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Old 06-10-2003, 09:57 AM   #46
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Welcome to the Boards Irishmen!

I think your top 10 is very reasonable, and I can't really argue with it. Poptart does make a good point about Manning though. There are tons of Manning bashers out there, and it is easy to bash a guy who throws as many interceptions as Manning has, not to mention he has never won a playoff game as of yet. Manning every season is in the top 5 in offensive output for Qbs, but he will continue to be bashed and not thought of top 10 wise because of his lack of success in the "big game."

Irishmen, your not the only person who thinks Manning is top 10 quality though, for I know the guy who wrote the article on the top 50 players in the NFL had Manning in his top 10 as well. I think a few other guys on this board had Manning in there too.

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Old 06-10-2003, 01:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by I OWN THIS
I think a few other guys on this board had Manning in there too.

Yeah, Alex had Manning as the #2 player in the league and Brad had him as the #3 player in the league, proving that numbskullery is an equal opportunity disease.

Alex is a mere grunt, but Brad (being a "staff" guy) is supposed to be a bit sharper than that.

Hell, the top receiver on the top passing offense in the league got dissed by him.

Go figure.

Pee Manning has never won jack-squat and looking at last year's QB ratings we see the names, Pennington, Bulger, Gannon, Holcomb, B. Johnson, and Green all ahead of him.

Was it his 19 INTs that impressed so damn much???

LMAO

Manning is not even the second or third best QB in the league, let alone the second or third best player overall.

Seriously now.

Gawd.......embarassment part II.
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Old 06-10-2003, 01:50 PM   #48
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The world must be coming to an end, cause I'm with poptart on this topic as well as the Sosa story.

Manning has a lot of pressure on him, more so then alot of other qb's. In last years Pitt-Indy Monday Nighter, I saw him make more audibles at the line then I've seen in my entire lifetime ( exaggerating, but you get the point). He needs a better system to lessen the pressure on him, cause it's getting to him. His performance has started to fall off, and in all reality, he was never at an elite status to begin with. In no particular order, I'd take Jeff Garcia, Brett Favre, Steve McNair, Tom Brady, Rich Gannon, Drew Bledsoe and Mike Vick over Manning off the top of my head, and there may be more.
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:22 PM   #49
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Peyton Manning the number two player in the league? Come on you're out of your mind. That's the most inane thing I've seen this week, and that includes that marriage debacle during the Stanley Cup Finals.

Amazing accuracy, great arm strength, great heart...oh wait, check that, the guy has never won a big game in his life. Most teams in the league would trade their entire offenses, besides QBs for the offense that Manning has.

5 years ago I just thought it was a lack of heart, now I think it's a lack of mental ability. He just doesn't have the knack for making big passes at critical junctures in games. Moments that seperate winning and losing. Manning throws untimely picks and racks up TDs when the offense is clicking at full speed.

You can look at numbers, you can look at ability stuff like arm strength and accuracy, but there is ALOT more that goes into picking a quarterback in this league, Manning lacks these attributes.

If I'm starting an Arena League team, I'm not taking Peyton Manning. This may sound harsh, but Manning doesn't make players arond him better. I hesistate to say he makes them worse, but I'm leaning in that direction. Manning is a damn joke.
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Old 06-11-2003, 04:58 AM   #50
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I'd bet the better part of my life savings that Peyton Manning will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer.


In a five-year career he has:

thrown for over 4000 yards four times
been top 3 in completions five times
been top 3 in passing yards five times
been top 5 in passing TDs five times
made three Pro Bowls
been All-Pro twice
gone 0-3 in playoff games

In those same five years, Brett Favre has:

thrown for over 4000 yards two times [-2]
been top 3 in completions three times [-2]
been top 3 in passing yards two times [-3]
been top 5 in passing TDs three times [-2]
made two Pro Bowls [-1]
been All-Pro twice
gone 1-3 in playoff games

In those same five years, Rich Gannon has:

thrown for over 4000 yards once [-3]
been top 3 in completions twice [-3]
been top 3 in passing yards once [-4]
been top 5 in passing TDs four times [-1]
made four Pro Bowls [+1]
been All-Pro twice
gone 4-3 in playoff games

Over those five seasons, Gannon's passer rating is 91.3, Manning's is 85.9, and Favre's is 83.7. Even if you want to argue circumstantial differences, and IMO Favre has had by far the least to work with, those three look pretty equal over the last five seasons, and that includes Peyton's rookie year, when he had a 71.2 passer rating and a career-low in passing yards.

