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Old 06-12-2004, 02:04 AM   #46
buckeyefan78
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Agreed Tarkus on the media creation. Thing is, I firmly believe that, to an extent, Jordan's greatness was media created as well. Let me be clear that I say some extent, because Jordan was great, but the way the media kissed his butt and just shoved him down our throats was amazing. If you look, like you said, at the younger guys words on this topic, they have fallen for it too. We have people defending Kobe on this one, Marc calling out google searches, and no mention of the real issues.

People used to wait for MJ's dunk, his tongue, his sneakers. I know I'm tough on him in here, and I personally don't like him, but for the love of God, what about his ability to get past a defender on the baseline without going out of bounds? How about all those high screens he came off of and found his lowly center ( my favorite...Luc...lol) under the hoop with a pass? AWESOME B-BALL !

Trying to be tactful, as you said Tarkus, but everytime a Jordan fan defends Jordan, I find the words to be meaningless and uneducated. A product of his game? A product of the one on one game he created that has ruined the league? You make the call. All I know is that I don't think Jordan is the greatest ever, and by far, yet I can make the best argument if needs be when debating against Jordan fans.

There's just something wrong with that, and in my mind, it's partly, if not all that is wrong with the league today.
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Old 06-12-2004, 02:32 AM   #47
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First off, let me say I'm a Chicago guy so I admit a percentage of bias. That's the first hurdle I deal with. I fully agree that the greats before him set him up in a time that he fully took advantage of. The media explosion across the world took the NBA to it's greatest heights with MJ as their poster boy.

His talent was more than up to the challenge but with that exposure came the Nikes of the world runnin' to cash in. There never will be another MJ & I fully agree but more for the idea that those circumstances will never be there again.

The shame & I agree with you, is that once it got to it's zenith, it morphed into a business that was a sport than the old way where it was a sport that the owners ran as a business. So I find the business end to be the true destroyer of the league today as the hierarchy of the NBA & owners try to replicate something that can't be replicated. Looking for the next phenom all the way down thru high school now in hopes of resurrecting a suffering league. It's like treating a hemmorrage with a bandaid.

The only saving would have been the integrity of the league when it came to the standards but that horse has left the barn a long time ago.

I'll still give you a good argument on a Magic/MJ thread but probably in a way that won't be expected since I have them both so close on my list.
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Old 06-12-2004, 03:19 AM   #48
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Good post Tarkus.

And to continue on the theme of the business, and how it got to that point, I partly blame Jordan for it. He ran with it and let the league and the rest of the public think dunking was cool, and my tongue out is awesome, and that's how you win titles. See, Jordan was one sly cat. He knew FULL WELL that sneakers, the commercials, the NBA's image overhaul in the 90s was benefiting him because it created Jordan wannabes. And how does a TOTALLY DOMINATE AND COMPLETELY FLAWLESS SCORER win against a guy who can jump high, has baggy shorts, but wouldn't know the word competition like MJ's defintion of it if it hit him on the head? Anyway and everyway he wants, that's how.

I wanted Jordan to speak out more. Tell the young guys it ain't all flashbulbs and dunking. I don't think he did that and I hate him for it on a level, but I see to some extent why he kept his mouth shut and let himself be worshiped. First, he won ring after ring. Second, the $ rolled in. In that regard, I can't say I blame him, but it still irks me.

And now we get to present day and this thread and the Kobe debate. A guy hits a game winning shot and we are suppossed to worship him and say he is better then Jordan because that shot was today and not in 1998? Does that make sense to anyone with a logical thought in their brain? And the youth keep buying it. And the game gets worse. Can we blame Kobe? The rings roll in and so does the cash for him, like Jordan.
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Old 06-12-2004, 10:20 AM   #49
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Kobe got four extra years coming out of highschool
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Old 06-12-2004, 05:03 PM   #50
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Yea, Cubfan....

But wear & tear is already taking it's toll on Bryant. Look how many games he's missed thru 8 years. Something life 95 or so while MJ missed about 93 in a little over 14 years. Some of those weren't injury related but most were.

So I don't think coming out earlier will benefit Kobe in the long run....
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Old 06-12-2004, 05:04 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tarkus
I guess both of you are too young to know what the "Jordan Rules" really were. They were nothing more then a rolling zone. Liking Kobe so much you want him to be the greatest is better served in your head, not in debate.

There were more non called illegal defenses with MJ than anyone in the league. This idea that Kobe would benefit more from it leaves the major point that defenders could maul you, hook you, hold you, bang you & still not get called for it. Kobe doesn't have that problem now with the current rules. If MJ had these rules being used to being zoned all those years, his average would be staggering.

Kobe has a better perimeter game at this point of their careers cuz he plays out at the 3 point line. He doesn't routinely post up players like MJ did. MJ had an explosive 1 step with the ability to consistently ball handle thru double teams while Kobe has a quick first step but loses his dribble when doubled alot.

MJ was superior going to his left, had a superior FG%, '87/'88 NBA Defensive Player of the year, was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team...9 times.

