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Old 09-05-2007, 12:13 AM   #1
catman
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Default Affirmative Action -- Does it Work?

According to a study by Richard Sander, UCLA Law School, it does not. It actually has resulted in fewer black lawyers than color-blind admission practices would have. Here is the story:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110010522
Here is a troubling portion of his study:
"Easily the most startling conclusion of his research: Mr. Sander calculated that there are fewer black attorneys today than there would have been if law schools had practiced color-blind admissions--about 7.9% fewer by his reckoning. He identified the culprit as the practice of admitting minority students to schools for which they are inadequately prepared. In essence, they have been "matched" to the wrong school."
Comments?
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:09 AM   #2
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This "study" is completely hypothetical...

"than there would have been if law schools had practiced color-blind admissions--about 7.9% fewer by his reckoning"

What are they using to determine the "if?" How do they have any idea how many black attorneys there would be without AA.

Moreover, this only looks at one aspect of AA, and it's impact on lawyers. In order to present an argument that suggests that AA is not working, you would need to provide overall numbers of employment throughout the country...

And please, no hypotheticals, I want real statistics.
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Old 09-05-2007, 12:51 PM   #3
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AA quotas are nothing more than diversity for the sake of diversity, which serves no purpose. this study does sound sketchy, but i still believe AA is a pointless endeavour.
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:56 PM   #4
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Affirmative action is racism itself. You don't hire people for their race anymore than you wouldn't hire someone for their race. A 100% fair situation is when you hire the most qualified candidate regardless of race.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
Affirmative action is racism itself. You don't hire people for their race anymore than you wouldn't hire someone for their race. A 100% fair situation is when you hire the most qualified candidate regardless of race.
Precisely, Marc. Those who favor racist programs like Affirmative Action simply do not want to accept this as a fact.
Fresh, no one in the legal world has challenged these numbers. They are pretty much right on. What you want is affirmation that your opinion is correct, which no one can prove.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
Affirmative action is racism itself. You don't hire people for their race anymore than you wouldn't hire someone for their race. A 100% fair situation is when you hire the most qualified candidate regardless of race.
Marc. How do you suggest that we prevent people from hiring only whites? Taking away affirmative action would create an atmosphere that allows employers to discriminate based on race. How do you suggest we prevent that?

Quote:
Precisely, Marc. Those who favor racist programs like Affirmative Action simply do not want to accept this as a fact.
Fresh, no one in the legal world has challenged these numbers. They are pretty much right on. What you want is affirmation that your opinion is correct, which no one can prove.
Catman, no one has challenge these numbers? Why would they? It's not like this document has been entered in as law. It is a study performed by one man, nothing more, nothing less.

My point is, it uses HYPOTHETICAL numbers. He simply makes up the number of black attorneys that would be around if it weren't for AA. My question is, "HOW DOES HE GET THESE NUMBERS?" There is no way to no for sure.

This is hardly a scientific study. It is a hypothetical study. Here, I'll do the same, prove me wrong.

By my "reckoning" there are 20% more black attorneys now than there would be if AA didn't exist.

You see my point?

I am not saying he is wrong or right, simply that there is no way to know for sure how many black attorneys there would be if AA never existed. It is impossible to extrapolate those kind of numbers.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:25 PM   #7
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Yes Fresh, I see your point. You'll go to any lengths to defend this racism, won't you?
You have yet to explain why racism counters past racism.
Eliminate racist programs and let the most qualified applicants get the jobs or seats in the professional schools. This study shows that in some cases even the "best laid plans" can go astray.
And by the way Fresh, no lawyers have disputed his study. Yours is flawed on its face as there is no basis whatsoever for your numbers. His are obtained by looking at graduation figures for all races from the various law schools.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but you are still wrong about racism like Affirmative Action.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:36 PM   #8
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Also Fresh, the way to assure that people don't hire only Whites is to remove all race and gender from applications. Let those with the best qualifications get the jobs.
Have all applications numbered with those numbers corresponding to another document (unseen by those in the hiring process). The applicant would keep the corresponding document and have contact via e-mail or telephone only after the most qualified people (regardless of minority status) are determined by merit. Then, and only then, would their minority status be discovered, period.
So Fresh, you see that your flawed system is not the best one available. You can continue to complain that racist programs like Affirmative Action are "good" but they are not as good as merit based hiring practices.
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Old 09-06-2007, 02:09 PM   #9
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One more thing Fresh. Your attitude is what is wrong with this country. You want to believe the worst will happen in business. I believe that we, as a society, have grown past racism in hiring practices. I have hired and fired many people as a manager and only wanted to see the best qualified applicants for the jobs I had to offer. I believe this is the prevailing sentiment in corporate America as well.
You appear to believe that the only reason anyone hires minority applicants is because of Affirmative Action. You are wrong.
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Old 09-06-2007, 02:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Also Fresh, the way to assure that people don't hire only Whites is to remove all race and gender from applications. Let those with the best qualifications get the jobs.
Have all applications numbered with those numbers corresponding to another document (unseen by those in the hiring process). The applicant would keep the corresponding document and have contact via e-mail or telephone only after the most qualified people (regardless of minority status) are determined by merit. Then, and only then, would their minority status be discovered, period.
So Fresh, you see that your flawed system is not the best one available. You can continue to complain that racist programs like Affirmative Action are "good" but they are not as good as merit based hiring practices.
I never said AA is the BEST system available. It is simply better than nothing. Fundamentally I agree with you that merit based hiring practices SHOULD be the way to go. Unfortunately I do not trust employers.

