Jordan's records, and not ALL of Gretzky's. It's simple odds.

Marc... clear your whole entire mind of "popularity," which has been brought up a lot in this topic. What are you left with?... Allow me to answer my own question. You're left with the original question, "Who is the greatest athlete of all-time." ...not "Who is the greatest sports figure of all-time." Probably, globally, I would say Tiger Woods is the most recognized sports figure, even though he's only 25, because golf is played worldwide. The only pro league that has its own extension outside of North America is the NFL. The Tiger Woods and the PGA Tour is played in Europe, Asia, Africa, and North America. In North America? Probably Michael Jordan, but only because there are over 200 million people in the United States and only 30 or 40 million people in Canada.

Anyways... this thread is NOT a popularity contest. It's a debate as to who is the best athlete of all-time.

There is no possible way you can compare Jordan's accomplishments in basketball to Gretzky's accomplishments in hockey..... let me re-phrase that, because you can DEFINITELY compare them... it's just that Gretzky was MUCH more dominant in hockey than Jordan was in basketball.

[Marc]

I can tell you this:

1. Gretzky may have more individual records, but Michael Jordan was the better athlete, and his team was better.

2. Michael Jordan is the most well-known name in sports history for a reason: he is also the best.

3. Michael Jordan was so good that he was continues to be a trend-setter in basketball. His shaved head, tongue hanging out, and Air Jordan's are imitated by kids around the country.

[lmanchur.]

3. Michael Jordan was so good that he was continues to be a trend-setter in basketball. His shaved head, tongue hanging out, and Air Jordan's are imitated by kids around the country.
MARC!!!! -- this is NOT a popularity contest!!!

1. Gretzky may have more individual records, but Michael Jordan was the better athlete, and his team was better.

2. Michal Jordan is the most well-known name in sports history for a reason: he is also the best.
Again, this is not a popularity contest (## 2)
...he's not better known because he's the best. He's better known 'cuz he had/has a multi-million dollar deal with Nike which is aired on American TV where there are 200 million people watching. Gretzky probably had a few deals, but all those ads were aired in Canada, with 30 million people... do the math... Jordan's ads would have reached more people. ANYWAYS... this isn't a popularity contest.

...and what do you mean, "his teams were better"???... the Edmonton Oilers of the 80s ENTIRELY were centered around Gretzky, and because of him, they were the most explosive offensive team in NHL history.. in NHL HISTORY.... Gretzky broke records in less time than any other hockey player and has more of them than any other professional athelete, despite playing a sport where physical strength is a MUST... unless you were Gretzky, who found a way to avoid that all the time and stayed healthy for all but two or three of his TWENTY NHL seasons.

[budman2]

lee, I can tell by the way that marks arguments are going around in circles , that he is not going to acknowedge your points . or even meet you half way.this is as i see it " disrespecting one of our great sport idols".i do not feel the need to further insult wayne by this debate, it is clear to anyone who folowed this thread , that MR. WAYNE GRETZKY is the all out , and clear leader in this issue of great athletes.
Canada knows it, mark knows it, and you know it, as do I .It's like talking to a wall trying to reason fact over fiction,or ignoring fact over fiction.
You know what ? when waynes team that enters the olympics , kicks the amarican teams butt, we can open this thread again, this time with ......
nah, na, na na nah!!!!!:D

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by budman2
lee, I can tell by the way that marks arguments are going around in circles , that he is not going to acknowedge your points . or even meet you half way.this is as i see it " disrespecting one of our great sport idols".i do not feel the need to further insult wayne by this debate, it is clear to anyone who folowed this thread , that MR. WAYNE GRETZKY is the all out , and clear leader in this issue of great athletes.
Canada knows it, mark knows it, and you know it, as do I .It's like talking to a wall trying to reason fact over fiction,or ignoring fact over fiction.
You know what ? when waynes team that enters the olympics , kicks the amarican teams butt, we can open this thread again, this time with ......
nah, na, na na nah!!!!!:D BTW... that's Marc with a "c", budman2!!!

[budman2]

yeah sorry marc! i realized it after it posted.:)

[lmanchur.]

More "evidence" that Gretzky was a better athlete than Jordan:

1) If Jordan makes his rumored "comeback," then it looks like another quarter of Marc's argument it out the window, because then he wouldn't have played for "just one team."

