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Old 01-25-2006, 12:53 AM   #46
Shawndo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boston_aloha
I don't think he'll never be put on the same pedestal as Jordan (even he is a great player) due to his personal life.
don't think he'll never...... hmmmm... so you do think he will?
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Old 01-25-2006, 12:58 AM   #47
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Sorry... meant "ever"
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:03 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
To be fair to Kobe, it's not like MJ has led a perfect life. If I'm not mistaken, he also cheated on his wife. Also he has a well-documented gambling habit.
I know, Jordan had the gambling problem, he was no saint by any means... Everyone has personal issues. But I think him paying off (or taking care of it out of court... whatever you wanna call it) that girl in the rape case will forever taint his name. I don't really keep up w/ Kobe, but I know he lost all his endorsments... has he been in any commercials since? Or gotten any endorsements back?
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:06 AM   #49
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Wrong Shawn.

The Lakers weren't fortunate to assemble that crew. They did it through working harder and better than the other teams. You establish a mindset and a value system to work under and if you are true to it, you will not only be honest to yourself, but you will set yourself up to achieve. "You win with people"- Woody Hayes. There's a reason why no matter where you put guys like Bill Parcels, Jerry West, Pat Riley, Sparky Anderson, Hubie Brown, Larry Bird, or more recently someone like Nick Saban with the Dolphins...somehow things overall get done. The Lakers organization as a whole (Kobe included) don't understand that. That's why they will never win it all and more importantly by my standards, fail to follow the right path to get there.

Man, I've been hangin' out down the hall at philosophy class too much.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:13 AM   #50
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I understand your logic, Buckeye, but I still don't think it's fair to the current organization to hold them to the same standards just because the team name is the same. These are different people now. That's like hating the Chicago Bulls team now because none of them are as good as Jordan.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:16 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boston_aloha
I don't really keep up w/ Kobe, but I know he lost all his endorsments... has he been in any commercials since? Or gotten any endorsements back?
Nike never dropped him, and are finally promoting him again (new shoe and such), but I doubt Sprite or McDonalds, etc will be interested again, but hey- if these high scoring games continue, and he keeps walking around with his kid on his shoulders, you never know
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:30 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noon
Well Shawn, let's not kid ourselves. Jordan was a jerk to his teammates. A huge jerk. I think the number of stories about fights between him and his teammates that were never made public would be staggering.

If Jordan had the talent of a run of the mill all-star, and not of one of the top-3 players of all time, he would have bounced from team to team because no one would have been able to stand him.

But Jordan made his teammates better, and no matter what you say about Kobe and how talented he is, he does not make his teammates better. Both players are/were selfish, mostly because both players realized that they had to be. But Jordan's competitive streak made him defer when it was necessary and everyone of his teammates were better players when Jordan was on the floor.

Kobe, it seems, doesn't have the trust in his teammates or doesn't care as long as he gets his shots in. When he retires, he will be remembered as a great player, there's no doubt about that. But he will never be put on the same level as Jordan.
Statistically Jordan was far superior to Kobe. For his career MJ averaged more rebounds, steals, blocks and assists per game than Bryant. But those statistics are partly attributed to the play of his teammates. And of course, Jordan had a much better team than Kobe has right now.

So one objective way to compare MJ and Kobe is to look at their shooting percentages. Kobe's career shooting % is 45% (45.2%). Jordan's is 50% (49.7%, and it would be higher if not for his Wizards days). For their careers Jordan is a 4.5% better shooter. Doesn't sound like much, but the difference between MJ and Bryant for their careers is the same Bryant (45.2%) and Jalen Rose (40.7%). That's a big difference. Also, during the playoffs, MJ's shooting % only drops 1%, while Kobe drops 2% (and that's with playing with Shaq).

But going back to the "making teammates better" notion... Kobe has to defer to teammates. That being said, Kobe wasn't selfish at during the Toronto game. So what if he only had 2 assists? The Raptors had a silly putty defense, so Kobe exploited it. Most importantly, Kobe brought his team back and eventually won them the game. That game was an instance where he should solely be applauded for his play.

Contrast that with the Kings game last week. Some of the Lakers (most notably Odom) were playing poorly, so what did Kobe decide to do? As usual, he tried to single-handedly win the game. Unfortunately for LA, that meant Kobe attempting turnaround 3-pointers while being double-teamed, with ample time on the shot clock. Watch that game and see why people criticize Kobe so freely. Kobe rarely makes such poor decisions, but he does make them. Whenever Jordan went out of his way to score, he never resorted to terrible shot selection. Tough shots, yes, but never the awful shots that Kobe puts up on occasion.

