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Old 06-09-2004, 02:04 AM   #16
Enoch
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Correction Tarkus, Jordan dropped 61 and Iverson now holds that record; also, Kobe's career high in points is 56, only 5 less than what Jordan did, and Kobe has Shaq. Take Shaq away and Kobe has like 70 points, Shaq's points would have went to Kobe. Furthermore, Kobe is a superior ball handler. If you base your argument on the crossover he did against the Jazz in the finals then you are basing your argument on a crossover where Jordan had his hand on the thigh on his defender and he pushed. It was subtle but it is enough to make a defender fly on his face after he has momentum moving away from his defensive target. Kobe crosses up and brakes defenders on a daily basis and his dribble is one of his strongest points. His dribble is what allows him to penetrate and drive to the hoop for the dunk. It is a well known fact that Kobe is a great driver and ball handler is a superior ball handler to Jordan.

Your point about Kobe having people hanging all over him can easily be deterred and shot down by saying that this kind of stuff still happens. Take all of his free throw attempts this year, Kobe was third in three throws and 5th in free throw attempts, he was 2nd in free throws per 48. Free throws usually come in the lane or when a player is in the air attacking the basket. So you could say Kobe has not stopped attacking the basket, but that he is always in the lane; only Kobe has a better 3 pointer the Jordan which allows him to be more versatile in his scoring and thus more unstoppable. Kobe is one of the best slashers in the league and he is getting better.

Ben Wallace is a better defensive player than anyone on that Celtics team. Youíre also discounting a whole league of players and teams that try and defend Kobe; Detroit is not the only team in the league. Oh, and the Lakers lineup is the most potent lineup ever assembled correct? (That is my opinion; I mean Payton, Kobe, Shaq and Malone!). Well Kobe was still fourth in the league in PPG and he still had Shaq, George, Malone, Payton, Fisher, Walton, and Medvedenko. All of those guys can score, he was the leading scorer for the Lakers and he had all those guys?

In 02-03 he scored 30 PPG had a .383 3 Point, .454 FG, and he only played 37.5 minutes per game, give him the 8 minutes left he has the scoring title and not McGrady.

Last edited by Enoch; 06-09-2004 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 06-09-2004, 02:11 AM   #17
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Hey Enoch, I'm young and enamored with Kobe too.. he's freakin awesome.
But my friend he has a way to go to catch up to his Airness.
Go back and watch some old tapes of Jordan. Feel the Fury.
Feel the Willpower. Watch him bend reality to his will.
Kobe's close, but doesn't quite have that... yet.
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Old 06-09-2004, 02:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tarkus
It's obvious you're young & enamored with Kobe, Enoch. That's fine except you make your argument as tho MJ played in George Mikans era.

Players have not gotten faster since MJs time. Hell, in this present league, an old MJ was averaging over 20 a game.
The defense is better nowadays??? You gotta be ****tin' me..

Since you like to bring up AI "breaking MJs ankles" highlite, let me ask you...Do you know how many years MJ was in the league when that happened??? & can you explain how AI routinely "breaks ankles" around the league & including, I might add, more than once with your favorite player??

No player has the success alone in a team sport & Pippen was crucial to that success. Don't imply Kobe would be so much better without Shaq. that's an argument with nothing but supposition behind it. Right now, Bryant plays Robin to Shaqs Batman....It's the way it is....Get used to it.

Arguing what the future holds is useless. Stick with the facts....
Look, I don't fancy being called "young and enamored". I'm in college and not at all stupid or naive.

I didn't say players got faster, I said defense has. As the game gets older players get better, fact. Players work on D and they get better at it. As a great player comes and sets a standard there are thousands of kids out there trying to go higher than the standard set. Defense wins games, I know this, players know this and you know this. So the D does get better and it is getting better.

Your right, MJ was averaging 20 points per game....... on the Wizards, the worst team in the league. Karl Malone was scoring 20.6 last year and he was older! It is not rare for a hall of famer on a below average or average team to lead his team in scoring. Bird, Kareem, Dr. J, and many other hall of famers did it. Kobe will do it. Stockton led the league in assists at over 40. Shaq is a 12 year vet, 2 more years he reaches Jordanís total of 15 years. Shaq is going to be scoring 20 plus in 2 seasons, so I mean, what is your point?

Now, on to Iverson, he did this in 96, the year Jordan won his last ring. He was very good that year, again, what is your point?

