A Government for the People

[CKFresh]

I believe that your cynical view of government in general doesn't allow to recognize the differences between parties. They are both bad, so it doesn't matter.

Well it does matter. As I pointed out on another thread, people do better under progressive/liberal/democratic leadership.

Those same people you are talking about live better lives when we elect the lesser of two evils.

So all of your intellectual indifference is fine for this message board, but when it comes down to actually improving the lives of people in the gutter, your vote does nothing.

I do recognize the plight of the disadvantaged, that's why I spend time helping them. I don't have any money, but I give what I do have to certain charities.

I'm not trying to make this an argument of how "good" I am, that's not the point.

I vote Democrat because it helps people. If you can't understand that then I'm sorry. But don't tell me that I don't understand the plight of the disadvantaged. I've never lived it myself, but I see it regularly.

I can't hope to change you mind on any of this. You're older than me and lived a different life. All I can ask is that you understand my reasoning.

[buckeyefan78]

Originally Posted by Ellis

Buck, your voice is way too passive. Try: the government murdered them.

I'll let ya read my speeches before I give 'em from now on.

Thanks Rob.

[buckeyefan78]

Originally Posted by CKFresh

I believe that your cynical view of government in general doesn't allow to recognize the differences between parties. They are both bad, so it doesn't matter.

Well it does matter. As I pointed out on another thread, people do better under progressive/liberal/democratic leadership.

Those same people you are talking about live better lives when we elect the lesser of two evils.

So all of your intellectual indifference is fine for this message board, but when it comes down to actually improving the lives of people in the gutter, your vote does nothing.

I do recognize the plight of the disadvantaged, that's why I spend time helping them. I don't have any money, but I give what I do have to certain charities.

I'm not trying to make this an argument of how "good" I am, that's not the point.

I vote Democrat because it helps people. If you can't understand that then I'm sorry. But don't tell me that I don't understand the plight of the disadvantaged. I've never lived it myself, but I see it regularly.

I can't hope to change you mind on any of this. You're older than me and lived a different life. All I can ask is that you understand my reasoning.

Those same people you are talking about live better lives when we elect the lesser of two evils.

Sorry CK but the fact you can type this is so utterly offensive it's pathetic.

I believe that your cynical view of government in general doesn't allow to recognize the differences between parties.

If your government tried murdering you...and people you loved (and succeeded in)...like it did to me...you'd think otherwise yourself...perhaps. The fact that maybe I'm ONLY "cynical" should be a good thing then.

Well it does matter. As I pointed out on another thread, people do better under progressive/liberal/democratic leadership.

And this stops the bullets flying?

So all of your intellectual indifference is fine for this message board, but when it comes down to actually improving the lives of people in the gutter, your vote does nothing.

I don't put the bullets in the guns for 'em. It's the best I can do. My "intellectual indifference" tells me for everytime a smart politician brings down his solutions with 5 college degrees little to nothing changed on the ground. Sorry, I was there on the ground.

I do recognize the plight of the disadvantaged, that's why I spend time helping them. I don't have any money, but I give what I do have to certain charities.

You have money. Let's not make a federal case out of it but don't tell me that. I don't care anyway.

Giving to charities is fine. Have you thought it out? Do you think it's right? Is this the best way to do something?

But don't tell me that I don't understand the plight of the disadvantaged. I've never lived it myself, but I see it regularly.

You see it regularly and approach it from an ethnocentric place that allows you to leave it as needs be.

I can't hope to change you mind on any of this. You're older than me and lived a different life. All I can ask is that you understand my reasoning.

I understand it. But the problem is this CK:

Under the current setup in our government/society/economic structure people like you (young, white, formally educated, privileged - there's nothing wrong with being privileged CK...don't get offended) are going to have to be the ones who understand these issues and break them down.

Answer yourself this: if people far smarter and better off than you have failed....what have they done wrong?

[CKFresh]

If your government tried murdering you...and people you loved (and succeeded in)...like it did to me...you'd think otherwise yourself...perhaps. The fact that maybe I'm ONLY "cynical" should be a good thing then.

I'm not sure if this is meant literally or not. Either way, can you elaborate?

And this stops the bullets flying?

