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Old 06-04-2003, 02:30 PM   #31
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How can I argue when I was wrong on Keyshawn and Owens Joey?...LOL. Damn, I'm losing my mind. I've been way off on things for about a week now on here.

I don't know about Harrison though Joey. Everytime I saw highlights this year of him, he just caught the ball and went for the sidelines. Fair enough, he catches everything you throw near him and has great speed, that I can't argue.
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Old 06-04-2003, 04:10 PM   #32
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Buckeye, your an Ohio State fan, I expect you to be wrong every so often....lol.

Harrison is certainly not an old school football player, who tries to get extra yardage by running folks over like Hines Ward will try to do. I mean I have great respect for both Harrison's and Ward's game. I love the way Ward goes all out on every play, and tries to get every inch he can.

Harrison would not just run out of bounds if it was 3rd down and 10 and he caught an eight yard pass....he would certainly take the hit on that situation to get the first down. But I can't say I blame him for going out of bounds after he already has the first down. I am sure Dungy would rather Harrison go out of bounds instead of taking a hit to get an extra yard or two. Harrison's frame is just not equiped to be taking all the hits that a Ward, Owens, or other physical receivers could take.

I do think that Harrison has been more consistent than any other wide receiver in the game over the last 4 seasons. Can anyone name me a wide receiver who has been more consistent than Harrison over the last 4 seasons? I know he has had the most receptions over the last 4 seasons as well.

Harrison is on pace to break tons of Colt's and NFL records.

Joey
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78
I could put Keyshawn in with Ward, not a stretch there. But Harrison, no way. I've grown to like Keyshawn more and more as he has improved his run blocking skills and his temper is now directed at winning instead of just youthfull antics. I liked it when he went nuts in the Bucs playoff game at the end of the first half cause Mooch didn't try a bomb. Harrison would have already been on the sidelines, his favorite place to go with or without the ball.
I don't think Keyshawn belongs in the top-10 ... he's not even a top-five WR. He lacks breakaway speed and to add insult to injury, he hasn't been very successful in the red zone. I'd never thought about the tight end angle with him before, that's a good point.
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Old 06-06-2003, 06:49 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marc
I don't think Keyshawn belongs in the top-10 ... he's not even a top-five WR. He lacks breakaway speed and to add insult to injury, he hasn't been very successful in the red zone. I'd never thought about the tight end angle with him before, that's a good point.
While I agree that Keyshawn isn't one of the ten best players in the NFL, I'm not sure I wouldn't rank him as one of the five best WRs.

Harrison and Owens are no-brainers, and then it's pretty much personal preference between the other top receivers. I think my top 5 would be those two, plus Moss, Ward, and Keyshawn, although a bunch of other guys are really close.

You're right, Marc, that Keyshawn lacks breakaway speed, but that's not really his role. He's supposed to go over the middle or on out routes and make first downs, not to stretch the field. Sure, he's a little one-dimensional, but so were Art Monk and Bob Hayes.

And I think it's a little unfair to say that "he hasn't been very successful in the red zone". Over his three seasons in Tampa the Bucs have had a total of only 55 passing touchdowns (19, 13, 23). In 2000, he had twice as many receiving TD (8) as the next closest guy. In 2001, when Keyshawn caught 106 balls but only had 1 TD, no other TB WR had more than one, either -- TE Dave Moore had 4, and Warrick Dunn had 3. Last season, KJ was second on the team, with 5 receiving TDs (McCardell had 6). Keyshawn's TD stats are more a function of the Tampa offense than of any deficiency on his part.

If you're not convinced yet, here's a comparison of Keyshawn's TD #s with the Jets vs. Wayne Chrebet during the same years, Chrebet over his career, Eric Moulds since his first 1000-yard season, and Isaac Bruce after his rookie year (94) and after his rookie year but before the Rams offense went crazy in 1999.