2) Gretzky is the ONLY athelete in team sports besides baseball's Jackie Robinson to have their number retired league-wide.... no one in hockey will ever again wear #99... anyone, unless they were playing in Chicago, could tell the uniform-designers to make them a jersey with #23 on it.

3) The mandatory three-year waiting period after retirement to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame was by-passed for Wayne Gretzky. As it stands right now (according to the basketball's Hall of Fame web site), Michael Jordan is STILL not in the Hall of Fame.


No comparison -- The Great One turly is the Greatest.

[iFroggy]

Just thought I'd chime in and say that I think if someone played for one team or ten teams, it has no affect on their greatness.

[Marc]

Jordan meant more to his sport than Gretzky did to his. Without Gretzky playing, hockey is doing fine. Yet, in the NBA, the league has struggled greatly without their superstar icon/legend/God. There's no question there.

[lmanchur.]

First of all, Patrick.... I know that!... but Marc used that as an "excuse" that Jordan was better than Gretzky.... now for Marc's post.....

Jordan meant more to his sport than Gretzky did to his. Without Gretzky playing, hockey is doing fine. Yet, in the NBA, the league has struggled greatly without their superstar icon/legend/God. There's no question there.
WHAT!?.. Hockey doing fine without Gretzky!!!????!?!?? No... not at all... Well, in Canada, yeah.. Hockey is as great as EVER... but it always has been and no different than when Gretzky WAS playing.

In the US, however.. MUCH, much different.. No one player or team has sold out all 30 NHL arenas since Gretzky in 1999... To say that Gretzky wasn't important to the NHL... is completely, utterly, WRONG. ...it's like saying Jordan wasn't important AT ALL to basketball... or Woods isn't important AT ALL to golf... If Gretzky wsn't important to hockey, then they would NOT have retired #99 throughout the entire league or let him into the Hall of Fame three years early!!!

Gretzky sold hockey in the southern US in 1989 when he was traded down there... and still sold hockey all over US when he was in his last year... he STILL does it as partial owner of the Phoenix Coyotes (the game after his first day as owner of the Coyotes, the America West Arena sold out).

[iFroggy]

Originally posted by SC-Lee
First of all, Patrick.... [b]I know that!... but Marc used that as an "excuse" that Jordan was better than Gretzky


For the second time in this thread... calm down Lee!

[Marc]

Lee, you're telling me the NHL is in worse condition than the NBA? I beg your pardon...

[NickHammy]

I think it is very hard to compare athletes who play different sports. They are both the best of the best in the sport they played.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by M. James
Lee, you're telling me the NHL is in worse condition than the NBA? I beg your pardon... ...well, overall attendance is higher than in the NBA... but the TV ratings are higher for the NBA than the NHL... so it's a trade-off.

[budman2]

lee! i think if you had wayne and micheal both agree that wayne was more important to his sport than micheal was to his , marc would stil argue the point, it's a totaly unwinnable argument , and one that actually should not keep on, so , that being said, o.k marc micheal was better, feel better? ( but lee , we and all the other sports fans know the difference.;),),)

[lmanchur.]

lee! i think if you had wayne and micheal both agree that wayne was more important to his sport than micheal was to his , marc would stil argue the point, it's a totaly unwinnable argument , and one that actually should not keep on, so , that being said, o.k marc micheal was better, feel better? ( but lee , we and all the other sports fans know the difference.;),),) [/QUOTE]
budman2, the difference is, though, and we both know it, that Gretzky would never agree that he was the better all-around athlete. -- true sign of a sportsman.

More signs of a great guy? He left St. Louis for less money in New York, so that he could play with his ol' pal Mark Messier.

Gretzky always signed every autograph after every game... answered nearly every question after every game in the press room...

He never liked to talk about his stats or his records (does anyone else in Pro sports have more than 60 records??... that would be interesting if anyone could find that out for me)... he was undoubtedly the greatest athlete ever... the greatest gentleman ever...

[iFroggy]

Originally posted by SC-Lee
budman2, the difference is, though, and we both know it, that Gretzky would never agree that he was the better all-around athlete. -- true sign of a sportsman.

