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Old 02-13-2003, 06:10 PM   #16
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I actually like how KG has stepped it up this year too Brian. I would say he is proably almost as valuable to his team as Duncan is. The fact is, the MVP just doesn't go to guys who play on teams that don't finish first in their division or a close second. Whether you like it or not, that's been the historical fact.

And the guys who have won it while playing on second place teams have been guys like Jordan and Dr. J., who are flat out GODS. So, it is going to be difficult, in fact, I would say nearly impossible for KG to win MVP if the Wolves don't finish either first or second in the Midwest. And as we all know, Dallas is going to be first, so the Wolves must overtake the Spurs and Duncan for KG to have a shot at MVP. I just don't see it happening, hence MVP goes to Duncan. History is a hard thing to break.

Remember how Kidd lost out to Duncan last year? Well, the big thing that hurt Kidd was the fact his team won only 52 games while playing in one of the weakest conferences in quite some time. That had a big factor in him losing out, in my opinion.
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Old 02-13-2003, 06:24 PM   #17
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To Joey and #47 on the T-Mac/ Kobe debate...

I agree with Joey, that Kobe has a better killer instinct then T-Mac, but not at the level of Jordan, atleast not yet. Although, T-Mac has never played in a game where something was on the line. Those games bring out the " killer" so to speak.

Kobe, in my opinion, who is less athletic then T-Mac, fits more of the Jordan mold at this point. Kobe's ability to pass and rebound are actually AHEAD of Jordan's at his age. Remember, Kobe is only 24. Remember how raw Jordan still was at 24, while still being able to play at nearly an elite level already? Kobe's shot reminds me of Jordan's , although Kobe's outside shot is not at Jordan's level, atleast not yet. Jordan was a master post up player later in his career, a credit to his intelligence, and Kobe isn't at that level yet, not nearly. That though, can be attributed to the fact that there is a giant monster named Shaq down low when Kobe has the ball on the outside. He has no need to go down there, but when Shaq retires, I think Kobe, a master student of the game, will learn the post as Jordan did before him.

Right now, Kobe's overall numbers are better then T-Mac's, and Kobe has another great on his team in Shaq, so that favors Kobe. You would expect T-Mac to have higher numbers cause he has much less help. Kobe's physique is definitely closer to Jordn's, not that it means anything in this debate. I think T-Mac is perhaps a better rebounder then Kobe, although Kobe has more per game. I think T-Mac's longer arms help him there.

Overall, I believe Kobe fits the mold better now, but T-Mac really only came into his own last year, so let's see how it goes. I would love for the Magic to get their act together so maybe they can make a run, cause I think T-Mac has what it takes to deliever excitement in deep playoff action.
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Old 02-13-2003, 07:42 PM   #18
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Joey to answer your question, yes I think T-Mac is bigger, stronger and more physically talented then Kobe, like '78 already stated. But you are very correct in saying that Kobe does have a much higher killer instinct in him.

While I do think T-Mac has the greater upside, I do believe Kobe is the better player at this point and he may always be, because he has a greater work ethic then T-Mac. You can just tell by watching the games how much Kobe wants it. His defensive effort is far and away, way ahead of T-Mac. Kobe plays every game, whether it be Denver or Dallas, like it means everything.

I think that is what is seperating Kobe from T-Mac at this point.

And Doug come on now, you cant possibly be putting Ray Allen in the same sentence as Kobe. You can put T-Mac there , but Ray is well below these guys.
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:40 PM   #19
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1 on 1 Ray Allen is nowhere near as good as Kobe Bryant. Kobe can do so many more things then Allen can. He's nowhere near the player Kobe is. But with Shaq, I think that Allen could put up big points because he has a great jumpshot when that is all that he is doing. He needs to be in a situation where he isn't the focus on a nightly basis. Shaq took Penny to the finals and Penny to a point where the man had commercials with a minature likeness of himself. My point wasn't to put Allen up there with Kobe, but to just praise. Yea, it was stretching things a bit, but sometimes exageration helps to make a point.
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Old 02-13-2003, 10:34 PM   #20
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Ray Allen - one of the best strokes in the game.
He's underrated though. Many people underestimate his abilities.
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Old 02-13-2003, 10:51 PM   #21
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Doug you have never seen me discount anything in regards to Shaqs game, or his impact on the players around him and yes he would help Jesus Shuttleworth immensely.

But all that aside, Kobe does far more things and is just a much better all around player. Kobe is just on another plane all together then Jesus is, as T-Mac is also.

Air Canada there is no doubt that Jesus has an incredible stroke, great quick release. But the rest of his game, is very limited.
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:33 PM   #22
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I agree with #47 that Allen is a limited player. He does not have the rebounding, passing, or ball handling skills of Bryant or T-Mac for that matter.

#47 is also right on when mentioning T-Mac's defense. It pales in comparison to Kobe's. Kobe's work ethic is evident EVERY moment of the game. This guy doesn't want to leave the court. His whole day is the 2 and half hours the game is going on. T-Mac falls short here too.

In all fairness to T-Mac, I would like to see him play in some meaningfull games before I fully judge him, like I said before. He's young, exciting, and more athletic and stronger then Bryant, but the question is ....does he want it like Kobe does?
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:13 AM   #23
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lol @ jesus shuttleworth. Bucks oughta fire George Karl and hire Denzel.