Player.........Years.......TD Rec.....TD/Yr
K.Johnson
....96-99........31............7.75
I.Bruce.........95-02........60...........7.50
E.Moulds.......98-02.......36............7.20
I.Bruce.........95-98........26...........6.50
W.Chrebet....95-02.......39............4.88
W.Chrebet....96-99.......17............4.25

The chart is organized by td/yr, as you probably figured out. No one ever accuses Bruce or Moulds of being soft in the red zone, and Keyshawn was almost twice a productive as Chrebet when they were both in NY.

Since he went to Tampa, he's averaged 84 catches and 1076 yards, drawn consistent double coverage as their only elite receiver, and continued to develop as a blocker -- the best blocking WR in the NFL right now, IMO. He's also consistent -- hasn't had less than 70 catches since he was a rookie. He's not Harrison, but I think his play leaves very little to be desired.

What can I say, I used to hate him but now I'm a fan.
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Old 06-06-2003, 10:29 AM   #35
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Brad good stuff, and thanks for those stats. I can remember Keyshawn being a red zone threat as a Jet.

Here is who I think the Top 10 wide receivers are for this season. Note I am not listing Top 10 receivers by career, but by what they have done recently and who I think are the best in the game today.

1. Marvin Harrison
2. Terrell Owens
3. Randy Moss
4. Hines Ward
5. Torry Holt
6. Keyshawn Johnson
7. Eric Moulds
8. Amani Toomer
9. Laveranues Coles
10. Marty Booker

Other noteables.....Jimmy Smith, Jerry Rice, Joe Horn, Issac Bruce, Rod Smith, Derrick Mason, Peerless Price, David Boston, and Plaxico Burress

A guy to watch out for that will be breaking out....Chad Johnson from the Bengals. Koren Robinson is one to look out for as well.

Joey
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Old 06-06-2003, 11:14 AM   #36
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Good list, Joey. Mine is pretty similar:

1] Marvin Harrison
2] Terrell Owens
3] Randy Moss
4] Keyshawn Johnson
5] Hines Ward
6] Eric Moulds
7] Joe Horn
8] Torry Holt
9] Rod Smith
10] Jimmy Smith

That list isn't meant to be a prediction for next season so much as a general list of who the best WRs over the last year or two have been.

I know you're a Titans fan, Joey, but I still really like that you've got Derrick Mason in there somewhere -- very underrated receiver who's just starting to get the recognition he deserves.

btw, I think Washington signed Chad Johnson this offseason. And you're right on about Koren Robinson -- I would be surprised if doesn't have a big year in '03.

Last edited by Brad O.; 06-06-2003 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 06-06-2003, 12:10 PM   #37
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Brad, Washington only signed Laveranues Coles and Patrick Johnson at WR. Cincy would be completely idiotic to let Chad Johnson go, for he was their best receiver a year ago with 69 receptions. Johnson will only be coming into his 3rd season from Oregon State.

Washington has Coles as their #1, Rod Gardner at #2, and then a fight for the other receiver spot between Taylor Jacobs(Florida rookie) McCants, and Patrick Johnson.

Derrick Mason was the 4th or 5th wide receiver the year the Titans went to the Super Bowl in 1999, and coming into the 2000 season he was still 4th on the depth chart. Then in 2000 Mason made the Pro Bowl as a return man, for he had the most yards combined in a single season in NFL history(that includes punt returns, and kick off returns). Over the last 2 seasons Mason has been the only bright spot for the Titans receiving core, as he has caught over 70 passes both seasons. Mason can go over the middle, go deep, catch the short routes, and never takes a play off. The Titan's return game has struggled because he has taken on the role of starting receiver though. I was more than surprised to see him become a very good receiver in the NFL.

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Old 06-07-2003, 12:52 AM   #38
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LOL any of you want to play fantasy football with me that way you can half your top 10s? Jonathan Ogden? Derrick Brooks? you have got to be kidding me.

