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Old 01-09-2005, 10:38 PM   #16
ESP0704
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I think Bama's guilty of misrepresenting Christianity, which ticks me off a little bit.

The main reason we don't have disasters with more than 150,000 deaths is that we have an infrastructure that helps (to an extent) keep us safe and gives us advance warning about natural disasters.

That, and we have a government that (much to the chagrin of small government advocates like Grover Norquist) takes action to enact protective regulations when disaster happens.

Believe me, if we had the same road-building, construction, regulatory and advance warning system as Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Bangladesh and eastern India did, the Florida hurricanes would have made the tsunami look like a picnic.

It really ticks me off when people claim that a disaster occurs because certain people have turned away from God, or that we have a "hedge of protection," to use Jerry Falwell's words, but God is taking it away because we're turning from him.

First off, we were never entitled to any hedge of protection because "The United States is not a Christian nation," to use George Washington's words.

Here's another explanation, that's far more likely than yours, Bama. Perhaps God allowed the tsunami to happen so He could speak to our hearts here in the wealthier countries and lead us to be more giving of our time, money and talent both here and overseas ...

But ultimately, much of God's work is beyond our comprehension -- it says so in the Bible.

And as for '88, we should take him at his word. I've been guilty of firing off responses to posts without reading them carefully, but, fortunately, I've never been burned the way '88 was.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:45 PM   #17
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See what I mean about '88?

I did it this time.

After re-reading your post, Bama, there was more that I had to respond to.

First, Russia (and I think you mean the Soviet Union, because Russia doesn't have a policy of official atheism, like the USSR did) suffered because of the hand of man -- Stalin, and Brezhnev, just to name two, and the tsars of the pre-communist era, who might have been even worse.

Nazi Germany was officially a Christian state, as were fascist Italy and Inquisition-era Spain.

I've compared God-fearing nations and non-God-fearing nations, and neither side comes off awfully well most of the time.

Another reason disasters, historically, have resulted in far lower casualty counts in the U.S., is because this country is a lot more sparsely populated than the nations of Southeast Asia and the surrounding islands.

More people in a relative small disaster area = more casualties
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:47 PM   #18
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There's no such thing as "God." Science works how it has always worked and it always goes in patterns. Whatever killed the dinosaurs will kill us all one day too.

US doesn't suffer from disaster in the thousands? 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Iraq has reached a grand now, many wars are disasterful and not all USA-provoked but still fight in, give me a break. Canada doesn't have a leader that preaches a "God" like Mr. Bush does and we don't have disasters either, so is one going to one day because we are such a mixture of cultures not all of which worship a or the same "God?" Give me a break what a load of b>||$h!). If any supernatural power is at work here it's called Mother Nature and to be preached to about her, goto Channel 4 Weather update at 6PM and watch those swirling white images on the screen.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:55 PM   #19
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Thats a disgrace, but I could see why you would see things like that, just don't buy into God, but you gotta look further I guess.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by lmanchur.
There's no such thing as "God." Science works how it has always worked and it always goes in patterns. Whatever killed the dinosaurs will kill us all one day too.

US doesn't suffer from disaster in the thousands? 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Iraq has reached a grand now, many wars are disasterful and not all USA-provoked but still fight in, give me a break. Canada doesn't have a leader that preaches a "God" like Mr. Bush does and we don't have disasters either, so is one going to one day because we are such a mixture of cultures not all of which worship a or the same "God?" Give me a break what a load of b>||$h!). If any supernatural power is at work here it's called Mother Nature and to be preached to about her, goto Channel 4 Weather update at 6PM and watch those swirling white images on the screen.
There is no God, IN YOUR OPINION. (Oh boy, here we go.) Fact is, you don't know, so don't say uncertainties as absolute fact. Secondly, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Iraq, none of those are natural disasters, they're totally unrelated.
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:00 PM   #21
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Marc:

Those of us who believe in God state it as fact, and we can't prove it either ...

I, for one, don't want to have to put a parenthetical "who exists, in my opinion," after every one of my references to God, so I'm willing to assume lmanchur's atheistic statement is a matter of opinion, or faith (or the lack thereof)
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:24 PM   #22
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I think Bama's viewpoint represents the majority in this nation, and to turn political, the viewpoint of those who elected Bush ( notice to my mainstream liberal friends Kevin and Dave on who, or what, you are dealing with).

According to Christianity ( can safely say Catholicism), death is a blessing....sooooooo...if we aren't dying, aren't we WORSE off?

