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Old 08-06-2005, 02:21 PM   #1
Kashchei
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Default NCAA partially bans Indian mascots

The NCAA has enacted a ruling partially banning the use of Indian mascots in postseason college play. This is the biggest load of "politically correct" crap I've seen in a long time. You don't see the Native Americans complaining do you? Just the "feel good" groups of America.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/3864772
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Old 08-06-2005, 02:45 PM   #2
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There are a lot of people who are legitimately offended by some mascots (Illini comes to mind). But what strikes me as "politically correct crap" is the fact that the NCAA stated they were moving to ban racially/ethinically offensive imagery from its events, but in effect it will mean ANY imagery associated with Native Americans. "Warriors" or "Braves" or "Indians" don't have to be offensive depending on the context, but the NCAA clearly disagrees with me. The message here is that Native Americans should be ashamed of their culture if it's mentioned in any way in a sporting arena. And i think that's wrong.

Having been a Marquette Warriors/Golden Eagles/Gold/Golden Eagles fan over the years, i've heard this argument rage before. In Milwaukee, there were always SOME Native Americans who were offended by "Warriors" and others who were not. Where do you draw the line? Tough question, but I certainly don't think you draw the line where the NCAA did.
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Old 08-06-2005, 02:58 PM   #3
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This is one of the few areas where I fall on the conservative side of the fence. I'm Irish, and I'm certainly not offended by the Fightin' Irish, nor their cartoonish logo. I'm flattered that certain sports team wants to call themselves what I am, as all sports teams (with a few exceptions) want to project strength.

Also, the majority of Native Americans are not in favor of such measures....Eastern Michigan had to delay their name change from Hurons to Eagles because of protests AGAINST the change from the actual Huron Indians.
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Old 08-06-2005, 05:13 PM   #4
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The thing I found asinine is two of the schools affected by this semi-ban are the Utah Utes and Illinois Fighting Illini. Um, hey NCAA, are you going to ban the state names, too? 'Cause they're derived from those "offensive" tribal names! Idiots.
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Old 08-06-2005, 06:42 PM   #5
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Max Osceola, a member of the five-person Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, said the NCAA's ban is presumptuous. He said NCAA officials did not consult the tribe before issuing their ruling. The tribe passed a resolution in June supporting the school's use of the nickname and tribal images.

``We're not going to change our point of view,'' Osceola said. ``Our tribe has endorsed it, and we would hope another group would respect our wishes, but I guess the NCAA knows better for the Seminoles than the Seminoles do.''

Osceola drew a distinction between FSU's use of the tribe's name and the Washington Redskins. The latter is a name American Indians find offensive, Osceola said.

-The Tampa Tribune
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Old 08-06-2005, 10:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by themush
Max Osceola, a member of the five-person Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, said the NCAA's ban is presumptuous. He said NCAA officials did not consult the tribe before issuing their ruling. The tribe passed a resolution in June supporting the school's use of the nickname and tribal images.

``We're not going to change our point of view,'' Osceola said. ``Our tribe has endorsed it, and we would hope another group would respect our wishes, but I guess the NCAA knows better for the Seminoles than the Seminoles do.''

Osceola drew a distinction between FSU's use of the tribe's name and the Washington Redskins. The latter is a name American Indians find offensive, Osceola said.

-The Tampa Tribune
Now, there's an idea of where to draw the line. If the local tribal council(s) approve of the nickname and imagery, then it can stay. Otherwise not. Makes sense to me
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Old 08-06-2005, 11:24 PM   #7
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I too am Irish and am not offended by Notre Dame's use of the nickname Fighting Irish. However, if the NCAA is going to ban the use of Native American imagery, why does Notre Dame get off home free? What's the difference between "insulting" Native Americans by using tribal names and imagery and "insulting" Irish people with the use of Fighting Irish by Notre Dame? I guess this just further proves ND's god-like status with the NCAA.

