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Old 02-04-2004, 07:35 PM   #16
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I agree with Brad that Brady needs to show longevity before he can be considered among the greats of all-time. That is an important aspect of greatness that need not be underestimated or overlooked. Being great a couple years is not as hard as being great consistently.
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:34 PM   #17
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Brad, I wasn't slighting Marino and Favre so much as indicating that egos get in the way. The search for those numbers you hold so dear gets in the way of making the safe pass.

Favre to a larger extent than I really recall from prime Marino eschews the safe pass under pressure, and always has. That's been a part of his mystique.

Marino definitely had a lot of things that would fit into Weis's system. He wouldn't take many sacks, but would he throw the safe pass instead of double coverage in order to keep his job? In Marino's he forced balls into too-tight-spaces and then blamed anybody on the field not named Dan Marino, when no one else was possibly to blame.

Such egoism shan't exist in Weis's system.

As for Weis's ever being a successful head coach, I, too, have doubts...

Dave
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Old 02-06-2004, 12:34 AM   #18
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The consensus that it's way to early to put Brady in the Great Quarterbacks canon of this thread is quite true, so I can't really add anything to the debate.

I would like to point out a couple of things, though.

That Brady has won two Super Bowls at his age is a pretty neat trick. I imagine that, even at this point, he only has to have an above-average rest-of-career to get his ticket punched to Canton. I think it's likely.

And to watch such a young guy in that position will be fun. I look forward to watching the rest of Brady's career unfold.
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Old 02-06-2004, 04:38 PM   #19
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Brady is nothing like Montana...

geez, let me paint it for you...
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:52 PM   #20
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I agree that Brady can have a mediocre rest of his career and still get to Canton. I just wonder if all this greatness talk will continue if he does not get to the promiseland again.

Hey, guys I am over 100 posts!!!!
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by ellisismyhero
Brady is nothing like Montana...

geez, let me paint it for you...
You must be imitating Woody Paige on ATH. :sleepy:
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Old 02-10-2004, 12:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MountaineerDave
Brad, I wasn't slighting Marino and Favre so much as indicating that egos get in the way. The search for those numbers you hold so dear gets in the way of making the safe pass.
How dare you cast doubt on the almighty stat?! :lol:
Yeah, I do pull out the numbers pretty often, and for a guy like Marino, especially, they're just make you -- or me, anyway -- go wow. And are you implying that Marino played for his QB rating (like Kurt Warner did before he finally got benched)? You'll never convince me of that. I've never seen a QB so good at knowing when to throw the ball away.
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Marino definitely had a lot of things that would fit into Weis's system. He wouldn't take many sacks, but would he throw the safe pass instead of double coverage in order to keep his job?
He wouldn't have to. Marino had twice the natural talent Brady does. Look, I think Tommy is a great player and he seems like a good person and he had a hell of a game in the Super Bowl and probably deserved the MVP and, and... well... did you see some of his passes in XXXVIII? Some of his completions were ugly, knocking out any shot at YAC. To steal one of your favorite expressions, Dave, I'll take Marino over Brady every day of the week and twice on Sundays. If that isn't what Weis wants, he should change his system if Marino's on the roster. Marino was a lot better as a QB than Weis' system is as an offense. That's not even open to debate.
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In Marino's he forced balls into too-tight-spaces and then blamed anybody on the field not named Dan Marino, when no one else was possibly to blame.
I don't remember hearing Marino complain about his line, receivers, or coaches, but even if he did, Dan certainly wasn't a "cancer on the team" kind of guy who's going to destroy chemistry when everything else is going well. He did have the same tendency that Favre and Manning do -- to try and win the game by themselves when things aren't going well. It sometimes pays off spectacularly and at least as often it fails spectacularly. It IS, as you kind of pointed out, part of what makes them great. I remember Frank Gifford's old quote, "All venturesome running backs fumble." The same is true of quarterbacks. All venturesome quarterbacks throw interceptions. Neil O'Donnell has by far the NFL's best career INT%, but great QBs take chances -- they make plays for their teams. I remember reading after last season that Mike Holmgren told Matt Hasselbeck, "Throw some interceptions." This year, he did, and he also had a 5.1 TD% and 7.5 yd/att and the Seahawks made the playoffs.

And for the record -- more numbers -- Marino's career INT% (3.0) compares favorably to those of John Elway (3.1), Randall Cunningham (3.1), Favre (3.2), Warren Moon (3.4), Phil Simms (3.4), Boomer Esiason (3.5), Jim Everett (3.6), Jim Kelly (3.7), Dave Krieg (3.7), and Dan Fouts (4.3). So he threw more picks than Montana and Young ... doesn't make him a turnover machine. The occasional pick on 3rd-and-10 is a small price to pay for all the first downs -- and touchdowns -- Marino created. And his legendary quick release (I've still never seen a faster) helped perhaps the least mobile QB in history set league records for fewest sacks. His playaction managed to fool people even though he never had a running game. He ran a great two-minute drill. There's not a coach in NFL history, I would bet, who wouldn't have liked to have Marino on his team in the 80s or early 90s.

