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Old 09-05-2008, 05:15 PM   #16
buckeyefan78
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Damn, that's depressing...

&, once again, another set of issues that ultimately fall on big government, no matter what party tho by description in this case, using the 'degree of accountability' , if one chooses to use that formula, the Dems should avoid 'answering the phone' to be asked about these examples...
The other cities are Cleveland, Dayton, Canton, Flint, Detroit,Scranton, Buffalo and Charleston WV.

Springfield Mass made the list but that's out of my cultural/regional background so I won't comment on it.



Typical story of the forgotten rust belt that gave party loyalty long after the smoke stacks and assembly lines went dormant...or nearly so.

Jesus Christ...Flint's unemployment rate is 9.7%. I thought Youngstown's was bad at 7.3%.

Damn shame.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:17 PM   #17
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Buck,

Could it be possible that the federal government's policies have more impact on the economy of "rust belt" cities than the policies of Mayor's and local officials?
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:24 PM   #18
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Buck,

Could it be possible that the federal government's policies have more impact on the economy of "rust belt" cities than the policies of Mayor's and local officials?
In some instances...sure.

I mean...NAFTA destroyed any hope of this place getting back up.

Who signed that one again?



The manufacturing sector of the rust belt fell under Carter's watch. You'll have to give me that one due to the age thing again.



Local officials and state reps (harldy without federal power) have to get monies from the feds and spend it on their region's best interests. They had Carter and Clinton and did nothing. With lesser monies under Bush and Reagan they did just as bad. Most, if not all, were Dems.

You should see the hairbrain schems...I mean ideas...these local politicians have come up with in the last 20 or so years to get this region on the move again.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #19
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You make some good point. Clinton did plenty that I disagree with. NAFTA is one, Welfare Reform is another.

On some issues, like this one which is near-and-dear to your heart, both parties are equally liable for the damage. I will not argue that.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:29 PM   #20
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You make some good point. Clinton did plenty that I disagree with. NAFTA is one, Welfare Reform is another.

On some issues, like this one which is near-and-dear to your heart, both parties are equally liable for the damage. I will not argue that.
What, specifically, would be your take on this list then CK?

I mean, local and state officials have failed miserable in the 30 years since the collapse of industry to get these rust belt cities moving again.

They repeatedly put Dems in office despite this fact. The Dems know it and do nothing.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:32 PM   #21
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What, specifically, would be your take on this list then CK?

I mean, local and state officials have failed miserable in the 30 years since the collapse of industry to get these rust belt cities moving again.

They repeatedly put Dems in office despite this fact. The Dems know it and do nothing.
I'm not sure what you are asking me... my take on "this list?" I'm not being a smartass... I really don't know what you mean...

I'm off work now. Your wish ahs been granted buck:

I'll get back to you on this
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:37 PM   #22
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I'm not sure what you are asking me... my take on "this list?" I'm not being a smartass... I really don't know what you mean...

I'm off work now. Your wish ahs been granted buck:

I'll get back to you on this
Here's the gist of it:

Dems have controlled these cities, namely Youngstown, for well over 30 years. The manufacturing base collapsed 30 years ago and the people here still follow party loyalty and vote Dem even though these places are living nightmares.

But you say...

But when modern history clearly shows one party to be significantly better for the American people than the other party, it's not loyalty, it's just common sense.

If the Dems have had all the local and state control of these areas with sporadic presidential power (mostly Congress overall has been Dem up until 1994- as you know) then why are these places in such bad shape?

The Dems clearly aren't helping them. What I'm suggesting to you is that party loyalty has made these people forgotten cuz the big wigs know they have 'em.

Sure, they'll throw 'em a line now and then. Hell, one of Obama's cronies was on Larry King last night and made a blurb about Youngstown and Scranton (probably had this list in front of him ) but when will things on the ground improve?
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:42 PM   #23
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I would say that the Dems have failed in this area.

As I pointed out, Bill Clinton failed on this specific issue.

Party loyalty is a bad thing.

At the same time, I would use an argument that you have used before. External factors, uncontrolable by any party or elected official. Globalization and immigration are nearly unstoppable forces. There is little that any elected official can do about the fact of cheaper labor overseas.

Would the situation be any better if local government would have been republican dominated? I doubt it - and I think you'd agree.

What about other areas and issues? Do failures in one area mean that the entire party has failed on every issue?

So yes, the Democratic party as a whole has failed to address the one thing that you find most important. However, voting Democrat moves the country in a better direction than voting Republican - at least in my view. The failure on one issue, in one region f the country does not justify helping the republicans by voting for a third party in a national election.

Third parties and independents are more realistic alternatives on the local level, for many reasons.

Local democrats should be held accountable and voting outside party lines makes sense in local elections - as long as there is a viable alternative.

On a national presidential election however, it's a practice in futility. As I have stated before, the two parties will dominate until the system is fundamentally changed to proportional representation.

As long as the two parties have unquestionable dominance on the national level, I have no choice but to do what I can to elect the party which I view as the lesser of two evils.

But, yes, I can see your frustration and I agree with your assessment of the Democrats failure on certain issues.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:58 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
I would say that the Dems have failed in this area.

As I pointed out, Bill Clinton failed on this specific issue.

Party loyalty is a bad thing.

At the same time, I would use an argument that you have used before. External factors, uncontrolable by any party or elected official. Globalization and immigration are nearly unstoppable forces. There is little that any elected official can do about the fact of cheaper labor overseas.

Would the situation be any better if local government would have been republican dominated? I doubt it - and I think you'd agree.
Pure rhetoric...

