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Old 10-06-2008, 03:09 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
When do I get offended by your counter arguments?

I may get offended when I personally attacked as being "naive" but I don't get offended when people talk down about the Dems.
Problem is that a lot of what you're saying shows a bit of naivety. I know you hate the word but things I've said have been seen by me for over a decently long lifetime. It's not based just on opinion but of the facts of tons of ****ed up things that were easily in a government's power to control. Instead, the abuses & sleeping with the enemy is what we got in return.

So at a certain time in a conversation when you stick to your guns, which of course is your right, the only option left is to comment on an apparent lack of experience or naivety. It's not meant as a bludgeoning debate tool.


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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here...

First of all, am I not calm? Again, maybe we are having problems translating the "tone" of my posts, but I assure you, I am very calm.
There was a time that Doug would, it seemed by his posts, be about ready to 'catch fire & burst into flames'. There were some tough times here & there but he's now like a train kept a'rollin' where he just keeps focused & counters point after point, unruffled for the most part. I'm sure he's not a fan of mine per se, let's just say I haven't been invited over for Sunday Brunch, but we get the job done to a decent conclusion usually.

You, on the other hand, you're like a manic depressant. One second you're laughing/joking & the next you're damning us all to Hell on a roller coaster cuz we're "trying to destroy your thought processes".

If that's calm, stay away from talking to cops. If you don't, I see a tazering in your future...


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Perhaps I don't see EVERYTHING the Dems do as "evil." Perhaps I feel that many of the actions by the Dems are done with good intent.

Still, I can see the problems with our party system. But does that mean I HAVE to disagree with EVERYTHING the Dems do?
Of course not. But then you have to calm down all your party smack in constant defense of them being your choice cuz realistically, they're not looking too good in the light of day on a lot of things.

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Perhaps you are overly critical.
Or just a realist enough to realize that this country is in horrific shape on major issues. No party nor man can slow this Hellbound Train. It took them a ton of years to **** it up this bad & there's no miracle cure on the horizon.

Meanwhile we're bleeding a slow death. Remember what I said about previous 'Empires' & their arrogance in thinking they were invincible...


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Please tell me, how voting otherwise will accomplish anything that I think is important. I'm really willing to listen and learn.
Just do what you feel is best. Like I said, there's no ShamWow big enough to clean up this mess...
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:29 PM   #227
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Yeah, what Tarkus said.



Seriously though, that's my response.

I do have another question CK:

How come you don't believe me when I tell you they took an affiliation poll before the ship left for the board of elections?

You said earlier that Obama had earned the benefit of the doubt and he's a processed TV dinner. At the very least I've yelled and screamed at you in as real life as possible...via the internet.

I mean, when confronted with the news that they gave people rides after the vote you conceded that with this...

Would you rather them give NO option as to where they are dropped off?

But won't acknowledge the impromptu polling.

In any event, by accepting the post-vote ride you've indicted the Obama campaign.

I know...I know...you don't see how but then again...you've never been poor and won't simply take my word for it.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:14 PM   #228
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Some random thoughts in no coherent order.

I agree when you (tark and buck) call out CK for defending the Dems too often as being the 'good guys'. While he has admitted that both parties have corruption and are controlled by money, sometimes he still falls back into that 'my party is the moral one' argument.

If the problems with our government are either insurmountable, or insurmountable in a single presidential term of office, why the complaining about CK's lesser of two evils voting? I would think you would be much better off trying to get him to vote independents into congressional or local office and letting the presidential vote slide.

While often enormously entertaining, the 3 of you get way too caught up in these arguments sometimes and I think lose a little perspective.

The Saints D isn't supposed to be good; why are they doing so well stopping AP?

It seems to me that each of you does, in fact, dismiss the experience of the other at times in your arguments.

Clearly, it will be up to me to interject some reasonability (that's not a word, is it? :lol to these arguments when you all get caught up in them. Or not, as the case may be; it's fun to see you all go at it :lol:
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:11 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
Some random thoughts in no coherent order.

I agree when you (tark and buck) call out CK for defending the Dems too often as being the 'good guys'. While he has admitted that both parties have corruption and are controlled by money, sometimes he still falls back into that 'my party is the moral one' argument.

If the problems with our government are either insurmountable, or insurmountable in a single presidential term of office, why the complaining about CK's lesser of two evils voting? I would think you would be much better off trying to get him to vote independents into congressional or local office and letting the presidential vote slide.
I think the main problem here is the slide into oblivion as a sports site which ends up having more political wordplay than usual. While that's a situation all to itself, it's helped steer 2 older posters into 'ruining' the usual political settings that have been a Hallmark in this Forum. Gone are the days of the usual fighting where the basic formula has been talking point sniping between a Republican & a Democrat. DETMURDS...where are you?

