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Old 05-28-2008, 11:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
But to answer your question, here are some Muslim groups who speak out against terrorism:

Free Muslims Coalition
Muslims Against Terrorism
The American Muslim
Islam for Today

And you questions about Muslim leaders speaking out against terrorism, here's a link to prominent Muslim leaders doing just that:

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism

All right, these groups claim to reject the means the terrorists are using. But do they reject the Islamofascist movement's goals? Maybe they believe that the same goals can somehow be achieved "non-violently"?




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Still want to destroy Islam?

No one wants to destroy Islam - does even the Jewish Defense League advocate taking over the entire Arab/Muslim world, leaving them with nothing? Yet that's exactly what the Muslims want to do to the Jews - and have been doing their level best to bring it about for the last 60 years.

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Old 05-29-2008, 08:50 AM   #32
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All right, these groups claim to reject the means the terrorists are using. But do they reject the Islamofascist movement's goals? Maybe they believe that the same goals can somehow be achieved "non-violently"?
Are you talking about the destruction of the Jewish people? How could that be achieved "non-violently?"

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No one wants to destroy Islam - does even the Jewish Defense League advocate taking over the entire Arab/Muslim world, leaving them with nothing? Yet that's exactly what the Muslims want to do to the Jews - and have been doing their level best to bring it about for the last 60 years.
Actually, McCain's "spiritual guide," is calling for the destruction of Islam.

"that's exactly what the Muslims want to do..."

There you go again... "the Muslims." I have a Muslim sitting next to me at work. Yesterday I went to lunch with him and one of our Jewish coworkers... when they split an order of cheese sticks it didn't seem like he wanted to destroy the Jews...

But that's okay, keep on placing sweeping generalizations on the most common religion in the world, with members in nearly every country and every race...

They're all the same...
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:30 AM   #33
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Are you talking about the destruction of the Jewish people? How could that be achieved "non-violently?"

That's not the only issue. What about Islamic sharia law, and their desire to see it enforced globally?


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Actually, McCain's "spiritual guide," is calling for the destruction of Islam.

"that's exactly what the Muslims want to do..."

There you go again... "the Muslims." I have a Muslim sitting next to me at work. Yesterday I went to lunch with him and one of our Jewish coworkers... when they split an order of cheese sticks it didn't seem like he wanted to destroy the Jews...

But that's okay, keep on placing sweeping generalizations on the most common religion in the world, with members in nearly every country and every race...

They're all the same...

And the man who married Barack Obama and his wife, and baptized their children, has stated that he believes the U.S. government created HIV to destroy black people (a week or two after that story came out, a presumably gay man had a letter to the editor published in the San Francisco Chronicle stating that he has personally lost about 20 friends to AIDS over the years, and that every one of them was white. Oops!).

And your father or grandfather might have had a Russian co-worker sitting next to him at work, and they may have gone out to lunch together. But even if that were the case, did that make Communism any less of a threat to our way of life, and the Cold War any less worth prosecuting?

So far as destroying Islam goes - was fascism "destroyed" at the end of World War II? Strange how I remember that both Spain and Portugal had fascist governments into the 1970s, and we didn't do anything to try and "destroy" them; not only that, but we openly supported fascist regimes in Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 1980s, and to this day we're allied with one in Colombia.

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Old 05-30-2008, 09:00 AM   #34
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That's not the only issue. What about Islamic sharia law, and their desire to see it enforced globally?
Again, you are convinced that ALL Muslims want sharia law enforced globally?

I find it amazing that you know the thought process of billions of people.

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So far as destroying Islam goes - was fascism "destroyed" at the end of World War II? Strange how I remember that both Spain and Portugal had fascist governments into the 1970s, and we didn't do anything to try and "destroy" them; not only that, but we openly supported fascist regimes in Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 1980s, and to this day we're allied with one in Colombia
Fascism and Islam aren't comparable. Fascism is a form of government. Islam is a faith.

Fascism is a form of government where the people are victims. Islam is a faith of choice.

Fascism can be defeated by removing a few leaders. Islam is not going away.

The term "islamofascist," (Bill O'Reilly) is simply misguided, misleading and an incorrect characterization...

There is no sense in which jihadists embrace fascist ideology as it was developed by Mussolini or anyone else who was associated with the term.

Moreover, the term "islamofascism" is used by people want to feel important, just a way of making us feel that we're the 'greatest generation' fighting another World War.

And finally, the most totalitarian Islamic regimes, in fact, are America's allies.

The current United States government isn't far from fascism, but the religion of Islam isn't fascist at all.