1. Terrell Owens ( the best in the game today, period)
2. LaDainian Tomlinson ( has gotten better every year)
3. Rich Gannon (fun and Gun)
4. Michael Vick ( it's just not fair, threw it 70 yards with a flip of the wrist and is the fastest player in the NFL)
5. Randy Moss ( gained 15 pounds of muscle)
6. Marshall Faulk ( injured for better part of 6 games and still killed teams
7. Donovan McNabb ( not the whole team, but still one of the best players in the NFL)
8. Marvin Harrison ( 2nd best hands in the NFL today)
9. Patrick Surtain ( lets just say if you stole something from him you won't get away)
10. Jake Plummer ( I know this is crazy, and i kinda dis agree with it, but the dude brought Arizona to the playoffs.

Notables: Holmes, sorry dude i saw your X-Ray that got out looks like Bo Jackson 2.

Ray Lewis, this here is a man and if i didn't feel like giving myself a chance with Plummer you would be 10th.

Coles, yeah you're that damn good too bad your QB isn't this year.

Charles Woodson, best cover corner period.

Champ Bailey, second best.

Ronde Barber, best takle corner.
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Old 06-07-2003, 09:59 PM   #39
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Brad, very convincing, but I am not a Keyshawn fan. I still think he would be tough to put in my top-10. Comparing him to Wayne Chrebet doesn't do anything for me, either. How come you didn't take into account years '00-'02? I think he was better in the '90s. My top-10:

10. Joe Horn
9. David Boston
8. Jimmy Smith
7. Laveranues Coles
6. Eric Moulds
5. Hines Ward
4. Torry Holt
3. Terrell Owens
2. Randy Moss
1. Marvin Harrison
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Old 06-08-2003, 12:19 AM   #40
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What a frickin' embarassment.

Some of you guys have got to be dying to leave Jerry Rice off of your top ten receivers list.

Joe Horn is ahead of Jerry Rice?????

Buhwahahahahaha

Jimmy Smith???

Why????

Laveranues Coles???

Buhwahahahahaha

You're joking, right?

Tory Holt is #4 in the league and Jerry Rice does not make the top 10????

Holy unthinkable, Batman.

Rod Smith????

Based on WHAT????

Amani Toomer????

pfffft........

Oh, and why did Peerless Price get such little love from y'all??

Uhhh.........'cuz Joe Horn and Tory Holt are such hot sh*t???

LMAO

Amazing........
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Old 06-08-2003, 02:26 AM   #41
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Poptart, I understand your emotion since there has not been a receiver from the Raider Nation not on the list. Not to mention a Hall of Famer not on the list.

Jerry Rice, simply put, is the best receiver ever. That in itself in an understatement. I just feel the guys I listed in my top 10 for "this season" will have a better year. I am not saying Jerry Rice is not top 10 or top 5 material....hell you may even put him higher than that for this season. I just feel as though the receivers I listed in my top 10 have more to offer "right now" than Jerry Rice does.

Was Rice as effective as many of the receivers on some of our lists a season ago?...yes he was, and to some opinions he was better than the guys on some of our lists. Obviously, there is a huge difference of opinion here Poptart, and I can see where your coming from. To be honest with you, there is not much difference between being the #3 receiver in the league to being the #12 receiver in the league, for it is a very tight race. Maybe Rice is hands down a top 10 guy, and I have no problem with him being a top 10 guy. I still stick with my list of players in my top 10, who I feel will have a better season than Jerry will this season, and who I feel has a little more to offer than Jerry does.

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Old 06-08-2003, 07:46 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Brad, very convincing, but I am not a Keyshawn fan. I still think he would be tough to put in my top-10. Comparing him to Wayne Chrebet doesn't do anything for me, either. How come you didn't take into account years '00-'02?
I did: "Since he went to Tampa [in 2000], he's averaged 84 catches and 1076 yards, drawn consistent double coverage as their only elite receiver, and continued to develop as a blocker -- the best blocking WR in the NFL right now, IMO."

I left his Tampa numbers off the TD chart because I had an entire paragraph about them before and was trying to show that Keyshawn was an effective TD-scorer -- more effective than Isaac Bruce or Eric Moulds, even -- when he was in a half-decent offense. Chrebet's just on there to show that Keyshawn has always been the dominant receiver on his team.

poptart:

Joe Horn is ahead of Jerry Rice?????