Personally, I never ventured into the Political Forum before cuz of the inherent contradictions that politics usually offer. That in itself doesn't make me a great choice for a debater since I'll call out any contrary BS that the game has to offer no matter what team.

As far as the "complaining"? It's just replying to a thread or a post. The continued follow up is more about the fact that the only guys left on this site run into each other out of boredom too often for it to end. CK's unique in that he defends the party more than anyone here. It's not that I despise all politics since it's a hard job, great things can come of it, & without leadership, we'd sink as a country but of the circle mentality that goes unbroken.

& it's not just CK but more about that type of approach of anyone who attacks the other party while their own is as culpable. Sound bites, talking points, out of context distortions, etc. just fry my ass. This isn't a competition to me.

This country's going to Hell in a hand basket & all I run into is the 'Game' that is dictating my life & my family's future & I guess it makes me a little 'prickly'.

& suggesting a change of loyalty in a lesser election: CK has expounded on the Democratic ideology which has caught my attention. If it was just about a particular candidate, that'd be a horse of a different color. However, making this race a Democratic stand makes me shake my head more since it's the ultimate office. Funny thing is is that change from below is the only real pressure you can put on the parties since they all have to rely on each other. On this Forum, there's not any convo of that approach. Just about the 'Super Bowl'.

As I said before, that view makes me a bad debater when it comes to politics.


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While often enormously entertaining, the 3 of you get way too caught up in these arguments sometimes and I think lose a little perspective.
Where better to lose a little perspective than a Political Forum?

We're not saving the planet in here...


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The Saints D isn't supposed to be good; why are they doing so well stopping AP?
:lol:

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It seems to me that each of you does, in fact, dismiss the experience of the other at times in your arguments.
I'm sure that happens here & there in this Forum tho I'd be real curious of where that has happened on my end. :tsk:

Quote:
Clearly, it will be up to me to interject some reasonability (that's not a word, is it? :lol to these arguments when you all get caught up in them. Or not, as the case may be; it's fun to see you all go at it :lol:


Thanks for the effort :thumbup: but at the end of the day, I think we'll be alright. Just a case here & there of MB cabin fever.

Besides, CK will have the benefit of being battle hardened for his future dealings with political agnostics.

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Old 10-07-2008, 05:29 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
If the problems with our government are either insurmountable, or insurmountable in a single presidential term of office, why the complaining about CK's lesser of two evils voting? I would think you would be much better off trying to get him to vote independents into congressional or local office and letting the presidential vote slide.
As Tarkus eluded to in previous posts the main complaint isn’t CK’s stance per se, it’s the insincerity in the stance. Having it both ways so to speak isn’t so much a political issue being debated in this forum on my end…but a values issue based on personal experience and frankly…what boils down to a moral issue. Whether his stance is A, B or C isn’t as important as the footing it stands on.

Again, this is where…perhaps…generational and life experience differences generate a rift in here. Does this lack of sincerity… as I see it… infuse itself into the political theater? In my opinion…yes. But that’s just circumstance because in my view…everything from politics to sports to life must first stand on sincerity.

In any event, to the specifics of voting:

When you cast a ballot on any level you are supporting that party from top to bottom. That's the way private corporations work...which is what a political party is. Whether I buy 34 lawn mowers from Sears or a pack of batteries...I've endorsed them as an entity. Money is power in this system...plain and simple.

But once again I must say that recognizing wrong (as CK freely does in the Democratic Party) and endorsing it is the real tragedy here.

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Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
It seems to me that each of you does, in fact, dismiss the experience of the other at times in your arguments.
Ah, but here again we come to the sincerity angle. I will always dismiss the insincere POV regardless of how well it is presented. Having it both ways isn’t a stance nor are talking points and a slick sales approach to the issues at hand.

As Tarkus noted, this isn’t a competition. Hell, it can’t be. A competition would require competing values and different takes on issues.

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Old 10-07-2008, 06:34 PM   #231
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Butch, I get the feeling the Bolivian Army is right outside...

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Old 10-07-2008, 06:40 PM   #232
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:lol:

I'm used to that feeling so not only do I cope well with it...I embrace it.

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Old 10-08-2008, 11:26 AM   #233
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Since this conversation isn't going anywhere, I turn back to the topic of this thread.

Do you guys agree that McCain needs to win BOTH Ohio and Florida to even have a chance at winning?

The way I see it, if Obama take either state, he wins easily. Even if he loses Ohio and Florida, he still has over a 50% chance of winning.

Basically, McCain is in big trouble - considering he NEEDS two states which he is trailing in by a significant margin..
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:48 PM   #234
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I'm just going to keep asking my questions until I get a response...

CK...

1. When I mentioned that the homeless here in Youngstown were dropped off at locations of their choice (not back at the shelter) after they voted you responded with...

Would you rather them give NO option as to where they are dropped off?