If Kobe is Robin and Shaq Batman why do opposing teams worry more about Kobe? They work around Shaq and simply foul him. Kobe however is to all around and Shaq has reduced himself to saying Kobe is Better than Jordan. You say it is Shaq begging Kobe to stay, would Batman beg Robin to stay? Kobe is the one that has all L.A. worried about his leaving, not Phil Jackson or Shaq, the Staples center doesn't chant Shaq's name, they chant Kobe's name.

Last edited by Enoch; 06-09-2004 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 06-09-2004, 02:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnBreezy
Hey Enoch, I'm young and enamored with Kobe too.. he's freakin awesome.
But my friend he has a way to go to catch up to his Airness.
Go back and watch some old tapes of Jordan. Feel the Fury.
Feel the Willpower. Watch him bend reality to his will.
Kobe's close, but doesn't quite have that... yet.
Look, I have Kobe and Jordan highlight reels on tape, harddrive and in my memory. I have seen "His airness" and I have seen Kobe, I like Kobe better and I have seen there stats, Kobe is better.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:00 AM   #20
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No need to get testy, little grasshopper....

Clean up some of your stats, will ya....

MJ scored 63 on the Boston Celtics on 5/20/'86

Pippen did not lead them to a title in MJs retirement year. They were eliminated in 7 to the New York Knicks.

Besides that, alot of your argument is silly. If you're in college, you should know comparing the 2 is impossible at this stage. You argue with emotion, not facts.

Like I said before, I didn't want to diss anyones favorite player but you keep at it to the point it has to be said.

Making comparisons on a dunk is absurd....Making statements like "everybody knows Kobe's a superior ballhandler" doesn't make it so cuz you said it......
Comparing Malones' average from the Jazz with Stockton to MJs with nobody is equally absurd.

You equate scoring being down with great defense when guys are missing shots left & right with nobody on them...
You say Kobe is a better 3 point shooter & he should be with all the 3s he takes. MJ heard that one too before the 91/92 Finals with Portland when they said the only thing MJ couldn't do was hit the trey. Game 1....First half....6 treys....End of discussion....

You say you've seen their stats.....Get new glasses....& sue your eye doctor.....
MJ>>>>>>>>>>



Career Highlights

# Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1987-88, 1990-91, 1991-92, 1995-96, 1997-98)
# Ten-time All-NBA First Team selection (1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
# Selected in 1996 as one of the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History"
# A member of six Chicago Bulls NBA championship teams (1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98)
# Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
# The 1987-88 NBA Defensive Player of the Year and record nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection (1987-88 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98)
# Entering 2002-03, ranked first in NBA history in scoring average (31.0 ppg), second in steals (2,391), fourth in points (30,652) and in field-goals made (11,513), fifth in free-throws made (7,061), sixth in field-goals attempted (23,010) and eighth in free-throws attempted (8,448)
# Closed the 1997-98 season as the Bulls' all-time franchise leader in points, rebounds (5,836), assists (5,012), steals, games (930), field-goals made and attempted and free-throws made and attempted (8,115) Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in scoring (10)
# Shares the NBA record with Wilt Chamberlain for most consecutive seasons leading the league in scoring (seven, 1986-87 to 1992-93)
# Holds the NBA record for most consecutive games scoring in double-digits (842)
# Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in field-goals made (10) and attempted (10)
# Led the NBA in steals in 1987-88 (3.16 spg), 1989-90 (2.77 spg) and 1992-93 (2.83 spg)
# Holds the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one half (20 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most most free-throws attempted in one half (23 in the same game)
# Shares the NBA single-game records for most free-throws made in one quarter (14 against the Utah Jazz on 11/15/89 and against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92) and most free-throws attempted in one quarter (23 against the Miami Heat on 12/30/92)
# Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average (41.0 ppg in 1993)
# Entering the 2002-03 season, ranks as the all-time NBA Finals leader in three-pointers made (42), second in three-point attempts (114), third in points (1,176), fourth in steals (62), fifth in field-goals made (438), sixth in assists (209) and free-throws made (258), seventh in field-goals attempted (911) and eighth in free-throws attempted (320)
# Holds the NBA Playoffs record for highest career scoring average (33.4 ppg)
# Established an NBA Playoffs record with 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 5/20/86
# Entering the 2002-03 season ranks as the all-time NBA Playoffs leader in field-goals attempted (4,497), free-throws made (1,463) and attempted (1,766), second in steals (376) and field-goals made (2,188), fifth in assists (1,022), seventh in three-point attempts (446) and ninth in three-pointers made (148)
# Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (5/9/89 and 6/2/93)
# Participated in 13 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98, 2002-03), starting 13 times, and missed another due to injury
# Named the MVP of the 1988, 1996 and 1998 NBA All-Star Games
# All-time NBA All-Star Game leader in steals (35) and ranks second in field-goal attempts (206), third in points (242), fourth in scoring average (20.2 ppg), and eighth in assists (52)
# Notched the first triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland
# Won the Slam Dunk Contest in 1987 and 1988, also participating in 1985
# Notched his 28th career triple-double, with 30 points, 11 rebounds and 10 assists, against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97