Quote:
One more thing Fresh. Your attitude is what is wrong with this country. You want to believe the worst will happen in business. I believe that we, as a society, have grown past racism in hiring practices. I have hired and fired many people as a manager and only wanted to see the best qualified applicants for the jobs I had to offer. I believe this is the prevailing sentiment in corporate America as well.
You appear to believe that the only reason anyone hires minority applicants is because of Affirmative Action. You are wrong.
Skeptism is not what is wrong with this country. Blind faith is what's wrong with this country. You may not be a racist, and that's great. Most employers are not racist. But there are some. I know people who are in charge of hiring, who are also racist. We need to guard against people like that.

I don't think that minorities are only hired because of AA, I am just not as naive as you. You seem to think that there are no racists left in America. You seem to think that everyone WILL hire based on merit. You are wrong. Most probably will hire based on merit, but many will not.

I have said it once I will say it again. Affirmative Action has helped minorities increase their level of income and societal status. Meanwhile, whites have not suffered as a result. Win-win is what they call that I believe.
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Old 09-06-2007, 04:40 PM   #11
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Sorry CK, you can't have it both ways here. Maybe most whites have not suffered as a result of affirmative action, but some have. This is clearly true if AA has caused employers to hire anyone based on their minority status.
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
Sorry CK, you can't have it both ways here. Maybe most whites have not suffered as a result of affirmative action, but some have. This is clearly true if AA has caused employers to hire anyone based on their minority status.
My bad, I wasn't clear enough. The white community hasn't suffered, and minority communities have advanced.

I truly feel bad for those white kids that had to go to Havard instead of Yale because of AA. That's just as bad as the racism blacks receive on a daily basis
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:02 AM   #13
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That's a misleading argument CK. Do you really think most whites go to either of those colleges? That's a very small percentage of the population, whatever ethnicity, that attends those schools.

I'd like to try and make the argument here a bit clearer. Are you ok with any AA programs that provide minorities with not equal, but greater opportunity than whites? In other words, is it ok to force employers, schools, etc to hire/admit based on race rather than qualifications?

There may be many AA programs that do nothing of the sort, and I think it's only those that do that are being argued against here. Whoever it may help, preferential treatment based on race is still a racist policy. Providing opportunity while still making the individual achieve any results themselves is different.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:21 AM   #14
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Fresh, I must say that you have closed your mind completely on this subject. Affirmative Action may have had a place when it was begun, but how much racism is enough?
Your assertion that companies will hire only Whites unless they are forced to do otherwise is a symptom of the bigger problem that the Democratic Party is still trying to pass off as the truth. This is the big lie I have been refering to. That minorities can only get ahead with Democratic Party help.
Let everyone get by on their own merits, not some subjective score that is the result of their minority status.
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:50 AM   #15
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What the reparations crowd - and affirmative action is an integral part of the reparations agenda - conveniently forgets is that white America has already been drastically punished for its slavery-related sins, in the form of it setting off a bloody civil war that had a per-capita casualty rate eight times that of World War II; not only that, but the South (where slavery occurred) emerged devastated structurally, and devastated economically for more than a century.

We definitely incurred a moral debt for what we did - but we have paid that debt, at an interest rate that would have made John Gotti blush.
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