I completely agree with Billy on this. Seems like a fair solution.
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:10 AM   #8
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I am 50 percent indian and I have no problem with the mascots at all. Also how is a U with a feather offensive that doesn't make sense. Why would Utah have to change there logo during the tourny.
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Old 08-07-2005, 01:50 AM   #9
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NO comparison between Notre Dame and the other schools with Native American monikers. Ummm...during the infancy of the university, people of Irish heritage attended the school ( the institution still has a large Irish student body), hence the name. When I went to South Bend last year, I read the history of the school (go figure for me). There are two stories surrounding the origin of the nickname. I can't recall them exactly from last November, but one origin stated that Northwestern fans ( no clue on the year...late 1890s or early 1900s) chanted "kill the Fighting Irish," or something similar during a game. The other legend has a Notre Dame player (all were Irish of course) trying to pump up his team during a game against Michigan (again late 1890s or early 1900s) telling his teammates something along the lines of "for being Irish, we sure aren't fighting." I may have the opponents switched, kinda fuzzy here, but that's the gist of it. Someone could probably look this up for sure, but I'm too lazy.

The nickname came from WITHIN the school and by people of Irish heritage. Whenever their nickname became official, I'd be willing to bet Irish suits sat in a boardroom (or church in this case) and decided the fate of the school. They were the "Fighting Irish" because THEY WERE IRISHMAN FIGHTING. The same cannot be said for ANY university using Native American monikers. I doubt Illinois had any Native Americans on their board when they came up with their nickname considering some bands of free natives were still fighting the U.S. military out west when these nicknames went down. And I'm pretty sure Native Americans on football teams were few and far between (alhtough Jim Thorpe was) during the early years of college football and even today (although a massive drop in population contributes there). Still, show me a roster of say...Illinois in 1905 and I'll find Irish, Italian, and English names before I find any Native Americans. So it can't be from having an abundance of one "heritage" like ND's case.

And let's not be so naive on the tribes endorsing schools like FSU here. I'm not even going to look it up, but let's get real folks. It's all about the $. I'm sure suits are making deals as we speak on both sides. And what choice do the Seminoles have anyway? They are just happy to get options. After all, last time they were in the spotlight like this, they were being herded to Oklahoma by the U.S. government to die like dogs (after being kicked out of Georgia). A select few within the clan (tribe is PIC now) are making the decisions for the group. When you sell a silly-looking white guy in a weird hat Manhattan island for $8 because you believe his culture is void of respect you definitely don't care what that same culture does hundreds of years later because they still aren't worthy of respect. Just as long as you BELIEVE you are coming in on the better side of the deal ( people can't own land through a buy/sell transaction then and the use of your people's name in the white culture for a few $ now). Just because your leader says something is ok doesn't mean there isn't room for valid dissent (see war in Iraq) within the population. Just because Bush shakes hands with the president of Vietnam a few weeks back doesn't mean SOME (and I hope a vast majority) of the people he represents can't agree with it due to THE PAST (these SOBs never gave us our guys back). If not for the dissenting now, how about the dissenting of the past?



190...

State names are derived from Native American WORDS. Illinois is French, not Native American. It is the French word for "land of the Illini." Some state names are of Native American origin, but not named after the tribe. Ohio is Iroquois for "good river." Indiana is the same as Illinois. It means "land of the Indians" given by Europeans (not sure which group here, kinda fuzzy). Utah is not the name of a tribe either. Not sure of the meaning behind the word (obviously a Native American word with some physical description of Utah). They are words DERIVED from Native American terms and early European labels, not named after tribes themselves. We don't have a state called "Seminole Nation."

EVERYONE...

I understand where you guys are coming from and I know no one here means to disrespect Native Americans, but the manner in which this issue is laid out and dealt with is sort of along the lines of the thinking down South when Jim Crow laws kept African-Americans from voting.

"Our ni**ers are happy. They don't need to vote." (were they REALLY happy?)

"The Native Americans don't care, why should we?" (do they REALLY not care?)

Groups with little power (politically, socially, economically) have historically interacted with the powers that be (the old white guys in suits) in a tongue in cheek manner.

