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Old 11-17-2008, 10:04 PM   #46
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Wasn't Lesnar a WWE wrestler before?
Yea but he won a division 1 NCAA wrestling championship his senior year of college. basically he graduated college and had 2 options, scrap by for 4 years while training for the olympics, or take the multi million contract the WWE offered him.

couture was a 4 time alternate on the us olympic wrestling squad...so the wreslting looked to be even, but i kinda though randy having 10 years of MMA experience would have more to offer everywhere else.

He's a legit athlete, but still....pretty impressive winning the title after 4 professional fights, I thought couture would be able to avoid getting caught standing....lesnars got a long road ahead to hold onto that belt.
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Old 11-27-2008, 05:01 PM   #47
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4cQHhXm_Jk

I just watched the video of Couture vs. Lesnar.

Lesnar seemed to just be too big and strong. It was a good fight though.
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:40 AM   #48
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In fact, Lesnar's emergence has caused so much wonder - and concern - in MMA circles that the idea of possibly spinning off some sort of "cruiserweight" division, at something like 230 pounds, from the present heavyweight class (which goes from >205 lbs. up to 265 in some organizations and has no upper weight limit in others) is making the rounds again.
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Old 11-30-2008, 09:23 PM   #49
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In fact, Lesnar's emergence has caused so much wonder - and concern - in MMA circles that the idea of possibly spinning off some sort of "cruiserweight" division, at something like 230 pounds, from the present heavyweight class (which goes from >205 lbs. up to 265 in some organizations and has no upper weight limit in others) is making the rounds again.
Yea just not enough talent between 205-265 to support 2 divisions though. Heavyweight is already the thinnest division, splitting it in half won't do it any favors.

Lesnar is just a rarity, 98% of the time when a 230lb HW fights a 265lb HW, the 230lb guy is faster and more agile. Lesnar just happens to be that 1 exception.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:04 PM   #50
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Yeah, I like the idea of splitting the heavyweight division so you don't have 220 vs 300, but in UFC, the heavyweight division has maybe three or four legit fighters once Couture retires. Heavyweight is the one weight class where it's not clear that UFC has the best talent, and unfortunately, I don't think they can afford to dilute it. As the sport continues to grow, though, I think more weight classes are an eventual must.

btw, thanks for the link, Running Man.

Also, I saw in another thread where Anthony called Lyoto Machida boring. Not to stir things up too much, but I think Machida is more interesting than, say, Rashad Evans.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:53 AM   #51
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Yeah, I like the idea of splitting the heavyweight division so you don't have 220 vs 300, but in UFC, the heavyweight division has maybe three or four legit fighters once Couture retires. Heavyweight is the one weight class where it's not clear that UFC has the best talent, and unfortunately, I don't think they can afford to dilute it. As the sport continues to grow, though, I think more weight classes are an eventual must.

btw, thanks for the link, Running Man.

Also, I saw in another thread where Anthony called Lyoto Machida boring. Not to stir things up too much, but I think Machida is more interesting than, say, Rashad Evans.


In the matter of weight classes, etc.: Believe me, if you build it, they'll come. Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport on the planet right now.

And I didn't know you followed it, Brad; and allow me to clarify: I was merely quoting a prevailing stereotype within the MMA fan base - and one I do not hold to, personally - with my reference to Lyoto Machida being the sport's counterpart to the Tennessee Titans. I have written numerous blogs on MySpace, some dating back two years or more, which leave no doubt as to my actual sentiments on this matter.
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:07 PM   #52
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In the matter of weight classes, etc.: Believe me, if you build it, they'll come. Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport on the planet right now.
Its a little different though with heavyweights. There just isn't alot of talent between 206-265 to make 2 divisions. This really won't change much in the future. The few guys who are athletic, 6'2"+, 240lbs+ play professional football, all the money and glory, without being punched in the face. Theres just alot more athletic talent below 205lbs then above it, because most people aren't 6'4" 250lbs. The average man is like 5'7"-5'10" 150-170lbs....do you wonder why lightweight(155) and welterweight (170lb) are the deepest, most talent filled divisions in the sport?

Plus most of the guys who would fight in a 206-230lb division, would at some point end up fighting in the 231-265 division. Lack of depth in both divisions means that those fighters would be bouncing between both divisions anyway just to get quality opposition, making it pointless and reducing the legitimacy of both titles.
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:18 PM   #53
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In the matter of weight classes, etc.: Believe me, if you build it, they'll come. Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport on the planet right now.
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Originally Posted by StealthElephant View Post
Its a little different though with heavyweights. There just isn't alot of talent between 206-265 to make 2 divisions. This really won't change much in the future. The few guys who are athletic, 6'2"+, 240lbs+ play professional football, all the money and glory, without being punched in the face ... Lack of depth in both divisions means that those fighters would be bouncing between both divisions anyway just to get quality opposition, making it pointless and reducing the legitimacy of both titles.
I'm of two minds about this, and I kind of agree with both of you. I think Anthony is right that if UFC created a 230-lb division, it could fill both 230 and 265. And I think you'd see competitive fights in both divisions, particularly 230. In fact, almost all the current UFC heavyweight contenders would probably go 230. The problem would be the 265 division, where Lesnar might be unchallenged or close to it. I think you'd see stand-up specialists, BJJ specialists, and mediocre mixed martial artists in the 265 division. I don't think there are any current UFC fighters who could challenge Lesnar in that weight class, unless someone who could fight at 230 wanted to move up. And as StealthElephant said, I think that would reduce the legitimacy of both titles.

