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Old 01-17-2003, 01:23 AM   #1
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Default STICK THIS IN YOUR VACUUM AND SMOKE IT!--huge majority of Americans pro-life.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030116-5901864.htm

Very interesting article if you have an opinion on this matter--few don't.

Maybe now Republican leaders will grow some balls and really try and move forward on some real pro-life initiatives.
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Old 01-17-2003, 01:25 AM   #2
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Guess I'm with the majority!
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:11 AM   #3
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I'm Pro Life all the way!
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Old 01-17-2003, 04:21 AM   #4
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There is more to the whole abortion issue than meets the eye - a lot more.

The reason why the big-business wing of the Republican Party has hitched its wagon to the pro-life star has absolutely nothing to do with God or morality and everything to do with economics: The wealthy interests want a high birth rate because it increases competition for jobs and therefore holds wages down. And contrary to popular belief, the "overclass" has no problem with high levels of immigration, and for essentially the same reason (the Wall Street Journal has even gone so far as to advocate a constitutional amendment consisting of five words: "There shall be open borders").

Back in 1965, the fact that the U.S. birth rate (per 1,000 population) had declined for the previous seven consecutive years (from 1958 through 1964; the streak would eventually reach eleven by 1968) so alarmed the Business Roundtable types that they formed a coalition with multicultural liberals to pass the most lax immigration laws in American history; they feared that once these "baby busters" entered the work force, the labor market would be so heavily tilted in favor of workers that the 1980s would become a new golden age of union activism - and so to head this off they allowed millions of people into this country who would not have been let in otherwise. And since the law included the abolition of quotas by continent of origin (the multiculturalists insisted upon this as a condition for their supporting the legislation), a majority of the post-1965 immigrants have come from outside Europe - triggering an ugly racial backlash on the part of the generation of American workers (now roughly in their mid-thirties to mid-forties) whose economic well-being has been hurt the most by the floodtide immigration (in that they ended up both getting paid less and being out of work more often).

So don't believe everything you read or hear - or more accurately, what you don't read or hear!
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Old 01-17-2003, 01:36 PM   #5
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How refreshing, yet another left wing conspiracy. lol

That is absolutely ridiculous, and 99.9999% of conservative citizens and leaders are pro-life because they feel it is morally right.
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:02 PM   #6
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I am strongly against these new initiatives.
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Old 01-17-2003, 05:42 PM   #7
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That's a rather vague question: " Are you in favor of restoring legal protection for unborn children?" I wonder what the results would be if you asked, "are you in favor of completely repealing women's access to abortion?"

"That is absolutely ridiculous, and 99.9999% of conservative citizens and leaders are pro-life because they feel it is morally right."

I'm sure that's a scientifically-derived statistic right there. It's also a specious assertion to make. I'd estimate 99.9999% of all politicans purport to believe whatever it is they believe because they feel it's politically expedient to do so. No too many angels in political office on any point in the politcal spectrum.

As far as abortion goes, I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other. Many people think the main issue is whether abortion is murder. Personally, I couldn't care less. I do think killing people once they are born is socially destructive, and I don't feel the same way about the unborn. However, it is socially destructive to reproduce as prolifically as our species is, and, once we hit the carrying capacity in terms of human population on this planet (8 billion), we are either going to have to restrict people's rights to reproduce or we're in for a world of hurt. And that hurt will hit the US, albeit not as much as the undeveloped world.
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Old 01-18-2003, 02:26 AM   #8
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First too Lee, I didn't see any new initiatives proposed, it was a poll. Maybe I missed something but I don't think so.

Now to Joe Texas, according to the world poplulation doomsday crowd, we should have already reached maximum capacity 20 years ago. This argument has been around for a while, and is still as frivilous and laughable as ever.