Last edited by buckeyefan78; 08-07-2005 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:40 AM   #10
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The City College of San Francisco's teams are called the Dons. Originally, the mascot consisted of a Spanish priest wearing a brown robe with a cord tied around the waist (like the ones who founded the Spanish missions that can still be seen up and down the state of California), but about the late '80s-early '90s they briefly switched to a Don Corleone-type character, wearing a rumpled suit and a fedora, going up and down the sidelines yelling, "Let's give 'em an offer they can't refuse!"

Well I'm Italian-American, and I thought it was an absolute blast, but a lot of other (mostly older) Italians found the mascot offensive, and successfully pressured the college to withdraw it.

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Old 08-08-2005, 09:00 AM   #11
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For Buckeye:

1). The origin of a mascot is obviously not a factor in how offensive it is. Michael Jackson could start a team called the Child Molesters, and that doesn't make it not offensive.
2). If we, as non-natives, don't really have a place to say, "The Native Americans aren't really offended by this stuff, for the most part." Then YOU, as a non-native, have no place to say, "The Native Americans really actually are offended, or would be, but they're playing the game."
3). Why don't you write an open letter to the powers that be in the Seminole and Huron organizations and tell them that, although you have no specific insider knowledge of either situation in terms of their relationship with the previously mentioned school, you know that they are secretly against it, that they're selling out their tribe's true feelings (which you are privy to) on this matter for financial reasons, that people like Max Osceola above (see themush's post) are lying and full of s***, that you know how the world works, etc., etc.
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:47 AM   #12
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Here we go KB. Buckle up for some "adult" conversation.

The Seminole tribe in question is a "civilized" tribe who has had a partnership with FSU for over 30 years (I'll get to their $ transactions later). The Seminoles of Oklahoma (the ones who fought the U.S. government and refused partnership for $ and were sent west to die) are against the use of the mascot. Wow, I wonder why? One group in a financial relationship with the university for over 30 years is for it and the other not in bed with FSU is against it. Am I being a know- it- all in coming to the conclusion that there MIGHT BE some good old fashion capitalism influencing decisions that have ramificatoins beyond $? I know, if I need more education on the subject, I'll just sign up to attend FSU. I'll lie on my application and say I am a Seminole Indian ( FROM FLORIDA ONLY NOW, NO "UNCIVILIZED" SEMINOLES FROM OKLAHOMA) and get a scholarship through the "generous" program between Max Osceola's Seminole Council and the university. They got 3 Seminoles on a full ride right now (and FSU proudly boasts it). Wow, I'll learn the truth then, won't I KB? And if I need help, I'll just go on FSU's website which has a link to the Seminoles' site ( FLORIDA BRANCH ONLY!!!) I'll let you pick my major KB. If it is engineering, I'll say "hi" to the Seminoles for you as I do work on their reservations. Oh yeah, FSU engineers have had a long partnership with the maintenance and building of facilites on Seminole lands.

After graduation, I'll divorce my wife and marry a Seminole woman. We will send our kid to the new charter school for Seminoles being set up by the folks at FSU out of the goodness of their hearts. After school one day, we'll walk by the new Seminole buildings on campus built by the Seminoles themselves. So sweet of FSU to put together a project for the Seminoles to build facilities on their campus. Gosh, what nice guys they are.

You want me to continue KB? I tell ya what, why don't I just leave you with a quote by an FSU suit after the meeting...

"This (the vote of confidence by the Seminole Council) is fitting and proper, and really lays the groundwork for future shared initiaitives."

I wonder what that could mean? They are going to get together and smoke 'em peace pipe?

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Old 08-09-2005, 07:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
( FLORIDA BRANCH ONLY!!!)
The differences between the Florida/Oklahoma Seminole tribes are part of the reason why the Seminole name has significance to Florida State, though.

The character showed in those Indians staying in Florida and fighting rather than being forced out of their land is an honourable characteristic that the name is based. You can point out all you want about how it's just there to make $s, but every good sports team name makes $s. Which is why teams try to come up with names that are significant.