The best 260-lb athletes in the world don't do MMA. The pay isn't great, the fame is still pretty limited, and you get beat up. I think this kind of split has to happen eventually, but I don't know that UFC can support a competitive 230-265 lb weight class right now.

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Originally Posted by Anthony
And I didn't know you followed it, Brad; and allow me to clarify: I was merely quoting a prevailing stereotype within the MMA fan base - and one I do not hold to, personally - with my reference to Lyoto Machida being the sport's counterpart to the Tennessee Titans. I have written numerous blogs on MySpace, some dating back two years or more, which leave no doubt as to my actual sentiments on this matter.
I've only been a fan for about a year -- as you said, this is a fast-growing sport. I don't shell out for the PPV events, but I catch UFC and WEC on free tv whenever I can. I'll be tuning in tonight for the WEC card (which is pretty unappealing, though I like Miguel Torres and Brian Bowles) and the TUF semis.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:04 AM   #54
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I'm of two minds about this, and I kind of agree with both of you. I think Anthony is right that if UFC created a 230-lb division, it could fill both 230 and 265. And I think you'd see competitive fights in both divisions, particularly 230. In fact, almost all the current UFC heavyweight contenders would probably go 230. The problem would be the 265 division, where Lesnar might be unchallenged or close to it. I think you'd see stand-up specialists, BJJ specialists, and mediocre mixed martial artists in the 265 division. I don't think there are any current UFC fighters who could challenge Lesnar in that weight class, unless someone who could fight at 230 wanted to move up. And as StealthElephant said, I think that would reduce the legitimacy of both titles.

The best 260-lb athletes in the world don't do MMA. The pay isn't great, the fame is still pretty limited, and you get beat up. I think this kind of split has to happen eventually, but I don't know that UFC can support a competitive 230-265 lb weight class right now.

There is yet another dimension to this issue, and that is the 265-pound limit most MMA organizations observe in the heavyweight division; some promotions - although conspicuously not the UFC - conceptually maintain a "super heavyweight" class for those over 265 lbs., but very few such fights actually take place, and the division seems to have no recognized champion anywhere.

Mixed martial arts is to be resoundingly commended for going out of its way to accomodate even the very smallest of fighters. But shouldn't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? And an over-230 division would have far more fighters available to compete in it than an over-265 division would - and without exceedingly de-populating the 230-lb. division, since in that case, many of the bigger 205-lb. fighters (Keith Jardine, Justin McElfresh, etc.) would be willing to move up and fight 230-pounders, but not 265-pounders. Furthermore, I am personally aware of the problems many of today's larger heavyweight fighters have of making the 265-pound limit (e.g., Dan Christison - of whom I am a personal friend and in constant contact with him and his wife; and also Brock Lesnar).



Quote:
I've only been a fan for about a year -- as you said, this is a fast-growing sport. I don't shell out for the PPV events, but I catch UFC and WEC on free tv whenever I can. I'll be tuning in tonight for the WEC card (which is pretty unappealing, though I like Miguel Torres and Brian Bowles) and the TUF semis.

You don't shell out for the PPVs? Well at the end of this month I'll be shelling out for a lot more than that!
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:59 PM   #55
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Mixed martial arts is to be resoundingly commended for going out of its way to accomodate even the very smallest of fighters. But shouldn't what's good for the goose be good for the gander? And an over-230 division would have far more fighters available to compete in it than an over-265 division would - and without exceedingly de-populating the 230-lb. division, since in that case, many of the bigger 205-lb. fighters (Keith Jardine, Justin McElfresh, etc.) would be willing to move up and fight 230-pounders, but not 265-pounders. Furthermore, I am personally aware of the problems many of today's larger heavyweight fighters have of making the 265-pound limit (e.g., Dan Christison - of whom I am a personal friend and in constant contact with him and his wife; and also Brock Lesnar).
Let me see if I'm getting this right: you're suggesting that the UFC replace the current heavyweight division (206+) with a 206-230 cruiserweight division and +230 heavyweight division? That's an interesting idea, though I don't know who's going to fight over 230 and is halfway legit.

I don't buy your argument about light heavyweights moving up. Why would someone like Jardine want to fight against heavier competition than he has to? At 205, he's a serious title contender going against high-profile competition. Unless he's getting fat, I don't see what he would have to gain by moving up.

