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Old 02-14-2010, 01:48 AM   #24
bachslunch
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Default 2010 HOF Nominees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
I would have to disagree with this. IMO Jackson was the weakest -- he was never first team all-pro on the AP team; Grimm was, three times. Grimm was first-team all-decade, Jackson didn't make second-team. In fact, he didn't get a vote.
True enough, but a few things here:

--Jackson was named 1st team all pro by NEA twice (1986 and 1987). Though to be fair, add one NEA 1st team to Grimm's totals as well (1986) if you go this route. Counting this way, Grimm has 4 1st team all pro selections and Jackson 2. But Jackson also went to 6 pro bowls to Grimm's 4.

--all-decade teams are indeed useful, but there are some oddities here, and most definitely some serious head-scratchers at LB. Note that Joe Fortunato is on the all-50s team despite having earned almost all his postseason honors during the 60s, Larry Morris is on the all-60s team despite receiving no postseason honors ever, and both John Anderson and Carl Banks are on the all-80s team despite having one 1st team all pro selection and one pro bowl appearance between them. One may well wonder, for example, why Chuck Howley or Maxie Baughan (or Fortunato, for that matter) aren't on the 60s team instead of Morris. (Does Jackson belong on the 80s all-decade team over Anderson and Banks? Good question.) Not to mention that Jim Parker was named to the all-50s team as a guard even though he only played as a tackle during that decade -- according to pro-football-reference, Parker only played guard from 1962 to 1965 inclusive.

--if one values longevity, number of productive years, and ability to produce well on both good and bad teams, Jackson has a definite edge over Grimm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
Grimm played on perhaps the most celebrated offensive line in history and is the only member of that group in Canton. He is actually the only enshrinee to play in all three of Washington's Super Bowl victories. You'll probably disagree with this, but I believe Joe Jacoby should get in eventually, too. The offensive line was the constant on that team, which won with three different QBs, three different RBs, and a defense that was good but not dominant. Jackson, playing alongside Sam Mills and Pat Swilling, also played on a defense that was good but not dominant.
I'm not saying Grimm doesn't belong in, and I'm fine with him being elected. But whether Grimm or Jackson is the weakest of the new modern era enshrinees can be debated depending on what you value. Note further that for those who value the ability to stop the run highly, John Randle's election won't make them the least bit happy. As far as Joe Jacoby, he's arguably one of the best OTs from the 80s not in even though his postseason profile of 2/4/80s is one AP 1st team all pro selection thinner than Grimm's. Personally, I'd prefer to see a safety or two get in from this decade first, for starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
I'm not saying Jackson was unworthy -- he was probably just as good as Tippett -- but I don't believe he was more deserving than Robert Brazile, Kevin Greene, Chris Hanburger, and Chuck Howley.
I'm all for Greene getting voted in, and think he very much belongs. And I agree that Brazile, Hanburger, and Howley should be in. Problem is, these last three can now only get elected as Seniors, and the chances of them getting nominated now will likely be slim. Not that that's a good thing, of course. But I don't see that it's therefore better to not vote in Jackson or Greene unless Brazile, Howley, and Hanburger make it. That just makes the problem worse. No point creating another wrong to add to one already there, to my way of thinking.

Directly comparing Tippett to Jackson makes particularly good sense because they were contemporaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
It's not clear to me what separates Jackson from Maxie Baughan, Cornelius Bennett, Joe Fortunato, Isiah Robertson, and Andy Russell. I'm not convinced that he was better than Swilling. Jackson made 6 Pro Bowls, Swilling 5, basically a draw. Jackson has better stats (sacks, etc.). But Swilling was first-team all-pro twice, the 1991 DPOY. His peak was higher than Jackson's. I just don't see a lot of separation between them. To me, this is the pack, the guys who can go to Canton and it's not the end of the world, but who could just as easily be left out.
All but Bennett (1/5/90s) are Senior-eligible only -- same problem as above. Bennett vs. Jackson? My impression, maybe right and maybe not, is that Jackson had a longer if lower peak than Bennett, while Bennett had a shorter but higher peak than Jackson. Both had long careers, though my impression is that Jackson was better over a longer period of time. Jackson also played well on good and bad teams, while Bennett's best play coincides with the Bills Super Bowl appearance run and seems to drop off after that. Bennett of course is none too shabby a LB, maybe HoF worthy depending on how many LBs one wants.

Swilling wouldn't be the worst choice either (2/5/none), though his career is shorter than Jackson's (and Bennett's). Plus one can argue that Jackson excelled on worse Saints teams with minimal help as well as during times when the Saints were good. Swilling's best years on the Saints coincide fully with the period when there was more LB talent in Sam Mills and Vaughan Johnson as well as Jackson -- in short, he had more help.

One thing I do like about Jackson, and Tippett for that matter, is their reputations for all-around LB play. My understanding is that both were great in pass rush, very good against the run, and decent in pass coverage. That seems to be greatly valued by HoF voters, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
When you say "good candidates", do you mean players who deserve to get in, or just who are likely to get in? I'm not sure Jerome Bettis is either. I'm not sold on Parcells or Sapp, either, and I bet a lot of those guys won't be first-ballot. Bettis seems like a really nice guy, but he's absolutely not worthy of induction.
Likely to get in. My point here is that the field is going to get clogged in a hurry over the next three years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad O. View Post
I'd like to see Greene get in. Haley was a good player who wouldn't have a prayer if he didn't have 5 Super Bowl rings. He was in the right places at the right time.
I'd like to see Greene in as well and support his candidacy. Haley's 2/5/none postseason profile actually isn't far off that of Greene's 2/5/90s, Tippett's 2/5/80s, and Jackson's 0/6/none. I'm not fully sold on Haley, but am thinking it's not so easy to say he doesn't belong and the rest do.
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