Hands down. Last season, playing for the most pass-happy offense in history, Rice had 92 catches for 1211 yards and 7 TD, while seldom attracting double coverage because Brown and Porter are so good. Horn, who almost always got double-covered or at least by the opponent's best corner, had 89 catches for 1314 yards and 7 TD. He was better in 2000 and 2001, too. Rice is still a great receiver, but he's not the best any more.

Jimmy Smith??? Why????

No one here thinks Pro Bowls are the ultimate measure of a player, but Rice -- who is well-recognized and popular -- has been to two Pro Bowls since 1997. Smith, who plays in the tiny little market of Jacksonville, has been to five. He hasn't been held under 1000 yards since '95, and he hasn't had Young, Garcia, and Gannon throwing to him.

Tory Holt is #4 in the league and Jerry Rice does not make the top 10???? Holy unthinkable, Batman.

Holt's had at least 80 receptions and 1300 yards each of the last three years. He's fast, runs his routes well, and has good hands.

Rod Smith???? Based on WHAT????

I know you love the Raiders, but come on, they play Denver twice a year. You've got to know that Smith has the goods. In 2001 he led the NFL in catches and had 1343 receiving yards and 11 TDs. The year before he had 100 catches and more than 1600 receiving yards. Even last season, when Denver's offense stumbled, he caught 88 passes and topped 1000 yards. If that leaves him so low he deserves a capital "WHAT" and four question marks, Rice had better be playing like he did 10 years ago.

Oh, and why did Peerless Price get such little love from y'all??

Um, because he's only had one good season and wasn't the best receiver on his own team last year?


And Joey, you're right about Chad Johnson. I was thinking of Patrick Johnson.

Last edited by Brad O.; 06-08-2003 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 06-08-2003, 10:33 PM   #43
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Very selective interpretation of stats there, Brad.

Spin things around and one could make a claim that Rice's numbers SUFFERED by playing on a team that also tossed the ball around to names like Brown, Garner, Jolley, Porter, etc.

Those guys gobbled up a lot of potential Rice catches.

If he was the MAIN main target on a team with lesser weapons his numbers would have been far greater.

It all depends on how you choose to look at it.

What I DO know is that Jerry Rice was the top pass target on the top passing offense in the league, and that's some pretty SERIOUS stuff.

Rod Smith, Tory Holt, Joe Horn, Jimmy Smith are all high quality receivers. Don't get me wrong.

I just think Jerry Rice deserves a bit more love from some of y'all.

Whatever, it's just idle saloon type sports chatter anyway.
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:38 PM   #44
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10. Rich Gannon- Old man who gets the job done. He's a great quarterback.
9. Ray Lewis- When healthy the second most devastating defensive player in the league
8. Priest Holmes- Great player. What else do ya want? He makes things happen.
7. Brett Favre- Looked like an MVP in the start of 02, then dipped off. Not a top 5 player anymore, but I'll still take him down by 14 in the 4th.
6. Terrell Owens- Don't like him, but enjoy watching him play cause he can do it all.
5. Randy Moss- Like Owens, is a cancer, but lord don't deny you love watching him run past defenders.
4. Warren Sapp-Numbers have dipped, but only cause this guy gets doubled on every play. He makes plays happen, and is the main cog in the Tampa Bay ferocious D.
3. Marvin Harrrison- Best WR in the league. Not as strong as Owens, or as fast as Moss, but amazingly puts up better #'s. You do the math.
2. Peyton Manning- Best PASSING QB in the NFL. Can't run well. But hey, amazing accuracy, great arm strength, and is a natural Quarterback.
1. Marshall Faulk- He was injured last year. Not his fault. Before last season, look at his #'s. You see?
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Old 06-09-2003, 09:01 PM   #45
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Peyton Manning is the second best player in the league?????

I was under the impression that a QB must guide his team to a BIG win once a decade or so to be considered a great one.

Or......at least not crap a load in his trou' every damn time.

My bad.
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