EDIT: By the way, I'd like to retract that Tracy McGrady-Kobe-MJ comparision. T-Mac's game has regressed so much in the last year, it's almost sad. It was insulting to Kobe to compare him to McGrady. Now that I think about it, I guess T-Mac has never done in his career to begin with. He's never won a scoring title (that I know of), or even won a playoff series (except that one against Detroit... oh wait, you have to win FOUR games). All T-Mac really has is that cool commercial where he grows wings, and that sick half-minute against the Spurs.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:41 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
No, he probably would've won two. How many championships would the Lakers had with only Kobe? Probably none.
Probably 2? At best I'd give you one...which would be '99-'00...easily Shaq's best season of his career, and even then would a Kobe-less Lakers squad have gotten past the Blazers that year?
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Old 01-25-2006, 03:15 PM   #54
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I still find the most amazing thing about Kobe is what Bill Simmons in his article. Kobe never even did the classic "I'd like to thank my teammates" Its true they pretty much forced him into taking all the shots, but still throw them a bone.
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Old 01-25-2006, 04:37 PM   #55
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Well... then again what does he say? "I'd like to thank my teammates for being so bad that I alone had to take almost every shot. It was their poor jumpshots and fundlementals that allowed me to take 48 shots in game."
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Old 01-25-2006, 05:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
Statistically Jordan was far superior to Kobe. For his career MJ averaged more rebounds, steals, blocks and assists per game than Bryant. But those statistics are partly attributed to the play of his teammates. And of course, Jordan had a much better team than Kobe has right now.

So one objective way to compare MJ and Kobe is to look at their shooting percentages. Kobe's career shooting % is 45% (45.2%). Jordan's is 50% (49.7%, and it would be higher if not for his Wizards days). For their careers Jordan is a 4.5% better shooter. Doesn't sound like much, but the difference between MJ and Bryant for their careers is the same Bryant (45.2%) and Jalen Rose (40.7%). That's a big difference. Also, during the playoffs, MJ's shooting % only drops 1%, while Kobe drops 2% (and that's with playing with Shaq).
An interesting question regarding this is would Jordan have been as successful a player if he were to play by today's NBA rules? That means far less man-to-man and much more zone defense. Dealing with constant-double and triple teams could've exploited his poor outside shooting ability early in his career in my opinion...and certainly in today's game he wouldn't have Craig Ehlo guarding him. I don't think his numbers overall would drop off that much, but it would certainly put him more in line with Kobe's stats.
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Old 01-25-2006, 07:26 PM   #57
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Yea I agree that today's zone defenses would probably put a small dent in Jordan's scoring prowess.
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Old 01-25-2006, 07:38 PM   #58
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Check out Scottie Pippen's blog Can't Compare Kobe and MJ

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Old 01-25-2006, 08:08 PM   #59
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If Scottie Pippen thinks that defenses are more physical on Jordan than they are on Kobe, then he owes it to the public to stop as an analyst. I know MJ is his boy and all, but come on. That is just simply not true and blatantly obvious. There are other comparisons to make the argument that MJ is better, you don't need to just make stuff up.

On top of that, Kobe doesn't have the officials in his pocket the way Jordan did. You CAN play Kobe physical and get away with it. You couldn't play Jordan as physical as you can play Kobe. Kobe has less leeway in running through a screen and most importantly...pushing off to get a shot. The most obvious of which being the 1998 Finals when that would have been an offensive foul against anyone else. He got that a lot, Bryant just doesn't. There's no Michael Jordan exception for Kobe Bryant.

That's one of the things that impresses me the most about Bryant. He has faced tougher defense, so sure, his points per game are going to be lower than MJ, but there's also some reasoning behind that.

**** these players who toss out the "my generation had this" card like Scottie so obviously did. It's so damn annoying.

Yes, in Scottie's generation the defense as a whole was better than the NBA as a whole right now. That doesn't mean it AUTOMATICALLY transfers over in every situation.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:04 PM   #60
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You have a point, Doug, but then again, Pippen was actually out there playing, and you, uh ... so I think his argument has a little more backing. So all I'm saying is that while I agree Pippen is biased, don't dismiss him like he doesn't know what he's talking about. He was out there winning championships and knows what it was like, certainly better than any of us.

I think the comment that Kobe is closer to McGrady than Jordan is absurd. As El Jefe pointed out, Kobe's three rings automatically propel him way above McGrady. Kobe is so far about McGrady, it's not even funny. Kobe is very durable, unlike McGrady and his 80-year-old back problems.

In many ways, Kobe's 81 points is more impressive than Wilt's. As mentioned earlier, Wilt scored so much because he was physically bigger than everyone else. Kobe is average-sized and did this, perhaps making it the best single-game performance in NBA history. I mean he did this with pure skill and talent, not because he was taller.
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