Presumably less than halfway through his career, Manning has 4 of the Top 40 single-seasons for passing yards, ever. Only 27 guys have ever thrown for 4000 yards in a season, and Manning has done it four years in a row. The list of guys who have more is one name long: Marino. Warren Moon is the only other guy even tied, and his weren't all in a row or at the beginning of his career.

Last season, all Manning did was complete 66% of his passes (3rd in NFL), throw for 4200 yards (3rd in NFL), throw 27 TDs (t-2nd in NFL), and post an 88.8 passer rating (5th in NFL). He did all that without much of a running game, either (26th in NFL), and one of Manning's greatest strengths is his play-action ability. There is NO ONE in the NFL better than Manning at play-action and pump fakes. The guy is the god of fundamentals.

And while it's true that he's underperformed in the playoffs, he's only had three chances -- you don't judge a guy's career by only three games -- and he has played well in other clutch situations. Anyone else remember their Week 12 win against Denver last year? He actually had a bad game statistically (27-44, 229 yd, INT), but at the end of the game he led the Colts down the field for the win. You can't tell me this is a guy with no character.

You don't have to think he's the best QB in the league or anything, but to say the guy's no good is just bizarre.
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Old 06-11-2003, 09:53 AM   #51
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Let's not lose sight of what started this conversation about Manning, and that was YOU and a couple other folks that listed him as one of the top 2 or 3 players in the entire league.

I never said he was no good, but I would take a handful of QBs over him if I was going to select a QB for my team, and rating him as one of the very best players in the league is dumb, IMO.

Stats, stats, stats..........

Matt freaking Hasselbeck had the same QB rating as P. the great last year.
Kerry Collins was a 4,000 yd passer last year.
Brad Johnson had 22 TDs and only 6 picks.
Did Johnson play with a better supporting cast than Manning???
VERY debatable.

Brett Favre, Steve McNair, and Donovan McNabb had lower passer ratings than P. did,......but guess who I would take to play on my team?

Manning has had some moments, yes.
The Denver game last year WAS nails. On the other hand, how good was Denver, really?
Not a playoff team.

P. has never won a REALLY big game in his career and even going back to college, he has a track record of NOT coming through big in a big game.

Btw, why is Manning the only "genius" QB in the league who goes into a seizure standing under center before ultimately handing the ball to E. James for a 2 yd gain?

I tell ya, THAT looks like hell.
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Old 06-11-2003, 12:06 PM   #52
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Manning has gotten to a point where he overthinks the game, instead of just playing the game.

Poptart is right though. Manning never won a big game in college either, with very talented Tennessee teams. He went 0-4 against the Florida Gators, among other teams. Then the very year Manning leaves UT they beat Florida, FSU, and win the National Title with Tee Martin at Qb. I guess that could be called back luck on Manning's part, but most would say he could not finish the deal.

As much as I want to defend Manning as a Qb, I really can't beyond the fact that he puts up good stats. Of course he has had coaches who have never won anything, and more than sub par defenses while being with the Colts. All this being said though, Manning has to come through at some point and win based on his shear ability and talent.

Poptart alluded to Steve Mcnair, who took a fairly lousy Titan's team to the AFC Championship game last year. Manning's stats would blow Steve's out of the water, but Mcnair is a gamer and actually wins "some" big games while at the helm. Mcnair's defense was ranked lower than that of the Colts last year, plus the fact that Mcnair really does not have a good supporting offensive cast to help him. But the point is, the Titan's beat the Colts twice a season ago to wrap up the division.