I guess I just don't buy the idea that a great quarterback should try to fit into a certain system. When you have a talent like Marino or Favre or Manning, you build the system around the quarterback, not the other way around. If Weis couldn't win with those guys, he doesn't deserve his job.

===

And Kevin, what a guy has to do to be voted into the HOF and what he has to do to deserve it are sometimes two different things. Judging a player by a team of 40+ players is irresponsible, and Super Bowl wins are the most overrated statistic in all of pro football. Jim Plunkett gets nominated for the Hall every year, and if he'd been halfway decent between 1975-81, he'd probably be in. Does he deserve it because he at the end of his career he made it as a 'system QB' playing with Marcus Allen, Lyle Alzado, Cliff Branch, Todd Christensen, Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Mike Haynes, Ted Hendricks, Howie Long, Matt Millen, Art Shell, and Gene Upshaw?

Brady's better than Plunkett. I've been in his corner since Day 1. But Super Bowl wins are overblown as a method for measuring players, and even if Brady can ride to Canton on an above-average career from here out, to earn a bust in the Hall, he has to be elite. I mean, isn't that the idea? You make the HOF on ten great years, not two good games.
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Old 02-10-2004, 03:12 PM   #23
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Brad, I have to ask this: You never noticed Marino's whining after every incompletion, at anybody near him during games?

The world chalked it up to "competitiveness," but when TO whines to everyone on the field, we call him "selfish."

The difference? TO talks off the field, Marino at least had brains enough to keep his hates-the-guys-he-plays-with attitude ON the field, and didn't openly criticize anybody (except, I seem to recall him taking the occasional shot at his defense) after the game.

I won't argue any other comments you've made, and you should probably chalk some of my anti-Marino-tude to his having been a player at Pitt, a former citizen of the city of Pittsburgh, and his absolute and complete disdain for the folks who cheered for him during his high school and college careers. He's as much a villain in his hometown as he is a hero. That speaks ill of him as a person. His having been a Panther automagically makes him nearer to evil in my book.

His numbers make me go wow, but they don't erase everything I didn't like about him, either. Throw in the fact that he played for the dispicable Dolphins, who I was trained to hate growing up...

I have too much training to despise him to give him as much credit as you'd like. Sorry.

He's one of the all-time greats, no doubt about that. But, I'll take Joe and 4 rings to Marino's numbers, thanks.

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Old 02-10-2004, 03:31 PM   #24
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Brad. your comments sort of split off into two other interesting, if slightly off-topic, questions. The first is, inasmuch as the Patriots dominance this season and Super Bowl wins was a team effort, how much credit does Brady deserve? Certainly, you are not suggesting that Brady hitched a ride onto a championship team. Certainly, you are not comparing his to a more odious super bowl-winning quarterback such as Trent Dilfer.

And yet, how many other starting quarterbacks in the league would have likewise taken this team to the Super Bowl? 5? 10? 20? I'm honestly not sure, but at least right now, if every team had the exact same personnel except the quarterback, Brady's team, at very least, makes it beyond the wild-card round of the playoffs.

As far as meritorious vs. suspect reasons to get into the hall, on one hand, you are right. If the Hall were about winning Super Bowls, then teams, rather than individuals, would get inducted. So the Hall, at its heart, is about elite individuals. On the other hand, since one plays to game to win, that's the bottom line, don't we deserve to make at least a bow in the direction of multiple Super Bowl winners? I don't have the stats, but I'm pretty sure Brady is a much, much bigger factor in the Pats Super Bowl-winning seasons than Plunkett was in the Raider teams of '80 and '83. 'Course, you basically said so yourself.
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Old 02-10-2004, 03:41 PM   #25
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Kevin, I'll only add that Brady was the cog that kept the wheels rolling offensively this season, but in 2001, his role was MUCH more Dilfer-esque, as was his SB performance. The team had a running game and a defense that controlled the game.

This year, it was the passing game and the defense that put the Pats through. The running game, fair late in the season (December), was an afterthought to nonexistent early on.

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Old 02-10-2004, 04:27 PM   #26
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The Pat's system is geared for success same as a Ferrari is geared for speed. It does make a difference who is driving. Imagine Ryan Leaf guiding the Pats. Would they have won the SB? Would they have even made the playoffs?
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Old 02-11-2004, 07:34 AM   #27
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Threads like this are why I enjoy this board. Kevin and Dave, you've both raised some really good points.
Quote:
You never noticed Marino's whining after every incompletion, at anybody near him during games?
No, I didn't. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it's not something I remember. I do recall Marino's occasional complaints about his defense or running game, but not in the black-and-white terms today's guys -- especially this year's Raiders -- use, and not nearly as frequently. Marino never cut ties with his teammates in that "poison to team chemistry" kind of way.

And in fairness to the man, if you were arguably the greatest player ever but never had a better RB than Karim Abdul-Jabbar or a better WR than Mark Clayton, and never had an above-average defense until you were long past your prime, wouldn't you be bitter? When you heard people talking about needing a Super Bowl win to validate your career? When you think, I've been busting my ass for 15 years, I've done things no player has ever done, and people view it as a deficiency that I've played for the Dolphins all these years?

