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Old 06-09-2004, 09:36 PM   #31
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I haven't read all these posts because it seems so ridiculous. I mean, c'mon, no one will ever be able to fill His Airness' shoes. Especially if Kobe is behind bars a year from now. (Not saying it'll happen and I'm pulling for him, but you never know.) What you have to understand is that Jordan is more than a basketball player, he is a brand, a legend whose symbol is globally recognized. No athlete has this kind of univeral appeal or recognition, Kobe doesn't even come close. Jordan's movies, endorsements, and how he promoted the game of basketball are unmatched.

And for kicks:

Michael Jordan search produces 4,790,000 results on Google.
Kobe Bryant search produces 960,000 results on Google.

Kobe is a great player who showes flashes of Jordan, but Jordan dominated when the level of play was higher in the league, and without a dominant big man. There is NO question in my mind.

Jordan has so many trademark shots and moves, what honestly does Kobe have that is unique? I am also (going to be) a college student, and I really like Kobe, but I am sticking with Jordan. In other words, this isn't an age or generation thing. I think back to Jordan's tongue sticking out, his incredible reverse layups, and dunks over bigger players. Meanwhile, Kobe's had some amazing shots, but nothing that really sticks yet. This might have to do with him being 25, and that's why we can't compare the two yet. We will be able to when he is retired ... or in jail.
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:40 PM   #32
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I agree with Marc when he says what trademark does kobe have? He is probally going to be one of the greats, but he has got so far to go.
No he did not say that he wants to Jordan. But his whole game centers around it, from the tounge, to the playing through agame though he had a "sickness".
I love KObe's play but I know where it came from.
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:45 PM   #33
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I'm not anti-Kobe Shawn, that's laughable. He's just not NEARLY as good as Magic, West, or Jordan for that matter. The kid is 25 years old. I need more to see where I put him. Is Kobe in the top 3 today?...sure, without a doubt ( Duncan, Shaq...no mention of ringless players please, only winners here).

I " sneaked" Magic in because it pertained to the thread. Salley and Rose were debating who was better, MJ or Kobe. HE NEVER SAID THAT WHOEVER HE PICKED WAS THE GREATEST. And on several occassions, Salley has said Magic was the greatest, hence, I named him.

Marc...

At the risk of sounding older then dirt ( although Tray and Tarkus will hopefully back me up on this one), your reasons for Jordan's greatness are weak and shallow. Google searches? How about who comes off of pick n' rolls the cleanest? Endorsements? How about who knows how to send his defender to drive to the hoop where a man will be there to block his shot?

And now I ask you younger guys who are going nuts on this topic the following...

Why in the world is ESPN and the media at large comparing Kobe to Jordan when it's so obvious that Jordan ( as of today) is clearly better then Kobe? Because Kobe hit a game winner last night? Because the media and ESPN need new blood to increase revenue? Because old school isn't cool and doesn't sell, but new school brings home the bacon? Hmmm...just consider that guys. See, us senior citizens have seen them all and rail against the " Johnny come latlelys" because we know better. Know you young guys should be able to see a little of what we talk about. You guys are old enough to see Jordan and Kobe, and now Kobe is allegedly better? Just keep that in mind when I (and the old guys) talk of your Bird's, Magic's, and Kareem's to name a few. If we don't speak of their glory, no one will, because they can't bring in the buck.

When you get old enough, you'll see the media creations and bias and learn to be smart on who and what you believe. That's why you have to go all the way back and give it up for the West's, Cousy's, and Russell's too.

One day, Jordan will be a relic, and someone must preserve his glory. Til that day comes, I have no need to hear of his greatness because I saw it firsthand.
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:46 PM   #34
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Yep, it came from Jordan, Kobe is a Jordan disciple. And we all know imitations are never as good as the real thing.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:37 PM   #35
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lol, Buckeye.....good post
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Old 06-10-2004, 06:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78

At the risk of sounding older then dirt
How old are you, Buck? are we talking 60+?
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:22 PM   #37
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I'm only 37 Shawn !!!!! But I remember the day when b-ball was good, cars were made of steel, when you called customer service you talked to someone who could help you, not a computer who made you push all kinds of numbers to answer a yes and no question, and sporting events were just games, not the Super Bowl: brought to you by IBM, McDonalds, and the good people at Nokia or whatever the hell goes on now.