Some Muslims may be violent. Some Muslims may be terrorists. But the religion is just another religion.
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Old 05-30-2008, 04:53 PM   #35
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The current United States government isn't far from fascism, but the religion of Islam isn't fascist at all.

:lol:

Thanks for a great laugh, CK. You can't really believe that...
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Old 05-31-2008, 04:13 AM   #36
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I wasn't equating Islam with fascism; what I was trying to say is that once we eliminated any realistic threat that fascism posed to us, by defeating Hitler and Mussolini in World War II, we didn't proceed to go around trying to utterly destroy it root and branch, and wipe any remnant of it off the face of the earth.

The same thing can be said for Communism: Nearly 20 years after the Berlin Wall has fallen, aren't there still several communist countries in the world, including billion-plus-strong China - and have we invaded any of them like we did Iraq?

Once this is all over - and I personally predict it will take another 12-15 years before it is - the calls for prayer will still be emanating from minarets the world over every Friday, with billions of people heeding them; but what you won't hear are bombs going off on school buses or in skyscrapers, or calls for the destruction of Israel or any other country.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:34 AM   #37
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I wasn't equating Islam with fascism.
You have used the term "Islamofascist" several times.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:49 PM   #38
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Anthony, are you saying you think we will end terrorism in 12-15 years? Or that we will end Islamic terrorism?
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:21 AM   #39
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Anthony, are you saying you think we will end terrorism in 12-15 years? Or that we will end Islamic terrorism?

Well who else out there is practicing terrorism, on a global scale?

If it took us just under 45 years to defeat Communism in the First Cold War, then the Second Cold War - which actually started on "2/26" (the original World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993) - shouldn't take more than half that long, give or take a few years in either direction.

And just as the First Cold War ended without Sherman tanks rolling through Moscow or any nukes dropped, there's no reason why the Second Cold War cannot be concluded in similar fashion.
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:25 AM   #40
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Well who else out there is practicing terrorism, on a global scale?
Define terrorism...

I would argue that Israel and the United States have sponsored and carried out terrorism for decades.
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:48 AM   #41
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That's because you're a relativist.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:00 AM   #42
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That's because you're a relativist.


Or some may say I just not ethnocentric...

For some reason, it's only terrorism when Arabs/Muslims kill civilians.

A senior IDF (Israel Defense Forces) officer recently admitted: “Nobody can convince me we didn’t needlessly kill children.”

But that's not terrorism, that's "defense."

It's a double-standard, and that double-standard might be part of the reason that so many people want to kill westerners.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:24 AM   #43
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There may be some people out there living in fallout shelters who think the U.S. government (or Israel) are perfect and every action they undertake overseas is purely good, but they aren't here. I have read posts where Anthony is extremely critical of the U.S. government supporting corrupt foreign dictators, and personally I couldn't agree with him more.

What most relativism lacks is any sense of proportion. Have U.S. and Israeli forces killed civilians? Sometimes have they even recklessly done so? Probably. But you have to ask why they are doing that, the circumstances of it, etc. You look at Israel and you look at "Palestine", Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc....equating the one with the others is ridiculous. All you have to do is look at how each treats its own people to understand the fundamental natures of the regimes. And then you go a step further and compare the Israeli regime with terrorist organizations themselves whose ONLY purpose is to murder innocent civilians to advance their propoganda in support of a cause. This is like equating a guy who cheats on his girlfriend with a serial-killer. They both did bad things, but to say that the cheater cannot judge the actions of the serial-killer because he did "bad things" and is "bad" himself is unhelpful.

But this is all typical of our tendency to look inward with a self-hating eye and self-flagellate ourselves to the point where we are completely paralyzed and incapable of any action at all.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:39 AM   #44
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I'm not trying to equate the US to...say... Hamas.

I am answering Anthony's question - "Who else is practicing terrorism?"

When the US dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, was that terrorism? Sure, it can be argued that the bomb brought about the end of the war and saved more lives than it killed, but isn't it still terrorism?

My point is, we are so quick to call the enemy a "terrorist," and view our own actions as just. I think it is important to view the world through other lenses, other than red,white and blue... at least occassionally.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:18 AM   #45
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This just seems like wordplay now, though....

But I guess my point would be that already most people are capable of looking at U.S. actions outside a prism of red, white and blue. Look at the latest approval numbers for the Iraq war, for instance. I haven't seen them, but I would be willing to bet money they are not very high.

We should always reflect upon our actions and continually try to improve upon ourselves and our country...but when that process begins to paralyze us and lead to our degradation instead of our improvement, then it has gone too far in my opinion.
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