And Justin McElfresh is just a tall punching bag. There isn't anyone at 205 in UFC who he would have a decent shot against, to say nothing of 230.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:44 PM   #56
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Just doesn't make sense because those 2 divisions does very little but eliminate a select few bigger HWs. Lesnar can't make 230, Tim Sylvia can't, Shane Carwin might not be able to, but realistically the reason theres so much talk of doing this is because of Lesnar. Almost all of the top HWs could make 230lb except Lesnar/Sylvia, which alot of people rag on because they're soo big. It would make the HW division pointless, cause if you can fight at 230 cruiserweight, what crusierweight is going to want to move up to HW and fight a guy thats 265lbs? There would be virtually no HWs if you put a 230lb division in. All the good heavies are between 230-255 pretty much, and anyone in that range can cut 20-25lbs and get down to 230. There would seriously be no one left in the HW division if you made a 230lb division except guys like lesnar/syliva.

If there is a change, I'd rather make LHW 200, cruiserweight 220, and HW 265. That will actually help people out. Guys who are too small to fight HW but cut alot to make 205 would be able to fight a cruiserweight, the small heavyweights could move to cruiserweight, and HW would retain virtually all its talent. There are just soo few guys who are 230lbs in HW right now, only a few could get down to 220lb.
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Old 12-06-2008, 08:14 AM   #57
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StealthElephant: But the current heavyweight division is 206-265, not "206+." So what do you do if you weigh 300? You're out of luck, I suppose - and that's not fair.

And Brad: Keith Jardine has a long history of competing as a heavyweight; his King of the Cage DVDs are really something to see. He also appeared as a heavyweight on Season 2 of The Ultimate Fighter, losing to you-know-who in the semifinals.

As for Justin McElfresh, he just gets careless at the worst possible moments - and they're aren't any "mulligans" in MMA. And the UFC doesn't have a "skyscraper" at 205 the way they do at 185 with Kendall Grove, so McElfresh would fill a very specific niche and create some interesting matchups.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:54 PM   #58
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StealthElephant: But the current heavyweight division is 206-265, not "206+." So what do you do if you weigh 300? You're out of luck, I suppose - and that's not fair.
they'res a super HW division, but nobody uses it, cause theres no one to fight in it.

i don't think you could get 10 SHW to fill that division if you tried. i mean you could find 300lb people, but not 10 good ones with any athletic talent.
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:56 PM   #59
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StealthElephant: But the current heavyweight division is 206-265, not "206+." So what do you do if you weigh 300? You're out of luck, I suppose - and that's not fair.
If we do see a cruiserweight division, I like Anthony's idea (if I've interpreted it correctly) of lifting the 265 cap for heavyweights. A 220-pound Randy Couture against Sylvia or Lesnar is scary enough, and no one wants to see him fight someone who weighs 325. But I think something like a 230+ division (as opposed to 230-265) makes sense.

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And Brad: Keith Jardine has a long history of competing as a heavyweight; his King of the Cage DVDs are really something to see. He also appeared as a heavyweight on Season 2 of The Ultimate Fighter, losing to you-know-who in the semifinals.
Haven't seen his King of the Cage stuff, though naturally I know about TUF2. But he makes 205 and is very competitive in that class. Why would he want to move up if he doesn't have to? There's no way Jardine would rather fight Couture, Mir, and Nogueira than Griffin, Evans, and Liddell.

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As for Justin McElfresh, he just gets careless at the worst possible moments - and they're aren't any "mulligans" in MMA. And the UFC doesn't have a "skyscraper" at 205 the way they do at 185 with Kendall Grove, so McElfresh would fill a very specific niche and create some interesting matchups.
The attraction of a "skyscraper" is the only reason this guy keeps getting fights. I haven't seen him in XFO, but he was totally out-classed in the WEC, which had a pretty unimpressive group of light heavyweights. McElfresh can not compete in the UFC, at any weight class.

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i don't think you could get 10 SHW to fill that division if you tried. i mean you could find 300lb people, but not 10 good ones with any athletic talent.
I agree with this. I think there are very few legit mixed martial artists who can't make 265. UFC can't support a compelling SHW division right now. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them lift the 265 cap on HW if/when we get a cruiserweight division. Don't think that'll be any time real soon, though.
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Old 12-07-2008, 03:42 AM   #60
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they'res a super HW division, but nobody uses it, cause theres no one to fight in it.

i don't think you could get 10 SHW to fill that division if you tried. i mean you could find 300lb people, but not 10 good ones with any athletic talent.

But that's precisely my point: It would be infinitely easier to fill if it were 231 pounds and up instead of 266 and up!

And who decides which fighters have - or do not have - "athletic talent"? The paying customers (who buy the tickets and the PPVs) - that's who; and I for one believe that it would be a success. Or if you want to look at it this way, H.L. Mencken once famously observed that no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public - although in this instance I don't think that would be involved.
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