Marino never demanded a trade to an NFC team (the NFC won the Super Bowl in 14 of Marino's 17 years in the NFL; the others were the Raiders in 1983, his rookie season, and the Broncos in 1997 and 98, when Marino's career was almost over).

Put another way, how would you feel if, after 10 or 12 years at work, from then on, at least once a week, someone came up to you and asked why your company hadn't ever topped the Forbes 500 list, and implied that it was your fault? If I was constantly told that I had never really done my job well, I think I would get depressed and discouraged and really damn frustrated. I think Marino reacted the way any of us would.
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He's one of the all-time greats, no doubt about that. But, I'll take Joe and 4 rings to Marino's numbers, thanks.
And I'll take Marino's numbers over Brady's 2 rings. If you want to talk about Marino vs. Montana, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and probably another thread.

===

Quote:
inasmuch as the Patriots dominance this season and Super Bowl wins was a team effort, how much credit does Brady deserve? Certainly, you are not suggesting that Brady hitched a ride onto a championship team. Certainly, you are not comparing his to a more odious super bowl-winning quarterback such as Trent Dilfer.
You're right, I'm not doing that. I chose Brady as league MVP this year and I believe he was a vital part of the Pats' success. But if Steve McNair played for New England and Brady for Tennessee, I think McNair -- not Brady -- would have won the ring.
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And yet, how many other starting quarterbacks in the league would have likewise taken this team to the Super Bowl? 5? 10? 20?
10 or 20? No way. Maybe 5. Brady, obviously. McNair? I think so. Manning? He's not -- as Dave has pointed out -- a perfect fit for that system, but he's more accurate than Brady (67% vs 60%) and actually had a MUCH better INT% (1.8 vs 2.3). I think Manning could have played a safe game within New England's system and led the team to a Super Bowl win this year. After that, it's tough. Maybe McNabb or Delhomme. Maybe Brad Johnson. A healthy Chad Pennington? Brett Favre?

So let's say Brady, Manning, McNair, and one of the others -- I'm guessing McNabb, because I think making Pennington healthy is cheating, and Brock Huard might not have gotten the team back on track after that loss to Buffalo. That's four.

I think this is a really interesting -- if somewhat pointless -- question, especially if we apply it to Marino. What if John Riggins gets tackled on 4th-and-1 in Super Bowl XVII and the Dolphins win? Washington has the 27th pick of the draft next season, and they take Marino. Miami takes Darrell Green. Does Marino win rings in 1987 and 1991? Maybe in 84 and 86, too? A couple others, even?

What if Riggins does make his run, but Marino gets traded to a team without a great QB, like Washington or Chicago? Plug in Marino for Jim McMahon, Schroeder/Williams, and Mark Rypien -- surely he could have won with those teams. And Marino in 86 was leagues ahead of Phil Simms. This isn't just about Marino: you can't judge players by Super Bowl wins alone.

Quote:
the Hall, at its heart, is about elite individuals. On the other hand, since one plays to game to win, that's the bottom line, don't we deserve to make at least a bow in the direction of multiple Super Bowl winners?
Yes and no. Most of the stats we see are for the regular season. You look at how guys play during the postseason, too, but a few good games in the postseason shouldn't erase a career of mediocre regular seasons. That's why I don't think Plunkett -- who was awesome in the postseason -- or Troy Aikman belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Keivn, you mentioned Trent Dilfer, and he doesn't even get a tip of the cap from me for his ring. He was awful that whole season, and he wasn't even very good in the Super Bowl. The rings, by themselves, aren't a good judge of a player. If Bill Parcells had given Phil Simms his starting job back for Super Bowl XXV (and the Giants had still won), would that one game be the difference between Simms belonging in the Hall and not? NO.

One plays to game to win, and Marino carried the Dolphins into the playoffs almost single-handedly through much of his career. He helped his team win. He just didn't have the support he needed to go all the way.

New England used more than 40 players in Super Bowl XXXVIII. Brady was a key factor. But did he have a better season than Manning or McNair? From where I -- and the AP voters -- are sitting, no. Those other 40+ players helped him get a ring, and that shiny thing on his finger doesn't suddenly make his 2003 season better than Manning's or McNair's. For Brady to compare to Joe Montana, he has to be elite during the regular season, not just win a couple rings with great teams.

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I'm pretty sure Brady is a much, much bigger factor in the Pats Super Bowl-winning seasons than Plunkett was in the Raider teams of '80 and '83. 'Course, you basically said so yourself.
During this regular season, absolutely. During the postseason, it's close, but I'd give Brady the edge by a little. And, as Dave pointed out, during the 2001 regular season Brady probably wasn't any better than Plunkett. Of course, he was a rookie. Too early to judge the kid.

If you're still curious about my views on Super Bowl winners and the HOF, check out my response to Anthony's horrible proposal for a "Gallery of Champions", way back in June 2002.
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