I know Manning is smart, has the desire to win, and plays 100% at all times, but there is a huge missing ingredient in there somewhere, and I am not sure I can put my hands on what that ingredient is. Is Manning just doomed with bad luck, I seriously doubt it. I have to agree with Poptart, I would rather have a proven winner than a guy who can fill up a stat sheet and end up in the Hall of Fame.

So going on some of the top 10 listings in this thread, I guess it is how you interpret your top 10. Is it based on stats, stats and wins combined, freak of nature plays, consistency, or the play over a career? These top 10's have been more than interesting, including my crazy top 10 for this upcoming season.

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Old 06-11-2003, 01:05 PM   #53
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This topic is about top ten CURRENT NFL players, however Brad went back the last five years to compare Manning to Favre and Gannon, and showed the statistical edge that goes to Peyton. Fair enough.

However, comparing Manning to Bret Favre is grounds for a head check, IMO. Whether you want to go by all time ( which Favre makes Manning look like a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader) or the last five years ( which shows Manning operating in a system totally built around him in which his youth allows him to carry more of the load then Favre and a Colts team that has had much more overall then the Packers on offense), I would pick Favre over Manning in a second.

Add to the fact that Favre knows how to win, unlike Manning, and I would still take him today if I had to pick between the two in making a playoff run.

Favre, blindfolded, one arm cut off is at the level of Manning.
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Old 06-11-2003, 03:11 PM   #54
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Let's re-start this discussion by admitting that most of us are unlikely to change our minds. None of you is going to convince me that Donovan McNabb or Drew Bledsoe is better than Manning, and I'm probably not going to convince poptart that Manning's a top-5 player.

Starting from there... I see all your points. poptart showed that stats can be a slippery slope, but I think it's natural to put them out there. Statistics are the closest to "proof" that I can offer; I'm assuming we've all seen a good number of games, and stats can reinforce that or tip you off that maybe a guy is better than you thought. Since I can't post game film, I post stats, and in Manning's case I think they're pretty compelling. I mean, come on, NO ONE ELSE has ever had four consecutive 4000-yard seasons. (Marino probably would have if not for the '87 strike, but no one should be ashamed of Marino comparisons.)

In my defense, though, re: poptart's stats, Hasselbeck has played well for half a season and Collins for a whole season. If you want to argue that Brad Johnson was better than Manning last season, I think that's reasonable even though I disagree. But Manning, since his rookie season, has been one of the best in the game. Johnson, throughout his career, has just been an above-average quarterback. He's sure never been an All-Pro.

'78, I'll freely admit that Favre is a guy whose stats haven't reflected his talent for the last few years. For instance, in 2001 Favre had some nice numbers, but Kurt Warner had frickin incredible stats. I thought Favre had the better season. Last season, too, Favre carried a team that had very little other talent on offense. I prefer Manning right now, but I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks Favre is better. That's obviously a reasonable position.

I think your post was a little unfair, though: "This topic is about top ten CURRENT NFL players, however Brad went back the last five years"... Statistically, Manning had the edge last year, too (more yards, better rating). I included his whole 5-year career because I think consistency is important. I mean, as poptart pointed out, none of us is putting Hasselbeck or Collins on our top ten lists because they had one nice season.

And "the last five years ... shows Manning operating in a system totally built around him in which his youth allows him to carry more of the load then Favre and a Colts team that has had much more overall then the Packers on offense". Well, I won't deny that Manning has a better supporting cast than Favre, but how is Brett not "operating in a system totally built around him" and why would age affect how much of the load Favre or Manning can carry? If anything, I think Favre carries more of the load now than he did five years ago. And while we take it for granted that Manning is surrounded by good players, who other than Marvin Harrison is really there? Ahman Green and Charlie Garner, for instance, are probably better than Edgerrin James. Qadry Ismail did nothing last year. The Colts haven't had an all-pro offensive lineman since Manning joined the club, and their defense always sucks. That leaves Harrison, and James in '99 and '00. Still not too shabby, but it's not exactly Aikman or Bradshaw territory, either.