As for Allen, I disagree with air canada in his saying Allen is underrated. Isn't he considered one of the better players in the league? I think he's got a great jumpshot. That would excel with Shaq. I've always considered Allen to be an overrated player, which is why my including him surprised even myself.

I think if you are picking players, right now I would take Shaq 1, T-Mac 2 and then Kobe or Iverson. I take Iverson, but that is simply based on my biases. I'm a Sixers fan and he got the team to the finals, Kobe said he was gonna cut our throats.

About the defense...I look at it like this, T-Mac is not as good defensively as Kobe, but, his defense reminds me of Kobe's in their first Title run. I never really considered Kobe to be a great defender until he shut down Iverson in a game about midway through the season of the Lakers 2nd Title. I think T-Mac has it in him, he needs that one moment to bring it out of him though.
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:40 AM   #24
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Every time when Kobe gets 50+ points are against crappy teams. Lets see. Warriors, Grizzlies and Nuggets. And you'll are acting like Kobe never did anything bad in basketball before.
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Old 02-14-2003, 06:32 AM   #25
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Kobe can dump 40 on amyone any night thats why he's an all star, Clipper Boy. i believe that if Kobe plays well and the Lakers make it to the Finals and win Kobe should get way more credit than Shaq (assuming Shaq plays the same the rest of the season).
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Old 02-14-2003, 09:16 AM   #26
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Clipperboy come on. First hes the only guy to drop 50 in any game this year and every team has played lousy teams.

Secondly, he has scored 41 @ boston, 46 against the Rockets, 44 @ Philly, 45 against Seattle, 40 @ Phoenix, 42 against the Jazz and 46 @ New York all team either vying for a playoff spot or in good position for the playoffs. I left out the 40 plus point games against Memphis, Golden State and Denver(twice) to appease you with just the better teams.

Doug my order includes the same guys, but Kobe is second on my list.
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:57 AM   #27
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I agree with #47 Clipperboy, Kobe can drop atleast 40 on any team any night of the week. No one can debate that. As for 50...hmmm...some of the better defensive teams in the league might be able to contain him to that point, namely Detroit, but he can still drop 50 on a very high percentage of teams.

I think I sense some jealousy for the Lakers, Clipperboy. This is very common though. Ever been to Staples Center? The seats are purple, the BATHROOMS are purple, the walls around the inside of the arena are purple....and about 85% of the merchandise in the gift shops are Lakers stuff. The few times I've been there, I've felt bad for the Clippers... Plus all those championship banners that hang overhead while the Clippers play their home games...is well, kind of embarassing for them... :uhoh:
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:39 PM   #28
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Well, in speaking if we could pick players, who would we pick. Of course, anyone would pick Shaq first, because their is no one to contest him at his position....not to mention he gets tons of calls to go his way. The player with the best overall game though is Kobe.

Now let's talk about Mcgrady. We have talked about him not having a killer instinct, and the fact that he has never really played in big games to have a killer instinct. Sad thing is, he may never get the chance to play in a big game if Orlando's roster does not improve. Orlando has to land some kind of decent free agent(who will actually play)...if that is all possible.....a big man would be nice as well...for Orlando is terrible in the post.

The only so-called big game atmosphere Mcgrady has starred in was the first round of the playoffs. He was awesome against the Bucks a few years ago in the first round, and in that series I started to respect Mcgrady for his abilities much more. Maybe Mcgrady has it in him, maybe he doesn't, or maybe we will never get to see it because his team won't get the chance to play in meaningful postseason games.

So, I think Kobe is the best overall player in the NBA right now....but I think it will always be that way in this particular era or generation of current stars....I think Kobe can dominant for at least 6 more seasons.

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Old 02-14-2003, 02:22 PM   #29
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Joey, I agree with you on T-Mac and the need for some meaningful games to test his true self and ability.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE that Shaq gets a ton of calls his way though.

Ok, first off, is what people like to call the lowering of his shoulder into the defender to create space as he goes up for a shot. I will concede here that a DECENT percentage of the time, this is an offensive foul, that Shaq rarely gets called for. I also believe that some of the time, the defender is to blame, for not adequately providing the space that is guarenteed to the offensive player.

Now, and here is where I go nuts :redhot: , league rules say that if a player fouls another player and his intentions were not to go for the ball, it is a flagrant foul. If the refs followed this rule as it is written, Shaq's defenders would get called for ATLEAST 5 flagrant fouls a game. People grab his waist, his arms, anything they can get ahold off to slow him down. This is complete junk. These are in fact, flagrant fouls. The league doesn't do anything about this, because if they followed it correctly, the Lakers would get ...oh, say....around 15 extra points a game.

Overall, the way the league allows people to abuse Shaq, and abuse him when he doesn't even have the ball, is much more unfair to O'Neal, then it is to the rest of the NBA.
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Old 02-14-2003, 07:01 PM   #30
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Shaq does get quite a few calls his way. However, when he lowers the shoulder into the defender, the defender's role is to accept the contact, not create more contact to meet him. This is what most defenders try to do. This is a defensive foul (pushing).
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