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boston_aloha 10-22-2007 10:57 PM

Tom Brady
 
I was not going to write this post until after the Colts / Patriots game but since it was brought up tonight at the PTI halftime show, I'll post it now

If Tom Brady breaks Manning's record for TD passes and pass rating AND wins the SB this season. Is he the greatest QB in NFL history?

I would think so, because along with 4 SB's (2 SB MVP's), he would hold those records and I think that would make him the greatest. When I think of greatest QB's I think or records and SB's. He would be tied for the most SB's of all time and I think with breaking those records (or at least setting a bench mark for the next QB to break them) that would push him over the edge against all others.

To me, our great QB's like Manning hold these records... but he's had so much talent to throw to over the years. Brady had no one and still was able to grind out 3 SB's. That's amazing - the other teams that won 3 bowls in 4 years had WR's named Irvin and Rice (the best to ever play the game some may argue). Now that Brady has a WR named Moss we are seeing just how good he really is. Can you imagine if he had guys like Harrison or Moss to throw to since 2001? There would probably be no debate of who the best is. He would hold all the records and have about 4 SB rings by now.

One thing Wilbon brought up that bothered me (I like Wilbon too) was that he said Brady has had "no signature moments". I honestly couldn't believe he said that! How bout that last drive in 2001 to beat the Rams as 14 point underdogs? That has gone down as one of the best moments in SB history. In 2003 he did the same thing again to beat the Panthers. What more do you want for signature moments?

I know its still early but it has been on my mind. Obviously as a Pats fan I'm having a lot of fun this season watching him. I'm sure everyone's sick of all the talk this season too, as there are OTHER QB's out there playing the game! :D But I just wanted to bring it up and debate it.

Your thoughts?

coachJ 10-22-2007 11:26 PM

Brady is a GREAT QB, there is no doubt about that, but to me right now you are saying that Manning is the greatest QB in NFL history. You are telling me that just because he breaks Mannings records he will be the greatest QB of all time, which i dont think is the case. I think a case could be made for Brady to be the best of all time, but its hard to discount or even compare the QB today to the great QB's in the past like Joe Montana, and going just by Super Bowls Terry Bradshaw and others.

boston_aloha 10-22-2007 11:36 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean it to come off that way. Manning is no where near the greatest. He only has 1 SB and it took him 10 years to finally win. Manning just holds a few records. (I know Farve only has one, but he's played so much longer and done more IMO).
Montana and Bradshaw have the most SB's - their names come up for greatest all time.
Farve, Marino, Elway hold records - their names come up for all time greatest.
Wouldn't it make sense if someone was in BOTH those categories that they would be the greatest?

CKFresh 10-23-2007 09:23 AM

I don't know why the Super Bowl thing is so important. I know that is the ultimate goal of a team, but one player can't win a ring. Hell, players like Trent Dilfer have super bowl rings. Big Ben has a ring. That doesn't define a great QB, or at least it shouldn't.

Brady is good. No, Brady is great. But he is also playing for one of the best franchises in all of sports history. Granted, he is part of that greatness. I simply think he benefits from playing for such a great team.

I guess the way I see it is like this:

If Brady played for any other team would we even consider him in the top ten?

tobynosker 10-23-2007 11:39 AM

In my opinion, John Elway is the greatest quarterback in NFL history.

A nine-time Pro Bowler and a two-time Super Bowl champion who started in a record five Super Bowls, Elway holds the record for the most game-winning or game-tying scoring drives in the fourth quarter, with 47. Elway ranks in the top-five in all-time pass completions, passing yards and passing touchdowns, while holding a winning record against every team except for one.

boston_aloha 10-23-2007 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKFresh (Post 259254)
I don't know why the Super Bowl thing is so important. I know that is the ultimate goal of a team, but one player can't win a ring. Hell, players like Trent Dilfer have super bowl rings. Big Ben has a ring. That doesn't define a great QB, or at least it shouldn't.

Brady is good. No, Brady is great. But he is also playing for one of the best franchises in all of sports history. Granted, he is part of that greatness. I simply think he benefits from playing for such a great team.

I guess the way I see it is like this:

If Brady played for any other team would we even consider him in the top ten?

Great points. I agree ONE superbowl means nothing. But we are talking about a QB that has 3. Three with mediorce players. There was ONE probowler on that 2001 team that year. And it was a defensive player.
If he played for any other team I truly believe he would have a SB ring. If you can win one with guys like JR Redman, Jermain Wiggins - you can win with anybody in this league.

CKFresh 10-23-2007 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boston_aloha (Post 259303)
Great points. I agree ONE superbowl means nothing. But we are talking about a QB that has 3. Three with mediorce players. There was ONE probowler on that 2001 team that year. And it was a defensive player.
If he played for any other team I truly believe he would have a SB ring. If you can win one with guys like JR Redman, Jermain Wiggins - you can win with anybody in this league.

