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Bama_AL 12-05-2003 01:05 AM

Thats true Nick, BUT...when the #2 team beats the #3 team, that doesnt necessarily mean that the #2 team's conference is better. And thats how some idiots look at it.

Aristides 12-05-2003 10:18 PM

Ohhh Dave, did I strike a nerve? I'm sooooooooooooooo sorry.

NCState, Maryland, Virginia, and yes even CLEMSON would give the PAC 10 #2 team, which is WSU in case you havent checked in a while, a run for their money.

PAC 10 after the top 2 has......California, Oregon and Oregon State.

Give me the top 5 of the ACC over that of the PAC 10 ANY DAY!!!!!!!!!

NickHammy 12-06-2003 12:33 AM

Give me the top 5 in the MAC and you could give the pac 10 a run for its money. Miami (OH) looks like they could play with anyone right now. I'd be terrified if my Buckeyes had to play them.

Richard the Lionheart 12-07-2003 01:40 AM

Hmmmm, I'm gonna have to change my vote after seeing tonights games. Clearly the Big 12 is the best conference this year. I mean, the best team to ever play college football is only the second best team in the Big 12, so you know the conference is strong...

MountaineerDave 12-07-2003 11:40 AM

Won't argue the Miami OH point, Nick. BGSU might give some Pac10 teams trouble, but I have little faith in Marshall, Toledo, and NIU against Oregon, Oregon St, and Cal.

Ari, I'm sorry, but you are so DEAD WRONG about the ACC that it's pathetic. Next year, different story (sort of). But this year, SC would beat every team in the ACC by 17 or more (mostly more), imo.

I did some calculations on Friday night but haven't had the opportunity to post them yet.

Sneak peek: Big 12 HUGELY overrated, in case you couldn't guess.


Aristides 12-07-2003 02:30 PM

Just because the PAC 10 has one great team doesn't mean you can throw a entire conference over another. WSU has done nothing at all to impress me and as for the rest of the PAC, well...........

NickHammy 12-07-2003 03:18 PM

Dave, I think the MAC would give the PAC 10 a little more trouble than you expect. BGSU beat Purdue earlier this year and stayed close with Ohio State both of those games being away. NIU beat 3 BCS schools (Maryland, Iowa State, Alabama). Toledo had a huge win over Pittsburgh, and of course Marshall beat Kansas State away.

Richard the Lionheart 12-07-2003 11:02 PM

Miami OH is a top ten school at least, they might even be better.

MountaineerDave 12-09-2003 03:11 PM

Miami OH might be a top ten team, but to be completely honest, even if it was season's start, I hold their having been handed their lunch by Iowa against them.

It would be interesting to see them play a major BCS team in a bowl game, though.


MountaineerDave 12-09-2003 04:26 PM

I will be posting those numbers of which I spoke earlier, and we can fold that into a BCS debate, if deemed necessary.


MountaineerDave 12-09-2003 10:01 PM

Okay. So, I take this "best conference" question seriously, having believed growing up that there was no football in the college universe that was better than eastern independents, which included Pitt, West Virginia, and Penn State. Add to that the Flutie-induced Boston College miracle, and well, anyway... along came the Big 10 flouting Sesame Street by calling 11 teams 10 and the miserable Big East...

Anyway, I've always felt the teams of the Big 12 and the SEC were overrated. Like it was in my blood, or something. I'm usually wrong about the SEC, but not the Big 12. Still, putting together some of these numbers proposed things about the Big12's weakness that the media (and coaches, for that matter) seem to miss, while smacking around Big East and to a lesser extent Pac 10 teams for committing the same sins. Here we go.

I only provide numbers on the Big Six (or Big Five plus one, if you prefer to prep for next year). It's reasonable, I think, to leave the indies and the Other Five out of the discussion.

These numbers come right off of that matrix I linked earlier.
Conference non-conference record non-conference win%
ACC 22-14 61
Big 10 30-14 68
Big 12 37-12 76
Big East 24-15 62
Pac 10 25-15 63
SEC 32-17 65

That's all non-conference games. Let's throw out Division 1-AA records against, shall we...