Depends on which bullets you are talking about? In Iraq? Most definitely.

You have money. Let's not make a federal case out of it but don't tell me that. I don't care anyway.

Giving to charities is fine. Have you thought it out? Do you think it's right? Is this the best way to do something?

Relatively speaking, I guess I have money. Still, most people in this country have more money than me, and do less.

In terms of charity... It might not be the MOST effective thing, but what do you suggest I do - I also volunteer.

You see it regularly and approach it from an ethnocentric place that allows you to leave it as needs be.

You don't know **** about how I approach anything.

I understand it. But the problem is this CK:

Under the current setup in our government/society/economic structure people like you (young, white, formally educated, privileged - there's nothing wrong with being privileged CK...don't get offended) are going to have to be the ones who understand these issues and break them down.

Trust me, I'd love to "break them down." How do you suggest we do this? Revolution?

Answer yourself this: if people far smarter and better off than you have failed....what have they done wrong?

Depends on who you are talking about. All politicians? Different leaders have failed for different reason.

[Tarkus]

Well, seems Buck's done all the heavy lifting in this thread but it still amazes me that there's any opposition to the basic foundation that this Government continues to fail on the most basic things. Just staggering...

Talking politics is one thing but when the rhetoric is nothing but smoke & mirrors (which doesn't remotely work) party BS, it's obvious that there's no room for real conversation...

[CKFresh]

Well, seems Buck's done all the heavy lifting in this thread but it still amazes me that there's any opposition to the basic foundation that this Government continues to fail on the most basic things. Just staggering...

I'd agree that our government has a lot of room for improvement...

But can you think of any government, in any country or time in history, that has provide more protection (financial and physical) than the US government?

Maybe people, not governments, are the problem...

Talking politics is one thing but when the rhetoric is nothing but smoke & mirrors (which doesn't remotely work) party BS, it's obvious that there's no room for real conversation...

You're right, I'm just a brain-washed peon who has no valuable thoughts.

[CKFresh]

Oh ****...

Tark is going to lay into me here :bash:

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by CKFresh

I'd agree that our government has a lot of room for improvement...

But can you think of any government, in any country or time in history, that has provide more protection (financial and physical) than the US government?

Maybe people, not governments, are the problem...

See, it's this kind of double talk nonsense that means nothing & goes nowhere. It's just a catch phrase to get off the topic at hand by trying to point out that something that's F'd-up is not as F'd-up as something else.

As far as maybe it's not the Government that's the problem but the people:

Of course it's the F'n people & last time I heard, that's exactly who the **** is running this Government.

You're right, I'm just a brain-washed peon who has no valuable thoughts.

C'mon, CK

Don't start this crap again...at least with me. Ignoring me is probably the best thing anyway since I don't agree with you constantly answering any of the BS this Government pulls with an automatic attack on the Republicans while whitewashing & diminishing the Democrats degree of responsibility compared to the Republicans.

If you have no core beliefs that make you able to stand up & Damn the lot of them for their stupidity as a whole, then don't comment cuz I won't hesitate to point out the excuse making party smack.

I don't post these things to draw you into an argument but if you choose to delve into my posts, don't end up getting pissy while complaining you're being abused.

*sigh*

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by CKFresh

Oh ****...

Tark is going to lay into me here :bash:

:lol:

I'd like to think you still have a sense of humor somewhere in all that Rodney Dangerfield talk...

[CKFresh]

See, it's this kind of double talk nonsense that means nothing & goes nowhere. It's just a catch phrase to get off the topic at hand by trying to point out that something that's F'd-up is not as F'd-up as something else.

As far as maybe it's not the Government that's the problem but the people:

Of course it's the F'n people & last time I heard, that's exactly who the **** is running this Government.

My point was, it seems that we are doing pretty good when you look at the history of leadership in the world.

Can I ask you what kind of government you would support?

I ask, because I think some people would be unsatisfied, no matter who's in control.

We live in the most prosperous and peaceful soceity in the history of the world. All-in-all our government is pretty effective.

since I don't agree with you constantly answering any of the BS this Government pulls with an automatic attack on the Republicans while whitewashing & diminishing the Democrats.

Anyone who supports a major party is (fill in the blank).