You're probably right. But it is tough to say. How much of it is coaching? And dare I ask, how much was cheating :eek:

Alright, we won't go there.

I would say the Brady could have won on a lot of teams. He has something, I don't know what, that pushes him above all other current QBs.

I do think it is fair to ask, how much of the success was coaching. We will never know though.

Maybe if Bellichik sticks around after Brady retires, we can see what he can do with another QB. Until then, it'll be a mystery

boston_aloha 10-23-2007 05:31 PM

Thats true. And honestly - if he had just won that one SB in 2001 he wouldn't be anything special. That SB was mostly due to great coaching (Belichick, Weis, Crennel) and a great defense. But the fact he got them to 2 more, he established himself as a winner. Now that he has great WR - it feels like he's establishing himself and a great QB with so much talent.
And again, if they do not win the SB, all this talk means nothing IMO. I guess all I can say is that its just fun to watch this season.

I do wonder how Belichick would do with another QB - remember him and Weis pretty much groomed Brady since he came in a "1 yr rookie" backup. I wonder how he would do with a QB thats been in the league for a while.

buckeyefan78 10-23-2007 05:32 PM

I don't know where I'd rank him right now but he's up there...even if he went to Michigan.

Montana was much more a product of a machine than Brady is IMO. The Niners org. was basically what NE is today.

Elway made too many mistakes and had accuracy problems throughout his career. Plus he was a bit immature his first umm...well...8 years in the league. And I'm a HUGE Elway fan.

Marino is up there but never had that certain intangible it takes to win the big one.

Favre has been too average for too long.

Not to sound too old school for you folks but Otto Graham was an amazing QB in his era. As far as versatility, leadership and stats go...he was a distant 1st among his peers during his playing days IMO.

That may be the deciding factor.

Anthony 10-24-2007 03:11 AM

Not for nothing, but all summer long I told everybody who would listen that Tom Brady would outproduce Peyton Manning this year from a pure statistical standpoint; and so far it hasn't even been close (I was invited into this fantasy league via MySpace - and when my turn came to pick, both Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were still on the board, and I selected Brady without the slightest hesitation).

Moral of the story? It's the receivers, stupid - yet some people still don't get it (like my personal Axis of Evil - Jeffrey Lurie, Joe Banner and Andy Reid).

boston_aloha 10-24-2007 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 259359)
It's the receivers, stupid - yet some people still don't get it (like my personal Axis of Evil - Jeffrey Lurie, Joe Banner and Andy Reid).

Yeah, the WR's play a huge part - but Brady has proven that you don't always need them to win a SB, or two, or three :D
But now that he has them... wow - look out!

Marc 10-24-2007 10:21 PM

If Brady and Manning can sustain this, I would tend to say they merit consideration. But I still think they're "in progress."

coachJ 10-24-2007 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boston_aloha (Post 259438)
Yeah, the WR's play a huge part - but Brady has proven that you don't always need them to win a SB, or two, or three :D
But now that he has them... wow - look out!

And Manning has proven that the WR's wont win you a SB either. Lets face it, once you get to the playoffs, your defense wins you the games. Sure, the QB's play a bigger part than the rest of the offense, and the QB's can even lose you the game, but the defense is what wins it. Brady has been great at making decisions and not screwing things up, and thats really what makes a great QB.

This year though, Brady isnt making as great as decisions as he has in the past. Many times hes throwing into double and triple coverage trying to get the ball to Moss, and its Moss bailing him out rather then Brady being so great. Moss is just a spectacular player and when the ball is close to him, 99 times out of 100 hes probably going to end up with the ball.

boston_aloha 10-24-2007 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachJ (Post 259462)
This year though, Brady isnt making as great as decisions as he has in the past. Many times hes throwing into double and triple coverage trying to get the ball to Moss, and its Moss bailing him out rather then Brady being so great. Moss is just a spectacular player and when the ball is close to him, 99 times out of 100 hes probably going to end up with the ball.

Coach, I agree with most of what you said, but let me stop you right there and comment on this ^.

Brady IS making great decisions throwing into that kind of coverage with Moss because he knows Moss will come down with it. He has 27 TD's and 2 (let me repeat that, TWO) INT's. Brady is the FIRST person to tell you (in his post game interviews) that he is just throwing it up there and Moss is coming down with it. He's been quoted as saying "that's not me, that all Randy Moss". Brady could never do that before, he had to thread the needle and be very careful when throwing to guys like Cauldwell, Gaffney and Brown. But now he can just toss it up there and Randy Moss does the rest.

coachJ 10-24-2007 11:00 PM

Oh i know, i would be doing the same thing. Lets face it, Moss is Moss, theres not many like him, the man is an amazing talent. But how long before that starts to come back and bite him in the butt? I still think Brady is a GREAT QB, and if i were trying to run a franchise, I would definately love to have him on my team. Sometimes though, you get so used to doing stuff because its all been going right, that eventually its not going to go your way, and then it wont be Moss taking the blame, it will be Brady.


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