And you said you wonder what the results would be if the questions were different. But that question is pretty clear. If you are in favor of giving unborn children legal protection, then obviously, you would be against abortion.
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Old 01-18-2003, 03:52 AM   #9
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There are plenty of other "rights of the unborn" that are either only indirectly related to abortion, or not at all: For instance, what if a pregnant woman is assaulted (as during a robbery) and the injury results in her losing the unborn baby? Should the robber be charged with homicide for causing the miscarriage? Personally I would be all for that. And then there are cases where the father-to-be objects to the abortion and tries to stop it; my view on that is that the courts should decide the merits of each such case individually - and if the would-be father wins the case, the abortion is stopped.

What really burns me up about 99 per cent of the pro-lifers is that they are also totally in favor of cutting social services to the bone; once the baby is born, he/she is on his/her own. If you want to outlaw abortion, adopt the unborn child you're "saving," or at least advocate adequate social services to support the child - otherwise you're a stone-cold hypocrite!

And I have big problems with the way the question was posed in the link. If it was worded this way instead: "Do you think a woman should go to prison for life - or even get the death penalty (remember that the rallying cry of the pro-life crowd is "Abortion Is Murder") - for having an abortion?" I guarantee you that no more than 20 to 25 per cent of the respondents would have answered "Yes."
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Old 01-18-2003, 11:17 AM   #10
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I'm not about to jump to far into this conversation, I'd just like to add that the only thing 99.9999 percent of the people in this nation can agree on, is that Milli Vinilli will never have another hit single.

I'm all for overestimating to make a point, but I don't think its fair to generalize the beliefs of individuals in either group, espcially on a topic like this.
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Old 01-19-2003, 01:25 AM   #11
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I was just saying that it is ridiculous to say that conservatives are pro-life because it increases the number of people applying for a specific job, that is absurd.

And Anthony, when people answered that poll question, anyone with half a brain knew what they were being asked.
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Old 01-19-2003, 03:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky the Kid
I was just saying that it is ridiculous to say that conservatives are pro-life because it increases the number of people applying for a specific job, that is absurd.

And Anthony, when people answered that poll question, anyone with half a brain knew what they were being asked.


It was never my intention to say that the average person "on the street" who opposes abortion wants to help big business defeat labor unions; but the right-wing politicians who have latched onto the issue and the moneyed interests they represent - that is their real agenda.

Interestingly, the clergy in this country - especially those of the Catholic Church - has consistently opposed the conservatives on economic issues (while mostly supporting them on social issues); the National Conference of Catholic Bishops has condemned President Bush's recently-released stimulus package, and when Al Sharpton organized a march on Albany in the mid-'90s to protest Governor George Pataki's welfare reform proposals, the head of the (Catholic) Archdiocese of New York - the late John Cardinal O'Connor, who can hardly be characterized as a "liberal" - gave Sharpton's march the formal blessings of the church!
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Old 01-19-2003, 09:56 AM   #13
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Rick, what I meant was that this issue should be rested already. It was already debated in 20 or 30 years ago and I believe that women should have the choice.
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Old 01-19-2003, 03:28 PM   #14
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What, so once an issue is decided by a court it can never be open for debate again? Please.
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Old 01-19-2003, 06:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky the Kid
First too Lee, I didn't see any new initiatives proposed, it was a poll. Maybe I missed something but I don't think so.

Now to Joe Texas, according to the world poplulation doomsday crowd, we should have already reached maximum capacity 20 years ago. This argument has been around for a while, and is still as frivilous and laughable as ever.

And you said you wonder what the results would be if the questions were different. But that question is pretty clear. If you are in favor of giving unborn children legal protection, then obviously, you would be against abortion.
Who said the human carrying capacity of Earth was 4 billion? No credible scientists I know of. With the current state of technical achievement, and its disbursement across the planet, however, the consensus is 8 billion. Go read any introductory ecology textbook and come back when you're less ignorant.

My money will save me. I doubt your beliefs will save you.

And providing "legal protection" isn't the same as precluding abortion in all circumstances (first trimester, in cases of rape, etc). If you're going to askl a question, ask it. Don't beat around the bush unless you're trying to hedge your bets.

In the long run, whatever happens to the legal status of abortion in this country, the wealthy will be able have the operation done as needed, while the poor won't, meaning that the people least fit to have kids will be the ones forced to have them.

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