More signs of a great guy? He left St. Louis for less money in New York, so that he could play with his ol' pal Mark Messier.

Gretzky always signed every autograph after every game... answered nearly every question after every game in the press room...

He never liked to talk about his stats or his records (does anyone else in Pro sports have more than 60 records??... that would be interesting if anyone could find that out for me)... he was undoubtedly the greatest athlete ever... the greatest gentleman ever... [/B]

Lee,

First of all, most athletes would not agree they are the best.

Next, if he was offered $5 to play in NY, he wouldn't have taken it. He could a hefty chunk of change. He didn't go there JUST to play with Messier.

Furthermore, there is no way he signed EVERY autograph, he is a good guy and all, but you do not know he signed every autograph, and he couldn't have, it is simply not possible. He would never leave the stadium, he would be there 24/7. So to say he sigs every autograph, fixed World Hunger, and took kids on the street... or whatever else you want to say is crazy, because no one can sign every autograph.

Nearly every question, thats possible. However, your not in the press room after each game he played. You get the he said she said version from sports writers that were there.

Some of those 60 records must be trivial ones, because I can't think of 60 things in hockey worthy of a record. But, he should have every record, he's the greatest hockey player ever. I know that Dan Marino has many NFL Records, but I believe its only in the 30s.

[Marc]

Exactly. Lee, if you're going to argue your point by saying Gretzky was the greatest sportsman of all-time because he signed so many autographs and never admitted he was the greatest, then I can use my arguments that Jordan was the most popular athlete of all-time and he redefined the definition of an athlete. He is the major reason athletes sign endorsements and such today, he was the first to do so with Nike, at least successfully and to a great extint.

Likewise, Jordan won six championships with the one single team he built and perfected around him. Take a look at the team today without him, quite possibly the worst team in the league. Jordan meant everything to one of the greatest dynasties in basketball and sports history.

[NickHammy]

The main reason the Bulls are that bad right now is b/c when Jordan left, so did everyone else on that team.

[iFroggy]

The reason the Bulls stink:

Reindorf + Krause = Two idiots!

I mean, I just pulled out my Michael Jordan book. It says that before the 97-98 season. Here is a quote from the book:


Phil told Jerry, "Stop feeling as though you've made all the right decisions. I'm just as much a reason for this team being successful as you are." That rubbed Krause the wrong way. He might have been from a different era, but I think Krause understood the depth of Phil's impact on the team. He knew why the players liked Phil and he knew why we busted our butts for Phil. But Krause wanted to be the reason we played hard. He wanted to be the guy the players respected and talked to. When Phil signed his last contract, Krause told him "I don't care if you go 82-0. You're not coming back next season." Thats why Phil knew it was over from the beginning of the season.


I mean... what a fool! If they had a brain between them they would have given Jackson, Jordan and Scottie as much as they wanted and they could have had two more World Championships, EASY. At least thats how I feel.

Jordan also says in his book:


I think our respect for Phil and our general lack of respect for Krause is what pulled the Bulls apart. Krause also lied about little things my children would lie about. And for what purpose? To show who's boss? We had one of the most successful teams in the history of team sports and this guy is running around playing games with his troops? I never understood all that and never will.


What an idiot!

[lmanchur.]

OK... so I went out on the limb saying he signed every auto after every game... but he signed autos after every game... maybe even about answering every question after every game BUT he did answer questions after EVERY game.

The Bulls don't suck right now because Michael left... they suck right now because everyone ELSE left as well, and all at the same time. They could very well have been a winning team without MJ. The Oilers were built around Gretzky, just like the Bulls were built around MJ. No question on either side. The year after Gretzky left, the Oilers didn't move to last place. Rather, they moved from Stanley Cup Champions with (appropriately) 99 points in the season before (if you didn't get why that was "appropriate"... all I can say is "gggrrrrrrrrrrr" :mad: ), to 84 points the year after, and an early round exit from the playoffs after winning four Stanley Cups in the five seasons previous.

Patrick... I can't think of 30 records a single NFL player can have, but there are, just like there are SIXTY records an NHL player can have. Visit CNNSI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/news/1999/04/15/records/). If you take out the
"cheesy" All-Star records, you're left with 55 records (but you have to take away Elway's all-star records, if he has any)... still more than any other athlete...