ACC 18-14 56
Big 10 28-14 67
Big 12 30-12 72
Big East 23-14 62
Pac 10 23-15 61
SEC 27-17 61

Nothing earth-shattering here. Yes, the Big East lost a game to division 1-aa. Temple lost to Villanova. Where is 'Nova now? Not sure, but not in 1-AA semis...

So, off the bat, the ACC looks as weak as I always imagined, barely getting over .500 in non-conference competition. The Big 12 retains its spot as tops against opponents from other conferences. I have to say, I was a little annoyed by the B12 remaining over 70% winning, so I decided to look at the following:

BCS conferences v the other BCS conferences.
Conf Record v BCS Win %
ACC 9-11 45
Big 10 12-8 60
Big 12 7-8 47
Big East 6-7 46
Pac 10 8-7 53
SEC 8-9 47

Two things pop out at me right away: Only the Big 10 and Pac 10 are over .500 against other BCS opponents. That's one. The other is that only the ACC and Big 10 seem to significantly schedule against the other BCS conferences. Both conferences lodge 20 other-BCS opponents in their non-conference schedules. Kudos to the ACC and the Big 10 in that regard. SEC came in second with 17, and the Big East has a pathetic 13 games within the BCS. Given the weakness of the conference, that's just shameful.

I took note of the Big 12's 7-8 against the BCS, and then it dawned on me: the Big 12 had the most non-conference matchups, but was middle of the pack in scheduling other BCS teams.

So, who scheduled the most ambitiously among the BCS conferences? More to the point, who is hiding behind a weak non-conference schedule (assuming, mostly correctly, that scheduling against another BCS conference is better than non-BCS scheduling)?

Percent of all non-conference games played v other BCS conferences:
ACC 63
Big 10 48
Big 12 36
Big East 35
Pac 10 39
SEC 39

Wow. The ACC worked the hardest to overcome having a generally weak conference, by scheduling other BCS conferences for nearly two-thirds of their non-conference schedule. (I'm still not a fan, but I respect the gesture all the same. I've a sneaking suspicion this will change next season.)

The Big 10 is the only conference that comes close, with the others sub-40%.

So, looking particularly at the Big 12 again, I started rolling some numbers around in my head... they won 30 non-conference games... only seven of those wins came against other BCS opponents. That's less than one quarter of their wins!!!

Percent of nonconference wins that came against other BCS opponents:
ACC 50
Big 10 43
Big 12 23
Big East 26
Pac 10 35
SEC 30

That Big 12 amazes me, because the conference opened the season with national title contender, and no fewer than four teams in the top 15. The Big 12 puffed up its record by beating Mountain West, WAC and Sun Belt teams. In fact, of the thirty nonconference non-div1-aa wins the Big 12 logged, 17 came against these three conferences. That's just pathetic. And this while logging more division 1-aa opponents than any of the other major conferences. (Tying for #2 with the WAC overall, but the MAC faced 15 division1-aa opponents, outdistancing the Big 12 and WAC significantly.)

So, you tell me.

The numbers bear the fruit that Big 10 disciples want to sell, in my mind, by beating everybody they face. One would like to see them dump some of the MAC showdowns (ten), but how else is the MAC going to gain notoriety, but winning against Big 10 teams (only twice)?

Meanwhile, the ACC and SEC split their head-ons at four a piece.
The Big East, meanwhile, still sucks, and heading into the bowl season, trails the ACC in head-to-heads 3-2. However, by some fluke of the bowl system, the Big East will be afforded three opportunities to take the entire season. (Pitt v UVA, Miami v FSU, and WVU v MD, of course). I'm actually rooting for an even split (want Pitt and WVU to win, Miami to lose...)


Noon 12-09-2003 11:02 PM

Dave, you need a girlfriend.


MountaineerDave 12-09-2003 11:50 PM

I work evenings, Noon. I work a job that allows me too much free time, but one that blocks porn, so all I've got is sports... :uhoh:

Meanwhile, I'm happily married and have a two year-old daughter, so...


Richard the Lionheart 12-10-2003 11:14 PM

Michigan also lost to Iowa.

El Jefe 12-11-2003 07:25 AM

It is always difficult to rank a conference, but if I had to go simply on what I'd lean on yearly, from top-to-bottom in each conference:

Big 10
Big 12
Big East.

After this year...

Big 10
Big 12
Big East

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