I think it's tough to definitively sort out the top QBs at any given time. When was the last time you could say so-and-so was definitely the top QB in the league and no one would argue with you? Maybe '84? 1958? Never? Even when Favre was so dominant from '94-'98 a guy wouldn't be nuts to say Steve Young.

I took about a minute and a half to make my list way back at the beginning of this thread, and I still think it's fairly good, but I don't know why I put Manning ahead of Rich Gannon, who I think was better last year and has been slightly better in the past as well. I could also allow for a difference of opinion on Favre or McNair, maybe even Garcia and McNabb, and Vick if you're projecting.

All that said, I think a lot of us forget that Manning has only been in the league for five years. It isn't fair to expect him to be Favre or Joe Montana yet. Vinny Testaverde and Steve Young did squat their first five years in the league, and Vinny eventually turned into a good quarterback and Young a Hall of Famer. Aikman got upset -- by 32 points, no less -- in just his second playoff game. Heck, Favre's lost 4 of his last 5 postseason games. (So nobody goes off the deep end, I AM NOT SAYING THAT PEYTON MANNING HAS HAD A BETTER CAREER THAN BRETT FAVRE. He obviously has not. Pointing this out to show that great players don't always bring their best.)

Anyway, you're free to think I've overstated how good Manning is. I'm free to disagree. We're probably closer together in opinion than it's sounded like. And as poptart pointed out earlier, "it's just idle saloon type sports chatter anyway. "
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Old 06-11-2003, 06:30 PM   #55
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In all seriousness, you've stated your case for Manning well throughout, Brad.

I think a lot of us would look at Peyton a whole lot differently if he were to lead Indy to a big playoff win or two this year.

Hmmmm........

Playful disagreements are what makes a place like this tick, IMO.

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Old 06-11-2003, 06:59 PM   #56
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poptart has it right Brad. It's not like I am trying to pounce on Manning for not being Favre, it's that 0-3 playoff record that just leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and proably poptarts too. I pretty much can't stand choking, or appearant choking, so this goes along those lines with Manning.

Favre is operating in a system and team built around him, but as years have gone by, players have been " plugged in" Brad to fill the holes. Peyton has Marvin and grant it, an injured James, for a long stretch now. Just makes it look like a good core of skilled position guys with not much to show for it. While I think Favre does carry more of the load then in the last five years, I think Peyton is doing it purely by youth, and not by plan. That's what I meant to get across. You look at Manning and the guy is like a mad scientist at the line, changing things constantly, and with much ferver. Favre's load is pretty much more along the lines of floor general and his free will to just go out there and fling it in there. Peyton has to be exhausted mentally and physically after a game from what I see.

Statistically, sure Manning is up there, and I think he's been a consistant and above average qb, however, his lack of a big game win, and his appearant " over thinking" of things just makes me wonder how far a guy who's got that much responsibility can go. Remember, Marino, especially later in his career, seemed as if he was the coach of the Dolphins, changing things, and being involved in every aspect of what was going on, and it did him nothing as well except make him tired and pissed off.
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Old 06-11-2003, 10:31 PM   #57
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Statistics only go so far in measuring the greatness of a player. I think being a leader, playing well in the clutch, and do other intangibles are just as important and you cannot measure those with stats.

In fantasy NBA, Shawn Marion was statistically one of the top players in the NBA, but where does he fit into your list of top overall players? Probably not in the top-20 or -30. Manning just lacks a couple components that guys like Favre have. He'll have to prove all of us skeptics wrong.
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Old 06-19-2003, 01:14 PM   #58
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I think Brett is better because he wins super bowls and then loses to the falcons and peyton manning just plain sux in the playoffs.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:49 PM   #59
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I notice that hardly anyone has mentioned Ricky Williams as one of the top players. He had an excellent year last year, and I think he is one of the best running backs in the league now. But I guess its and oppionated question...oh well, lol.
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:13 PM   #60
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VF78--Ricky showed last year that he has the talent to be one of the greats. He's gonna need to do it more than once, though. If he goes out and runs for another 1800 yards this coming year, more power to him AND he likely becomes a consensus #1 or #2 top RB, and a top 5 player in the league.

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