I did walk in a few feet of snow to school everyday too, but it was only about a mile and a half...LOL. ( true though)
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:41 PM   #38
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Yeah Buckeye, good post.

You said it right on the money for us elder-statesman.

Though isn't it funny when Kobe makes a game winning shot or an incredible dunk/layup, people always say Jordanesque? I think we all know Jordan set the standard for years to come.
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:58 PM   #39
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It's just about giving credit to the old guys. For the love of God, the NBA would be DEFUNCT if it wasn't for the revival of it by Magic and Bird. Isn't that worth a little props for two " decent" players?

West is all time Mr. Clutch in my book. He hit so many big shots against stronger competition then Jordan did, however Jordan's arsenal was stronger. MJ had the jumper, the fade a way, and the post up ( stronger then West's) operating at a higher level then West.
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:02 AM   #40
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Enoch...come home.....

Since you liked to bring up 1 dunk from game 2 to make your "greatest" point for Kobe, how about game 3?? The whole game???

MJ routinely went thru, around, & over 2-3-4 defenders in a game. For a showcase Finals game, Kobe looked more than human.
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Old 06-11-2004, 06:10 PM   #41
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^^^but is that true? Jordan's hey day was at a time where there was such a thing as illegal defense. Kobe's recent years have had to deal with the rule changes of '01-'02, and I have to believe those kinds of changes would've affected Jordan's game a lot more had they been implemented during the '80s.

That is something you have to consider when you compare these two guys...as Salley alluded to, defensive strategy has completely changed since those glory days of Jordan. Would Jordan be flying to the rack as much as he did in the past if two-three guys are constantly waiting for him in the lane?

One thing's for certain: at this point in time of their careers, I believe Kobe has the stronger perimeter game than Jordan.

Ultimately, however, I'd like to see what Kobe does the rest of his career before we even talk about this in a more thoughtful manner.
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Old 06-11-2004, 06:27 PM   #42
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If you gave Kobe the "Jordan Rule's" we wouldn't even have this discussion. We'd be talking about Kobe and Wilt over who the greatest player of all time is.
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Old 06-12-2004, 12:06 AM   #43
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I guess both of you are too young to know what the "Jordan Rules" really were. They were nothing more then a rolling zone. Liking Kobe so much you want him to be the greatest is better served in your head, not in debate.

There were more non called illegal defenses with MJ than anyone in the league. This idea that Kobe would benefit more from it leaves the major point that defenders could maul you, hook you, hold you, bang you & still not get called for it. Kobe doesn't have that problem now with the current rules. If MJ had these rules being used to being zoned all those years, his average would be staggering.

Kobe has a better perimeter game at this point of their careers cuz he plays out at the 3 point line. He doesn't routinely post up players like MJ did. MJ had an explosive 1 step with the ability to consistently ball handle thru double teams while Kobe has a quick first step but loses his dribble when doubled alot.

MJ was superior going to his left, had a superior FG%, '87/'88 NBA Defensive Player of the year, was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team...9 times.

Don't make me even continue cuz it sounds like I'm denigrating Bryant when I actually find him to be an amazing offensive player who's above average on D. But when this thread gets too out of hand, I'm forced to state the facts. The basis of this thread was more on likes than the breakdown of stats, intangibles, or history. It was fun till the facts got skewed. Stats aren't the full story of what teams faced when up against MJ but even using those, Kobe suffers in comparison.

For chuckles, here's how Bryant matched up against the 40 year old MJ.........

