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Old 06-04-2008, 10:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart View Post
This just seems like wordplay now, though....

But I guess my point would be that already most people are capable of looking at U.S. actions outside a prism of red, white and blue. Look at the latest approval numbers for the Iraq war, for instance. I haven't seen them, but I would be willing to bet money they are not very high.

We should always reflect upon our actions and continually try to improve upon ourselves and our country...but when that process begins to paralyze us and lead to our degradation instead of our improvement, then it has gone too far in my opinion.
You have a good point, but can you provide an example of how the process begins to "paralyze us and lead to our degradation?"

I'm just not sure what you mean by that.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:49 AM   #47
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It is hard to come up with examples of this happening in America since we have not fallen out of power YET...but an example of this on a small scale it could be argued is the Vietnam war. Whether or not you believe we should have been there, when a people no longer looks at its nation as at least mostly just, then success in battle is impossible.

To get a better idea of this phenomenon, just look at Europe. After WWI Europe suffered a crisis of faith in effect. It lost all belief in the rightness of its institutions, government and people. The United States is on the same course as Europe, just further behind at the moment because it did not suffer to the same degree in the two world wars. It is now difficult to imagine a cause which would lead Europeans to take up arms. They have lost belief in everything, especially themselves. Could the current United States fight a battle like Antietam? Of course not. Could the Europe of today have made the same sacrifices as the Europe of the 1940s (which couldn't even make the same sacrifices as the Europe of the 1910s). It is very doubtful.

Now, before you say that this is all a good thing because war is bad and the more we avoid it the better, consider what happened before World War II in Britain and Europe. Their weariness with themselves is what prevented them from stoping the threat posed by Germany, and the war came BECAUSE of this.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." A people which do not even believe in themselves cannot possibly be vigilant in the defense of freedom or of anything else for that matter.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:12 AM   #48
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It is hard to come up with examples of this happening in America since we have not fallen out of power YET...but an example of this on a small scale it could be argued is the Vietnam war. Whether or not you believe we should have been there, when a people no longer looks at its nation as at least mostly just, then success in battle is impossible.
Hmmm... I know I wasn't alive during Vietnam, so some might say my opinion is pointless () but I was of the impression that we lost in Vietnman becuase we were fighting a more dedicated, and motivated group of nationalists, and because we underestimated the number of combatants and their willingness to fight.

In other words, blaming the anti-war movement for the failure in Vietnam is a bit of scapegoating - at least in my inexperienced, naive view .

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It lost all belief in the rightness of its institutions, government and people. The United States is on the same course as Europe, just further behind at the moment because it did not suffer to the same degree in the two world wars.
I think you probably have a good point, but I don't think the United States would be a good example of that. I see much more blind patriotism than I see over-criticism in this country.

I would also argue that blind faith patriotism is just as dangerous and "paralyzing" (if not more so) as over-critizing.

You cited the Iraq was as an example of our nation looking at situations through other lenses. Maybe you're right, but I believe people are just beginning to realize that it was a bad idea.

I don't know where I am going with this, so I will just stop now...
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:02 PM   #49
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart View Post
It is hard to come up with examples of this happening in America since we have not fallen out of power YET...but an example of this on a small scale it could be argued is the Vietnam war. Whether or not you believe we should have been there, when a people no longer looks at its nation as at least mostly just, then success in battle is impossible.

To get a better idea of this phenomenon, just look at Europe. After WWI Europe suffered a crisis of faith in effect. It lost all belief in the rightness of its institutions, government and people. The United States is on the same course as Europe, just further behind at the moment because it did not suffer to the same degree in the two world wars. It is now difficult to imagine a cause which would lead Europeans to take up arms. They have lost belief in everything, especially themselves. Could the current United States fight a battle like Antietam? Of course not. Could the Europe of today have made the same sacrifices as the Europe of the 1940s (which couldn't even make the same sacrifices as the Europe of the 1910s). It is very doubtful.

Now, before you say that this is all a good thing because war is bad and the more we avoid it the better, consider what happened before World War II in Britain and Europe. Their weariness with themselves is what prevented them from stoping the threat posed by Germany, and the war came BECAUSE of this.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." A people which do not even believe in themselves cannot possibly be vigilant in the defense of freedom or of anything else for that matter.
Actually, WWII happened because economic elitists used divide and conquer tactics under the guise of patriotism to wedge the masses into a frenzy as to maintain and bolster their power.

You know...just like how it's been going on since the beginning of time.

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Old 06-05-2008, 06:36 PM   #51
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I don't know if you would care to go into that in-depth, but I'd be very interested to see how you think that played out pre-WWII, since all the economic elite in Britain were falling over themselves to avoid the war.

I know that's how you think most wars started, but WWII is a bit different I think. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it, but if it's not worth it to you, that's cool too.
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart View Post
I don't know if you would care to go into that in-depth, but I'd be very interested to see how you think that played out pre-WWII, since all the economic elite in Britain were falling over themselves to avoid the war.

I know that's how you think most wars started, but WWII is a bit different I think. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it, but if it's not worth it to you, that's cool too.
Well, Hitler clearly rose to power after WWI cuz the Allies insisted on such harsh reparations for Germany. Hitler doesn't come to power if the poor masses don't give him the power. The guy was a failed artist with a cheesy mustache but if you can bait a few rich friends to put the blame on the Jews and sell it as truth...hell...go for it.

And the masses aren't so beleaguered if the war profiteers of WWI throw the poor folk a bone or two but again...round 'n round we go...where it stops...nobody knows!

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