[budman2]

basketball sucks!!!!jordan should stay retired!!!! and this thread is getting really old!!!canadains will love gretzky!! amaricains will love jordan!! so what? i love hockey and don't wear underwear!! this is the stanly cup playoffs and that is where are energy should be focased right now! THIS IS THE N.H.L. BOARD!
athletes who retire should stay retired, like the class act "gretzky" . lemeaux will be back retired real soon ! because he's a wimp and it's only a matter of time before his spoiled a$$ is whining about the rough play , or he doesn't get his way. i don't know what the hlls wrong with gonchar or simon , lemeauxs teath should be part of there stick or glove by now!he used to be that good but not anymore , smoke the s.o.b.

[iFroggy]

Lee,

He did not answer questions after EVERY game of EVERY season and preseason and playoffs in his ENTIRE career. Your doing it again Lee. lol He is not Mother Theresa.

The main reason the Bulls stunk the very next year was because of Reinsdorf and Krause and the year after that, by then yes Jordan would have definitely retired, well maybe not, but I think he was the best when he would have retired and he'd still be the best now if he were still playing. But, he's been away too long to come back I guess, wouldn't make sense.

And Lee... DAN MARINO... Elway is a MORON. :) I didn't mean that Gretsky's records were trivial and don't quote me (IE: can't think of any) again! :)

Budman... This is not the NHL board man. :) This is the board in which we discuss other sports and things that affect more then one sport. :)

[budman2]

i'm not too sure where the thread is now , but it started on the nhl board, because that is the only board i go to.

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by budman2
i'm not too sure where the thread is now , but it started on the nhl board, because that is the only board i go to. No... I sent you a private message with the link to this board, remember! :)

Also, Patrick... sorry.... I got names of quarterbacks mixed up.... Doesn't matter.. they don't belond in this topic... only GretZky does (you must be doing that on purupose by now (gretSky... get it right, guy! :D )

[iFroggy]

Nice work Lee... basically the whole content of your post was the spelling of Gretzky's name. Big freakin deal man. :) The Elway thing was mute and at the end of my thread. :)

[budman2]

we got gretzky we got 99
we got gretzky we got 99
new york has bossy
montreal lefleur
l.a. the dion liiiiine
but we got gretzky we got 99

thats a song about gretzky in case you were wondering, pretty catchey too, was very popular in the 80's when gretzky was at the top of his oiler career. by the way what is the song that was written for jordan?:)

[lmanchur.]

never heard of it budman2.... must've been sung in the arenas (which I was never in).... anywho.... Gretzky still rules.

[Marc]

Stop lying to yourselfs. :D

[Nate]

I think this has gotten out of hand. Gretzky and Jordan were BOTH great players. I can't see how you can pick the "best" between them because they play totally different games. How 'bout we say this:
Gretzky is the Jordan of hockey...
Jordan is the Gretzky of basketball...

I know that doesn't really work, but this is ridiculous... just my opinion...

[lmanchur.]

Originally posted by Nate Dogg
I can't see how you can pick the "best" between them because they play totally different games. How 'bout we say this:
Gretzky is the Jordan of hockey...
Jordan is the Gretzky of basketball...I know we'll never agree -- BUT I just thought that I'd try to make my point clear to them that Gretzky is the greatest athlete of all-time, and they thought that they'd try to get their point clear to me that Jordan was (even though he isn't ;) :D ) the greatest athlete of all-time.

I agree on that part.

HOWEVER, we absoultely cannot say that "Gretzky is the Jordan of hockey," because Gretzky came 5 years before Jordan, and his greatness in sports was alreadys solidified before Jordan's.

[iFroggy]

Jeez... Lee.

Do me a favor people... don't even reply to this thread any more. Lee has what I'd call "closed ear syndrome." So, you probably won't see me on this thread again. :D

I agree with you Nate.

[Nate]

Thanks, Patrick. Good to see someone sees the light ;)

[budman2]

maby marc has closed ear syndrom! why do you say it's lee? unless your bowing to the " were amarican so we have to be right syndrom".either lets say there both right or lee is right theres no other " lets say"

[Marc]

This was a really good thread for a long time, but now it serves no point. We've reached a standstill and are left with only trash talking. If anyone wants to add their opinion, start a new thread. Closed.