Oh yeah, westerners don't follow their own religions, that's right. Carry on.
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Old 01-09-2005, 11:46 PM   #23
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I also think that calling the tsunami an act of God is inappropriate, especially coming from someone who's Christian. We believe in a loving God, not a destroyer.

Nobody knows why the tsunami happened, so there is no point in speculating. Everything happens for a reason. There's a bigger picture out there and a purpose for things, and it's not found in science.
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Old 01-10-2005, 12:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian
I also think that calling the tsunami an act of God is inappropriate, especially coming from someone who's Christian. We believe in a loving God, not a destroyer.
Agreed,


Volcanos have taken out civilizations "cities" Italy; diseases have taken out civilizations "Aztecs" Earthquakes have sunk cities in the Mediterranean and the world moves on. These were not acts of god, they happen because this plant is unstable. We like to think we are in control but if you think about it we are a rock spinning around in open space. I believe in the asteroid theory that killed off the dinosaurs, it can happen to us. I believe in God but I also think he lets things happen for a reason, he doesnít get involved because if our heart is right with him we will be ok.

I believe that life as we know it is our cocoon, we donít become who we are till we die then we find our true meaning. I hate to think that once we die that is the end..... nothing.
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Old 01-10-2005, 07:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78
I think Bama's viewpoint represents the majority in this nation, and to turn political, the viewpoint of those who elected Bush ( notice to my mainstream liberal friends Kevin and Dave on who, or what, you are dealing with).

According to Christianity ( can safely say Catholicism), death is a blessing....sooooooo...if we aren't dying, aren't we WORSE off?

Oh yeah, westerners don't follow their own religions, that's right. Carry on.
I agree, that Bama's original post represents a majority of fundamentalist conservative Christians, and I hope you're wrong it representing the majority in this nation, but I fear you're right.
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:46 PM   #26
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I agree Marc but he brought up the phrase "besides 9/11" so I had to add others to his list to prove him wrong.

But weather patterns are purley scientific and CAN be proved so no matter your beliefs look to the real facts people study and tell you about every day on Channel 6 @ 6 News
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Old 01-10-2005, 07:25 PM   #27
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Guys I'm not the sick one. Neither is God. He is Holy and must punish sin. When King David went against God's wishes and counted his people by a head count God killed 70,000.

He told King Saul to wipe out the Amalekites. Children, women and animals. All of them!

Read your Old Testament. God does use certain events to punish sins.

Look these countries like India worship cows and the Muslims believe in murdering innocent people and think they will go to heaven with 70 virgins if they are martyred. They are the sick ones. God must punish evildoers.

Do I deserve to be punished? Yes I do. But since I'm a Christian and I ask God to forgive me of my sins daily and plus I fear his Holy name God has been real good to me. But yes I deserve death myself. But God is merciful to those that love him and worship him. But yes some Christians do die horrible deaths, that is part of this evil world.

I'm not saying for sure God used this disaster to punish people. It just may be God's nature going through the motions. In other words certain things happen in nature. Earthquakes, floods and diseases. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but again read the Old Testament.
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Old 01-10-2005, 07:29 PM   #28
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Brian notes that "nobody knows why the tsunami happened." This is incorrect.

The tsunami occurred because of huge shift in the tectonic plates in the Indian Ocean. Plates that haven't moved in a while, but whose motion, while predictable insomuch as a geologist could have said on Dec 25, "Yeah, those things are going to move, but I don't know how much, and I don't know when."

When those plates moved, the resulting pressure created an enormous and powerful wave...

Anyway... I can hear the words that bama put into bits being spoken by my freakishly more and more fundamentalist grandfather, and in my grandfather's voice, they sound just as offensive, and the breath carrying the words smells just as putrid.

Brian's other point, about being a believer in a loving God, is one that resonates with me. If I were a believer (my faithlessness in Christianity is well-documented here), I would not believe in Gozer the Destructor.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that when people have to ask why, people are missing the point, are looking for an excuse to be discriminatory and exclusionary.

Fact of the matter is that natural occurrences happen everywhere, to everyone.

If/when California slides into the Pacific, the feeble minded will ask "what did we do to deserve this?"

The correct answer? Living in California, knowing that your house sits on an unstable fault line. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to do with God.

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Old 01-10-2005, 07:38 PM   #29
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Bama, I know you've had a rough life. I just want you to know that the hardships you have endured is punishment from God because you believe the wrong thing. You see, God is actually a Sufi. Kind of ironic, isn't it, since you think God is punishing the Asians for believing the wrong thing. Anyway, thanks for playing.
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:54 PM   #30
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what an ass your being, thats just as bad as what bama said, why do you treat all of the "lower posters" this way?
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