Courtesy of NBA.com
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:16 AM   #21
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The funniest thing about this argument ( and Enoch's question in general) is that Salley was talking about who is better: Kobe or MJ. He never said in that original thread conversation with Chris Rose that he thought that the person who was better WAS THE BEST EVER.

And to further add on that note, Salley ( to which I fully agree with) has said on numberous occassions that Magic Johnson is the greatest player he's ever played against AND THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER.

But, whatever.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:17 AM   #22
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Great point, Buckeye....

It's all an opinion, nothing more.....
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:17 AM   #23
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And on Kobe and Jordan on my list, well, Jordan is in my top five, while Kobe can't smell my top 15 yet.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:23 AM   #24
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lolol....

On mine, it's MJ on top with Magic second & that could be cuz it took Magic a little longer to get his 6'9'' out of his sports car to get in first....

& while I see alot of talent in Kobe, he's not even on my radar yet when it comes to best ever....

P.S. One more thing before I go, Buckeye....

I love that Enoch thinks this Laker team is the most potent. I just about had a aneurysm from lauging so hard. I guess a washed upped Payton, old Malone, & Devon George trump the Magic Championship teams.....

Have a good one.....
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:41 AM   #25
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LOL...Yeah, I basically said 15 Tarkus, but who knows. If I sat down and did a list, he'd be on it, but far down. Right now, Kobe isn't even CLOSE to being the best 2 guard ever to play for the Lakers. Jerry West is.

Perhaps after the Finals Tarkus, a little Jordan vs. Magic debate sounds nice ? I've never really had a good debate on the topic for those who believe Jordan was better ( which is a vast majority, actually proably everyone) because a minute into it I hear talk about dunks and sneaker sells, instead of basket cuts and passes from the elbow to streaking forwards.
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Old 06-09-2004, 03:51 AM   #26
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I'm of the mind in alot of these debates to call them "apple & oranges" types of debates. NO one, & I mean NO ONE matches up to Magic & his handling of a team. The ultimate Field General. & that's before you even get to his offense.

I'll take a go with you on that one. That's probably the toughest call when you say best ever........
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Old 06-09-2004, 05:07 AM   #27
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Well, that's EXACTLY what I look for Tarkus. The field general. B-ball is a team sport ( or once was for that matter). The greatest team handler is the best IMO. Best ever is kind of abstract, agreed.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:30 PM   #28
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Jordan Or Kobe?
First Kobe is My favorite player in the League.
I love The way Kobe plays on the Court. Jordan was a poet on the court, and nobody can deny that. Both players Jordan and Kobe have ways of taking control of games. Both have the athleticism of a greek an olympian.
Kobe has Shaq the most Dominant force on the court.
Jordan had Pippen a great star, yet Jordan made him great.

Kobe has been able to keep a mental focus on the game court to focus on the gamewhile on the other court his future is at stake.
Jordan won a championship after his father passed away.

Both have inpenitrible defense.

What do I believe seperates the two?

Jordans goal was excellence, while Kobes goal is to be like Jordan.

Dispite all the highlights Jordan has accomplished, and despite all the highlights kobe has accomplished, No man can be any closer to excellence when it comes to the NBA like Jordan.
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Old 06-09-2004, 06:58 PM   #29
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LMAO, how did I know Buckeye was going to sneak Magic into this....

What I see is a very balanced argument from Tarkus, an obviously pro-Kobe bias from Enoch, and an obviously anti-Kobe bias from Buckeye.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaptistBaller


while Kobes goal is to be like Jordan.

How do you figure that? Sure lots of people see the obvious similarities, but Kobe has never proclaimed that he wants to be like Jordan. If anything, he discourages that and says he doesn't want to be the "next Jordan", he just wants to be the best basketball player he can be.
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