Don't make me even continue cuz it sounds like I'm denigrating Bryant when I actually find him to be an amazing offensive player who's above average on D. But when this thread gets too out of hand, I'm forced to state the facts. The basis of this thread was more on likes than the breakdown of stats, intangibles, or history. It was fun till the facts got skewed. Stats aren't the full story of what teams faced when up against MJ but even using those, Kobe suffers in comparison.
The "Jordan Rules" I was referring to simply have to do with Jordan playing by one set of rules and everyone else in the league playing with another. Jordan got the extra step, he got the extra rub, he could play tighter defense.

We're having this conversation when Kobe hasn't been allowed to get away with as much as Jordan constantly did. I personally have Wilt as the greatest player, then Jordan, then Magic, then, maybe, Kobe. But the point was that if people will compare Kobe to Jordan and Kobe doesn't get the calls, imagine what they would be doing if he DID. I was simply trying a sly way of saying that Wilt was the greatest of all time.
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Old 06-12-2004, 05:15 PM   #52
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Agreed, Buckeye.....

MJ was a competitor in everything he did. He saw the business end of the media blitz firsthand & took full advantage. He carries as much responsibility in the damage to the NBA as the owners.

I don't blame Kobe at all for his approach. It's just a shame the marketing of the league has players forgetting what a gift the NBA is. To be able to PLAY a game you love is one thing but now it's the potential for world wide adulation & sponsor money that rules the day.....

People laughed at the WNBA & its' ratings but in the next few years the NBA will close that gap....
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Old 06-12-2004, 05:25 PM   #53
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lol, Doug......Sneaky.....

I see your point about MJ getting "extras" but you discount that he routinely was mauled for going where few guards feared to tread...the lane. Hard fouls were the norm back where the rule of thumb for defenders was to make the offensive player pay. Kobe has the protection of touch fouls on offense.

On D, MJ wasn't a great defender for holding back a ball handler but in spending the energy to stay in front of him. Kobe doesn't play "in your face" kind of D as a rule.

After the Finals, we're gonna have a best ever thread & I'd like to hear your Wilt "entry". Should be fun....
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Old 06-12-2004, 07:14 PM   #54
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The title of best player of all-time comes down to Michael Jordan or Bill Russell. Kobe Bryant isn't even the best player in the League now. Tim Duncan is. Crap, Kobe isn't even the best player on his team. Shaq is.
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Old 06-12-2004, 10:46 PM   #55
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What Jordan got away with the most was that offensive hook when going around a defender, especially on the baseline.

Doug's got Wilt Chamberlain. Rawdog's got Bill Russell as his greatest. Wow, did you guys check your answers with the media and world at large? You're not picking MJ, you could be sent to room without dinner for that.
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:23 AM   #56
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LOL, Buckeye....

I didn't check with the media & the world at large but luckily I've picked MJ ....I guess I'll get dinner after all...lol

You're right about the "hook" but I always saw that as the equalizer for all the holding where the defenders couldn't keep up with his first step. After all, you can't hook unless you've already got the step on 'em to begin with.

Breaking News >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Tarkus Tattler June 13,2004

Kobe Unmasked

For all those who have transformed their favorite player, Kobe Bryant, into the best ever, have found this latest Finals to be a hard pill to swallow. Not only can't he compete on any level with MJ in this thread but the reality that Shaq is truly the the best player on the Lakers is more than obvious now. Shaqs' presence & the oppositions' attempt at containing him has long opened the door for Bryants' offensive opportunities & this Finals has cemented that reality.
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:26 AM   #57
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All this talk of the Best ever and no Larry Bird (and only one Bill Russell---The guy has 11 freakin rings)

For anybody who thinks Kobe is a better player: see 2004 NBA finals game 3 and 4.

This guy looks completely befuddled by the exact same defense that Jordan saw in every playoff game.
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Old 06-14-2004, 01:33 AM   #58
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Excellent point, Tray....

& I agree after the Finals there should be a thread of best ever with a wiiiide door for anyones' choice. I know it's just an opinion but with the right argument, who knows, we might have some converts to other players....
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Old 06-14-2004, 09:41 PM   #59
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Just knowing you have Magic close to number one Tarkus, I'll " convert" you from the dark side of the force ( Jordan)...LOL.

Defenders holding Jordan was a problem. My favorite is Reggie Miller shoving MJ out of the way to make that game winner in the 99 playoffs. I remember watching that and wondering how in the hell isn't that a foul on Miller?

Like Tarkus said Tray, we're getting a best ever thread after these idiots of today are done tackling each other and sitting out of their team huddles ( looks like Tuesday at this rate). BTW...I have Russell second to Magic, so take hope in that !
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:05 AM   #60
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You know Magic never won a title without Kareem, just like the same way Kobe won't win a title without Shaq. Each of those guys won with a dominant center. Jordan won titles with Luke Longley, Will Purdue.... LOL! You can make a case that Jordan didn't win without Pippen, but Pippen isn't your dominant center. Pippen did make the playoffs without Jordan but didn't make it too far. So it's safe to say that Pippen couldn't win without Jordan.

Magic and Kobe didn't have to put their team on their shoulders. Jordan had to put his team as well as the entire league on his shoulders.
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