In my opinion this question affirms your acceptance of my statement in which I spoke of folks getting dropped off at alternate locations. Does it? And if so, does this fact constitute "selling one's vote"...which is illegal? If it doesn't go that far in your eyes, do you concede that a ride is something of great value in the lives of these people and therefore could be construed as a bribe to vote...regardless of who they vote for?

2. When I mentioned that impromptu polling asking for party affiliation went down inside the homeless shelters before the people were taken to the board of elections you made this statement in reference to my link...

8 years ago...

The Obama campaign took information and used it to their advantage... Sounds like politics to me.


Are you conceding that polling went down inside these shelters 8 years ago before those homeless folks were taken to the board of elections?

Furthermore, if you are conceding that, why would 2008 be any different in your eyes when I gave you my firsthand example?

Next, don't you believe that any polling done within the confines of a homeless shelter is immoral?

And lastly, if you indeed confirm (as I believe you have) that you believe polling went down in these shelters 8 years ago before the homeless were taken to the polls isn't that still an immoral act for that election year even if it wasn't done this year?
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:44 PM   #235
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There's been some discussion about whether John McCain's announcement last week that he was pulling out of Michigan was some kind of stunt. Well, Rasmussen has the first polling out of the state since that announcement, and it gives Barack Obama a 16 point lead. This is a state that, as recently as a month ago, looked like it might be the most important swing state in the nation.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/...ont-bluff.html

The last line is pretty telling, as Michigan was one McCain really seemed to need when state's like Virginia and Florida became possible for Obama.

McCain seems to ramping up the Ayers and other associates of Obama stuff, and it hasn't been working thus far. I think all campaigns are going to do that waste of time dirt stuff, but I think most of the polls are reflecting that McCain is doing it more out of desperation. Whereas Obama can cloud his politics in at least a position of strength.
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Old 10-10-2008, 01:36 AM   #236
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I agree with Doug. Right now, Obama can act like a leader and stay above the fray. Its up to others to find something that "sticks" to him.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:56 AM   #237
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do you concede that a ride is something of great value in the lives of these people and therefore could be construed as a bribe to vote...regardless of who they vote for?
Yes, it could be construed as such, but only by someone who views every action by Democrats and Republicans as evil.

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Are you conceding that polling went down inside these shelters 8 years ago before those homeless folks were taken to the board of elections?
Yes, polling took place by a nonpartisan group not affiliated with the Democrats or Republicans.

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Furthermore, if you are conceding that, why would 2008 be any different in your eyes when I gave you my firsthand example?
I don't know if that group did polling again this year, but it doesn't matter. The Democrats don't need to do the polling, it is common sense.

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Next, don't you believe that any polling done within the confines of a homeless shelter is immoral?
Depends. Who did the polling? What were their reasons?

In this case, some advocacy group did the polling. Until I know more about them and their motives, I will not pass judgement.

If the Democratic Party did the polling directly before taking these people to the polls, I would agree that is immoral.

Quote:
And lastly, if you indeed confirm (as I believe you have) that you believe polling went down in these shelters 8 years ago before the homeless were taken to the polls isn't that still an immoral act for that election year even if it wasn't done this year?
If done by a party, campaign or candidate - YES.

I don't know anything about the group who did the polling.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:52 PM   #238
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Yes, it could be construed as such, but only by someone who views every action by Democrats and Republicans as evil.
Or by someone who has been offered a blowjob by a crack whore for a ride. Or by someone who grew up in a place where folks have been stabbed after refusing to give a ride/give up their car to homeless people (last story here if you're interested http://www.vindy.com/news/2007/nov/1...p-for-renewal/).

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Yes, polling took place by a nonpartisan group not affiliated with the Democrats or Republicans.
BINGO! I've established polling done before folks were taken to the polls. Oh, by the way... no need to keep using the word Democrats or Republicans. This ain't MSNBC CK. You're debating a political agnostic (Tark's word...so damn good).

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Depends. Who did the polling? What were their reasons?

In this case, some advocacy group did the polling. Until I know more about them and their motives, I will not pass judgement.
You think you're off the hook by trying to divide the pollsters INSIDE with the folks waiting OUTSIDE as the buses run. I don't have to establish a connection there CK. And I know you would love for me to argue that there was a connection cuz that's what they probably did on Fox News the other night. All I have to do is establish (and you now have done so under cross-examination ) that a group of individuals conducted impromptu polling of party affiliation of homeless people before a political party took said group to the polls. The immoral crime begins with the polling...and you want to push that on the "advocacy group". BUT...any moral group...political party or not...would NEVER take a group of homeless people to vote after they were given a party affiliation identification test minutes beforehand regardless if they had a hand in it or not. No one would EVER condone a group conducting impromptu polling of people while they were getting their drivers license, a library card or even groceries at a private establishment to essentially "complete" their transaction (in this case, giving the homeless people a ride or food or clothes). Polling like this isn't done to rich folks CK. Voting is sacred and private. Sorry.