And are you seriously faulting the modern tribe for trying to prosper?
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:21 AM   #14
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I appreciate the background and maybe Max Osceola et al are full of it, and my third point is withdrawn. Doesn't say anything about my first two points. Go to an Indian Reservation, any tribe, and find out if the average people there are offended. You'll probably find that not only are they not offended, but alot of them (I have heard, take it for what you will) will reveal themselves to have Indians/Chiefs/Braves gear (not Redskins though). Whether they SHOULD be offended is something I'm sure you would school them on. That the white power structure has exploited minorities, including Natives, can be taken for granted. It's a different issue from the team name issue.
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Old 08-09-2005, 02:37 PM   #15
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Doug and KB...

Let me first say I don't blame the Seminoles of Florida for doing this. I am not faulting the tribe for trying to prosper Doug. NO WAY, NO HOW. The big thing in the "pact" is the scholarships, no doubt. You guys must know the state of Native Americans when it comes to education. Their high school dropout rates are astronomical. The Seminoles are no exception here. My point being this: what choice do they have? If you want to stay on your land and follow your traditional values you have to become a poker dealer?

Here is my line of thinking here...

1. Native Americans have traditionally dealt with whites in a peculiar way. Making treaties that failed to accept white customs (land ownership, importance of money and not trade) was the norm for many tribes in North America. Like I noted before, Manhattan Island (with an excellent harbor due to the Hudson and East Rivers) was sold for $8 (roughly, some historians squabble here). You don't need to work for a real estate company to know something didn't jive here. They operate under a different set of ideals.

2. The Seminoles have a right to support the NCAA decision or not support it. FSU must answer to the NCAA though.

3. Whether the official stance of the Seminole Council supports it or not doesn't mean all Seminoles support it (in Florida or Oklahoma). Do you like everything your leaders do in your name ( like I said, Bush shaking the president of Vietnam's hand was my hand too, but I cringe at the thought)? I'm also not naive to think that if the Seminoles of Oklahoma were seeing a few $ that they wouldn't be singing a different tune...possibly.

4. It is POSSIBLE that the deal was done for other reasons, most notably $. My grandparents came here from Italy. If Italians were treated the way Native Americans were in history by whites and the state of "my people" was what the Seminoles is today, would I let another culture (not worthy of my respect, let me make that clear, not often do movies get things right, but in Dances With Wolves, that idea of whites not being worthy of respect is pretty true) give me a chance to have my children live like human beings and not like dogs in return for naming their team the Florida State Waps or Mafia? Damn right I would. And this is why I wanted to make that clear in regards to Doug's question. If I had my whole culture taken away from, my life, I don't know what I would do. And I DON'T JUDGE any decisions made by a group that is faced with that.

5. In regards to Doug's assertion that the Seminoles that remain in Florida are the "brave ones." Both groups were brave Doug, that can't be denied. The 300 or so Seminoles that remained in Florida after the Third Seminole War did so out of luck. Bravery wasn't an issue on either side. They hid out in the swamps of western Florida (as late as the 1930s by some accounts, fascinating stuff) while the others got caught. What did you want those being shipped to Oklahoma to do? No food, water, clothes, or weapons? Have a white soldier shoot your family then you? Yeah, I guess that could be "brave" in some people's eyes, but let's get real here. Again, I'm not going to judge anything any of them did. You either died like an animal or lived under white control (as the Florida Seminoles eventually would).

6. KB...Yes, many Native Americans have been "Americanized." I'm not here to judge whether or not THEY should be offended. All I'm saying is that through forced "Americanization" (during the late 1800s and early 1900s, if you spoke your native tongue or wore traditional clothing in class, you would be "disciplined"), Native Americans have adapted to our way of life. Through the decline of their own culure, I'm sure they've freely adopted some of our own too (like your hats and such KB). Have Native Americans been accepting deals all these years because they "like us?" That's where I get a little suspicious. Yeah, I believe it is a money thing. I also believe it is their right to decide if they want it to be a money thing or not. I just hope others don't buy it so easily.

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