The reasons why something happened should have no bearing on a solution. As it is, there's no major effort, no battle plan, no nothing from either party for forever. The Rust Belt doesn't need a history lesson, they need a government who cares. Of course, the effort/money/involvement needed isn't 'sexy' enough or benefit the Parties to make that effort.


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What about other areas and issues? Do failures in one area mean that the entire party has failed on every issue?
This is just one MAJOR example of incompetence, not the only thing. You just have to get off the blind loyalty & double talk.

Quote:
So yes, the Democratic party as a whole has failed to address the one thing that you find most important.


What kind of citizen are you that this kind of neglect & incompetence from the Government has you dismissing this issue as "that you find most important"? Since they're not ****ting in your back yard it's OK by you? Do you have any standards that include a level of competence & treatment for the rest of the Nation? You don't think this affects everyone ultimately?

Excuse the rant but that's just F'n insane...


Quote:
However, voting Democrat moves the country in a better direction than voting Republican - at least in my view. The failure on one issue, in one region f the country does not justify helping the republicans by voting for a third party in a national election.
So...the Dems only have this one example of incompetence.

I'll tell you what, if you felt total dissatisfaction with both Parties choices, the idea of voting 3rd Party isn't about the odds of that choice winning, it's more about sending the message what issues are more important which that candidate preaches. Both Parties watch for lost votes to 3rd Parties & tend to incorporate a lot of those to win back those voters lost previously.

Just Politics as usual but still one of the many ways you can be heard as a voter to some degree in this system if you choose. Saying you can't do anything but be Big Party is truly being the sheep I always refer to.


Quote:
Third parties and independents are more realistic alternatives on the local level, for many reasons.

Local democrats should be held accountable and voting outside party lines makes sense in local elections - as long as there is a viable alternative.

On a national presidential election however, it's a practice in futility. As I have stated before, the two parties will dominate until the system is fundamentally changed to proportional representation.

As long as the two parties have unquestionable dominance on the national level, I have no choice but to do what I can to elect the party which I view as the lesser of two evils.

But, yes, I can see your frustration and I agree with your assessment of the Democrats failure on certain issues.
So while you know there's much that's wrong in this country, you just choose to vote Dem & defend the Party no matter what failings there are out there.

As I said before, there's no sense in being a Party Loyalist, defending it blindly, & acting like there's no choice.

Yes there is...you can choose not to be.
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:00 PM   #25
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At the same time, I would use an argument that you have used before. External factors, uncontrolable by any party or elected official. Globalization and immigration are nearly unstoppable forces.
I don't know where I've specifically used this argument but I do appreciate the history lesson... like Tarkus... on what I've lived thru...however flawed the logic may be.

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There is little that any elected official can do about the fact of cheaper labor overseas.
Again, as Tarkus noted, the reason why something happened should have no bearing on the solution. This is pure political mumbo jumbo that does nothing to help the situation on the ground.

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Would the situation be any better if local government would have been republican dominated? I doubt it - and I think you'd agree.
I don't agree because I'm not interested in playing an endless of game of politics with the lives of the American people...as the two parties and you like to do. Here once again we touch on your "lesser of two evils" theory which has done nothing to produce results on the ground.

The blind party loyalty in the rust belt for the last 30 + years has done nothing to save the inner cities dotted along the Great Lakes.

I don't care about numbers victories where only 91% of the kids I coach live in poverty when a GOP dominated machine MAY HAVE that number at 95%.

It's too f-uckin' much regardless...get your head out of your ass.

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What about other areas and issues? Do failures in one area mean that the entire party has failed on every issue?
Where have local and state Dems served these people? All these same cities make the list when the government releases its poverty, education and crime reports. Want me to jump for joy cuz Youngstown is #2 on this dying city list but #1 on the most impoverished cities list? Last year's ranking had it at #9 for most dangerous cities (based on crime). I'm sure a #11 ranking this year would be touted by you as a "Democratic victory"...



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So yes, the Democratic party as a whole has failed to address the one thing that you find most important.
Like Tarkus (as I surmise from his tone), this is the kind of statement that bothers me the most and find stunning. You're so wrapped up in The Game you couldn't see the situation on the ground unless you were taken from your
fictional battle station of blind party loyalty and forced to deal with it. It's in all of our interests and unlike you, I don't take up "causes" for political/ ideological debates...I do so cuz I was there when the s-hit went down. I understand you're going to cry the age and experience bias here cuz that's all you see but I really don't care CK. I told you once before and no matter how much you don't like it...it's people like YOU (the privileged) that have the most responsibility in moving this nation forward. It's a real kick in the pants...I understand that. I've given that lesson to countless young people like yourself and they can't stand the notion of it. But, and sorry to get Biblical on your ass,

To whom much is given, much is expected.

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However, voting Democrat moves the country in a better direction than voting Republican - at least in my view. The failure on one issue, in one region f the country does not justify helping the republicans by voting for a third party in a national election.
Well, what region of the country should we focus on? Sorry, but this is just a b.s. political statement.

Personally, the people in this nation that should come first are as followed...

manufacturing workers
farmers
military
the poor
the elderly
the young

I know, I know...but "we're the party of those people"...



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On a national presidential election however, it's a practice in futility. As I have stated before, the two parties will dominate until the system is fundamentally changed to proportional representation
We're getting to the point that I may have to ask you to send your sheepskin back to Athens.

If you choose to see the federal executive in this light...it's a shame.

BTW...

Quit with this federal power trip too. The president isn't Jesus Christ...no matter if Obama is elected or not. This ain't a dictatorship where all the orders come down from one person.

The money is all the same. How the hell do you think the local parties get funded? From the top. And how does the national party get funded? From the bottom.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:19 AM   #26
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #27
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Default The GOP vs........ The GOP

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