Michael Jordan
Washington Wizards
Position: G
Height: 6-6 Weight: 216
College: North Carolina '84
Player file | Team stats
2002-03 Statistics
PPG 20.0
RPG 6.1
APG 3.8
SPG 1.50
BPG .48
FG% .445
FT% .821
3P% .291
MPG 37.0

Kobe Bryant
Los Angeles Lakers
Position: G
Height: 6-6 Weight: 220
High School: Lower Merion (PA)
Player file | Team stats
2003-04 Statistics
PPG 24.0
RPG 5.5
APG 5.1
SPG 1.72
BPG .43
FG% .438
FT% .852
3P% .327
MPG 37.6
And for the first 8 year comparison.......
MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CAREER AVERAGES
REBOUNDS PER GAME
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
84-85 CHI 82 82 38.3 .515 .173 .845 2.00 4.50 6.50 5.9 2.39 .84 3.55 3.50 28.2
85-86 CHI 18 7 25.1 .457 .167 .840 1.30 2.30 3.60 2.9 2.06 1.17 2.50 2.60 22.7
86-87 CHI 82 82 40.0 .482 .182 .857 2.00 3.20 5.20 4.6 2.88 1.52 3.32 2.90 37.1
87-88 CHI 82 82 40.4 .535 .132 .841 1.70 3.80 5.50 5.9 3.16 1.60 3.07 3.30 35.0
88-89 CHI 81 81 40.2 .538 .276 .850 1.80 6.20 8.00 8.0 2.89 .80 3.58 3.00 32.5
89-90 CHI 82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.70 5.10 6.90 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6
90-91 CHI 82 82 37.0 .539 .312 .851 1.40 4.60 6.00 5.5 2.72 1.01 2.46 2.80 31.5
91-92 CHI 80 80 38.8 .519 .270 .832 1.10 5.30 6.40 6.1 2.28 .94 2.50 2.50 30.1

Bryant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CAREER AVERAGES
REBOUNDS PER GAME
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
96-97 LAL 71 6 15.5 .417 .375 .819 .70 1.20 1.90 1.3 .69 .32 1.58 1.40 7.6
97-98 LAL 79 1 26.0 .428 .341 .794 1.00 2.10 3.10 2.5 .94 .51 1.99 2.30 15.4
98-99 LAL 50 50 37.9 .465 .267 .839 1.10 4.20 5.30 3.8 1.44 1.00 3.14 3.10 19.9
99-00 LAL 66 62 38.2 .468 .319 .821 1.60 4.70 6.30 4.9 1.61 .94 2.76 3.30 22.5
00-01 LAL 68 68 40.9 .464 .305 .853 1.50 4.30 5.90 5.0 1.68 .63 3.24 3.30 28.5
01-02 LAL 80 80 38.3 .469 .250 .829 1.40 4.10 5.50 5.5 1.48 .44 2.79 2.90 25.2
02-03 LAL 82 82 41.5 .451 .383 .843 1.30 5.60 6.90 5.9 2.21 .82 3.51 2.70 30.0
03-04 LAL 65 64 37.6 .438 .327 .852 1.60 3.90 5.50 5.1 1.72 .43 2.63 2.70 24.0

So let's hold this thread off for about 7 more years & we'll check back. At this stage Kobe isn't beating the first 8 year comparison.......
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Old 06-12-2004, 01:41 AM   #44
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I don't know about Kobe being above average on D Tarkus. The man should be known as Kenny Rogers because he loves to gamble. Count the times he flies past his man when that man is about to recieve a pass, then that guy pops a shot or finds another open guy because the Lakers are scrambling on their rotations because Kenny...errr...I mean Kobe tried to make a big play and wow us all with a dunk on the other end of the floor.

This Kobe-MJ debate is mystifying to me. A media creation. Would Jordan EVER only get 11 points ( or 13, whichever Kenny got last night) in a Finals game? If anything, I've lowered Kobe in the last 2 years when stacking up against Jordan.

....( singing...know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em)
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Old 06-12-2004, 01:53 AM   #45
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LOL, Buckeye....

It's my nature on threads not to try to be too heavy handed but with your questions, I can't deny it.

I think Kobe plays better D when he feels comfortable with who he's guarding. I really believe he doesn't put himself in positions against guys that will make him look bad. Regardless of how he stacks up against MJ, there's been no reason why he wouldn't consistently be All-Defensive First Team if he was that good. Since he hasn't, nuff said....

Other times, I agree he gambles for the big play & leaves everyone in a lurch.....Kenny Rogers...LOLOL

Aptly put.....& media creation is EXACTLY it & something I thought even the youngest could see but I guess I'm completely wrong on that. I knew this thread was started with an emotional outcry by a Kobe fan so I tried to handle it with an easy touch but wow...it's like they never saw either of them play.....
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