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If the Democratic Party did the polling directly before taking these people to the polls, I would agree that is immoral.
I'm going to ignore it cuz you want so desperately to make this a party issue. Life's a b-tich though CK. I'll let you play dumb here.


In conclusion...

Post #195 in this thread says it all. Before I went on the offensive in regards to this issue you gave a flippant/light remark on the subject.

Or... I might argue that the Dems are providing transportation and information to enable people in need to have their voice heard in this system that we call a democracy.

Providing services to the needy.


Not sure why Iím mentioning this because all youíll probably do is cry foul because the prosecution is trying to determine the ďmental stateĒ of the accused (good defense even though it's easy) but itís clear to me and anyone else reading this that you donít understand the plight of the homeless, the issues they face and the immorality of a system subjecting them to these practices. Or you simply don't care.

Actually, this part of your response is sickening...but I'd expect nothing less from someone trying to win a game instead of forging ahead with true progress.

Providing services to the needy.

In your next response, try not to use the word Democrat or Republican. It will do your cause good. Just a tip. I'm workin' with ya...not against ya.:thumbup:

And let me know if you wanna meet that crack whore who'll give a blowjob for a ride. I'm sure I'll see her after our game tonight when I'm dropping off the kids in my old neighborhood.

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Old 10-10-2008, 04:15 PM   #239
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Or by someone who has been offered a blowjob by a crack whore for a ride. Or by someone who grew up in a place where folks have been stabbed after refusing to give a ride/give up their car to homeless people (last story here if you're interested http://www.vindy.com/news/2007/nov/1...p-for-renewal/).
Ethnocentric much?

What makes you think those experiences are unique to you?

Where did I grow up buck? How many people in poverty do I know? Have I ever lived in poverty?

Quote:
BINGO! I've established polling done before folks were taken to the polls. Oh, by the way... no need to keep using the word Democrats or Republicans. This ain't MSNBC CK. You're debating a political agnostic (Tark's word...so damn good).
It's clear that those are the groups you have problems with. Sorry for acknowledging the groups you hate so much.

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You think you're off the hook by trying to divide the pollsters INSIDE with the folks waiting OUTSIDE as the buses run. I don't have to establish a connection there CK.
Yes, you do.

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And I know you would love for me to argue that there was a connection cuz that's what they probably did on Fox News the other night.
Not even Fox News is jumping on this. There's no case to be made.

Quote:
The immoral crime begins with the polling...and you want to push that on the "advocacy group". BUT...any moral group...political party or not...would NEVER take a group of homeless people to vote after they were given a party affiliation identification test minutes beforehand regardless if they had a hand in it or not.
"...if they had a hand in it or not..."

That is exactly the point. Until you establish a connection, your entire argument is bunk.

Quote:
Polling like this isn't done to rich folks CK. Voting is sacred and private. Sorry.
First of all, I'm willing to bet that no one HAD to answer the pollsters. Secondly, until you establish a connection between the pollsters and those who took the people to vote, then your argument lacks teeth.

Without that connection, you can't say that the people operating the buses violated that privacy. All those people did was take people to vote. They didn't take any polls, they didn't ask who they were voting for, they didn't cross any lines of privacy.

Establish the connection, or you have no argument.

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but itís clear to me and anyone else reading this that you donít understand the plight of the homeless, the issues they face and the immorality of a system subjecting them to these practices. Or you simply don't care.
No. I'm simply in favor of helping people in need in any way they desire.

If this people want to vote, and someone is willing to help them vote, I am fine with it, no matter the motives. Unless this people are doing something against the will of the homeless, I see no problem.

I wonder how many of these homeless people are as "outraged" as you...

Quote:
Actually, this part of your response is sickening...but I'd expect nothing less from someone trying to win a game instead of forging ahead with true progress.

Providing services to the needy.
Yeah, if you lack a sense of humor.

The fact of the matter is, my response was a joke, but it also contained truth.

Yes, their are motives behind this practice beyond helping the needy. But in the end, a service was provided to these people, and nothing was done against their will.

Perhaps it would be more desirable if we disenfranchised homeless voters.

Quote:
And let me know if you wanna meet that crack whore who'll give a blowjob for a ride. I'm sure I'll see her after our game tonight when I'm dropping off the kids in my old neighborhood.
Don't worry, I know her. And I know the homeless guy who was taken to the polls. And I know a lot of the people that you think only live in your old neighborhood.
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Old 10-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #240
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Quit using the word ethnocentric. You didn't even know what it meant til I taught it to you.

Other than that, until you're willing to throw the party rhetoric away and understand the situation as it occurs in REAL TIME...the argument is pointless.

Hope ya get there one day CK.

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