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by CKFresh

My point was, it seems that we are doing pretty good when you look at the history of leadership in the world.

That particular point can have some merit in the right conversation but when it's used to deflect the amazing historical failures by our Government, it loses any true meaning.

It's not a punchline to be used any time someone wants to distance themselves & their party choice using degrees of culpability.

Can I ask you what kind of government you would support?

See, everything that is F'd-up always seems to come down to that question. There are sooooo many instances that are based on the greed of the people in those positions of Government that it's not right to 'throw the baby out with the bath water' or act like anyone with dissatisfaction at the way things are currently being handled must want a different Government.

Instead it's time to put each & every key figure/politician/employee/etc.'s feet to the fire to get the system working. Then....you step back & see what a better running Government can do & go from there. However, until you ferret out/eliminate the waste/bloat of this Government, you'll never know.

I ask, because I think some people would be unsatisfied, no matter who's in control.

Another catch phrase...

You know what I'd love to hear? I'd love to hear a die hard Dem or Republican raking their guy over the coals, demanding to know why their loyalty should be expected & then following up with a grade system of their own & finding ways to vocalize it. Of course the average American doesn't do it cuz the majority of Politicians treat them like mushrooms & keep them in the dark & use so much political-speak/double talk to keep them unsure of what the game is that they end up just simplifying things like choosing 'the lessor of 2 evils' & not questioning/demanding more from that choice.

Politics are one thing but the basic premise 'for the good of the people' doesn't need a political background to understand it. Just cuz the parties are constantly at war with each other & trying to roadblock each other like it's their own little chess game doesn't preempt the public from howling from the rooftops & voting accordingly. If the public kept the heat on with issues, the parties would be forced into action more & the individual politicians would start to realize that the public's voice is getting louder.

Instead there's an issue here & there that gets all the attention like Heath Care as example. That's cuz all the Baby Boomers are getting up there in age & wield some influences of their own. See, still all about the votes, not the health of the country. I know...the end justifies the means & all but just using as a political ploy to get into office doesn't automatically mean success. I'll believe it when I see it.

Of course, the public's participation on that level is a far cry from happening but that shouldn't stop people who are fed up from bringing up the crap. Face it, you love the political competition talk so much that most of your time is spent, at least here on SC, Damning the Republicans while exonerating the Democrats. No one should be so secure in their party's moves that wholeheartedly that they don't bark about a lot of their moves.

You do it about the Bengals/Reds management but not the politicians who directly influence your life & future.

Now how F'd-up is that?

We live in the most prosperous and peaceful soceity in the history of the world. All-in-all our government is pretty effective.

The economy is in the crapper & sinker lower, we're ruled by the oil barons, unemployment's rising, millions are being foreclosed on, we spend billions each month in a war nobody wants, more & more businesses are moving overseas or out-sourcing, we can't keep our schools safe & are relying on armed teachers, etc.,etc., etc.

yep...prosperous & peaceful.

I think people should start looking back thru history for parallels to the 'greatest' societies & learn from their supreme arrogance & stupid moves. Look up the Roman Empire, Alexander the Great, the Mongol Empire, the Russian Bear, etc.

The USA hasn't been around that long to think they're invincible.

& people should start watching the use of "the greatest country in the world". We lost the identity of that phrase a loooong time ago & have been resting on our laurels while the rest of the world has been getting closer.

Anyone who supports a major party is (fill in the blank).

Just a defensive posture to act like your beliefs are being diminished.

Anyone who votes a major party can do so but if they attempt to put lipstick on their pig as tho that choice is not riddled with major problems in some of their delegates/effectiveness, they're just fooling themselves.

It's a system that is light years from not being heavily criticized.

[CKFresh]

I've got to go Tark. Well said though. I really do agree with much of what you say.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - we need to switch to a proportional representation system. This would allow, smaller "3rd" parties to gain some power and influence, and would force more accountability.

Will you join me in this fight?

[Tarkus]

I'm always up for a fight.

Have a good one, CK...

[CKFresh]

Originally Posted by Tarkus

I'm always up for a fight.

Have a good one, CK...

Thanks! Wish me luck at the casino!

Take care old man

[Tarkus]

Good luck & don't take any wooden nickels.