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Old 05-02-2007, 12:18 AM   #31
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To you, perhaps. To those that actually understand economics, it does not.
Under socialism, there is no incentive to excel. Only to do the minimum required to get by.
I prefer owning my own part of the "dream". I prefer taking a chance to fail, as opposed to having no reason to put anything at risk. I prefer having incentives, rather than just getting by.
Under socialism, the average worker works to about 60% of his/her capacity, according to studies I have read. Is 60% good enough for you? If so, you belong in a socialist state. It is not good enough for me.
Enough said. You are wrong about this economic structure. There is no incentive to produce the extra widgets. No one will benefit, except those who control the workers. They are those who are "more" equal -- using the Orwellean terms.
If you think things are inefficient now, you need to look closer at socialism. I guarantee you that it will make this look like a "golden" era in our history.
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Old 05-02-2007, 12:42 AM   #32
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OK Fresh, another chance to shine. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the country decides to adopt your ideas. What do we do with the stockholders of the companies that are nationalized? Concentrate your explanation on those stockholders that are foreigners and those whose pensions are tied to the market.
I'll wait for your explanation and am very interested in reading it. Don't disappoint me again as you did the last time I asked for details.
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Old 05-02-2007, 03:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
Fresh, the tax cuts were and are for everyone. It appears that the wealthy get a bigger break, because they pay the vast majority of the taxes to the Government every time. The highest 5% of the incomes pay more than 30% of the dollars to the Government. The highest 50% pay 95% of the taxes. The lowest 25% pay nothing. How is this a tax cut for the "rich" only?

Nobody but nobody pays nothing. Ever heard of FICA? Ever heard of state (and local) sales taxes, which many conservatives want to adopt on the federal level to replace the income tax?

And what's so "unfair" about the highest 5% paying 30% when their percentage of the total wealth is at least twice that?
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Old 05-02-2007, 03:28 AM   #34
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The Government is not a charity group according to the founding fathers. The Red Cross, Catholic Charities, St. Jude's hospital, Shriners, and associations for the various diseases, are far better and more efficient than Government for solving the problems of the "poor" in our country, period.


If you were right about this, then Herbert Hoover would have been re-elected in 1932 by a landslide.

Also, according to the "founding fathers," if you weren't white you were someone else's property.

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Old 05-02-2007, 03:32 AM   #35
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To you, perhaps. To those that actually understand economics, it does not.
Under socialism, there is no incentive to excel. Only to do the minimum required to get by.
I prefer owning my own part of the "dream". I prefer taking a chance to fail, as opposed to having no reason to put anything at risk. I prefer having incentives, rather than just getting by.
Under socialism, the average worker works to about 60% of his/her capacity, according to studies I have read. Is 60% good enough for you? If so, you belong in a socialist state. It is not good enough for me.
Enough said. You are wrong about this economic structure. There is no incentive to produce the extra widgets. No one will benefit, except those who control the workers. They are those who are "more" equal -- using the Orwellean terms.
If you think things are inefficient now, you need to look closer at socialism. I guarantee you that it will make this look like a "golden" era in our history.


But if you fail once, wouldn't you like to get a second chance? Under Darwinian capitalism, you don't: For proof of this, spend a day walking through any large, old cemetery. If you do, you will notice that the death dates on the headstones tend to cluster in certain years; these were the years in which economic downturns hit, and many people routinely died of starvation, exposure, etc.

Would you like to go back to those days? Personally, I would prefer even a life under the Taliban to that.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:01 AM   #36
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There is no incentive to produce the extra widgets. No one will benefit, except those who control the workers.
Apparently you don't know what socialism is. "Those who control the workers" are THE WORKERS!!

Do some reading, you might be surprised at what you can learn from books. Or simply look up the word socialism on wikipedia or dictionary.com.

Quote:
OK Fresh, another chance to shine. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the country decides to adopt your ideas. What do we do with the stockholders of the companies that are nationalized? Concentrate your explanation on those stockholders that are foreigners and those whose pensions are tied to the market.
I'll wait for your explanation and am very interested in reading it. Don't disappoint me again as you did the last time I asked for details
I have already explained that the united states is not ready for socialism. We are much too barbaric and primitive to move towards the advancements that socialism would provide. The united states will not become socialists until globalism takes it full effect.

Let me explain it in terms you can understand. Once capitalism spreads throughout the world, the gap between the rich and poor will grow larger and larger. The majority of the worlds population will basically be slaves to the "free market" system, working tirelessly at jobs for their entire lives with little room to advance. Eventually, the workers of the world will unite, in a WORLD WIDE revolution - leading to world wide socialism.

The global economy has become such an international affair that the US could never go to socialism without the rest of the world doing so. This will not happen until capitalism has had time to oppress the majority of the people around the world.

Afterall, it is common knowledge that capitalism benefits very few, and oppresses the majority. Sure you have the "dream," unfortunately in order for there to be "winners" there must be "losers" under a capitalist society. The losers outnumber the winners, and that's what causes revolution.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:52 AM   #37
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Fresh, I am well aware of what socialism is. It is not what you think, however, especially if you grow it to a global level. There will have to be managers and administrators. These will be the people that benefit the most. The workers will be, essentially slaves of these "overlords". If this is what you want, have at it. I will, however, not participate by turning my assets over to these overlords.
If you think the majority is oppressed now, just do what you suggest. You ain't seen nothin' yet. There will be fewer extremely wealthy people, but those that are will own the vast majority of the assets.
Again I will ask you how the stockholders of the various corporations will have their holdnings in those corporations handled to move toward your "utopia".
I must read these suggestions.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:01 AM   #38
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Again I will ask you how the stockholders of the various corporations will have their holdnings in those corporations handled to move toward your "utopia".
Well, considering it will be a revolution, I think the stock holders will have much bigger problems to worry about other than their holdings. Simply stated, those who OWN everything, would eventually own nothing, in terms of the means of production.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
But if you fail once, wouldn't you like to get a second chance? Under Darwinian capitalism, you don't: For proof of this, spend a day walking through any large, old cemetery. If you do, you will notice that the death dates on the headstones tend to cluster in certain years; these were the years in which economic downturns hit, and many people routinely died of starvation, exposure, etc.

Would you like to go back to those days? Personally, I would prefer even a life under the Taliban to that.
Anthony, I have walked through old cemetaries on occasion and have noticed many deaths clustered around the economic disasters that you are talking about. Unfortunately for you, Fresh and the other doomsayers, the economy is doing just fine with a few controls on it.
Socialism is not the answer, unless you wish to become someone's slave.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:10 AM   #40
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Well, considering it will be a revolution, I think the stock holders will have much bigger problems to worry about other than their holdings. Simply stated, those who OWN everything, would eventually own nothing, in terms of the means of production.
You have not answered my question. What do you do with the stockholders' holdings in the corporations you wish to "nationalize"?
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:13 AM   #41
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You have not answered my question. What do you do with the stockholders' holdings in the corporations you wish to "nationalize"?
I wouldn't do anything. I am not suggesting anything, I simply telling you what WILL happen. The revolutionaries will TAKE those holdings, without asking any questions.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:13 AM   #42
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Nobody but nobody pays nothing. Ever heard of FICA? Ever heard of state (and local) sales taxes, which many conservatives want to adopt on the federal level to replace the income tax?

And what's so "unfair" about the highest 5% paying 30% when their percentage of the total wealth is at least twice that?
Just because someone is smart enough to make more money than I do does not mean they should pay more to the Government. I do not approve of the Government spending the way it is now. This is one of the things I disagree with President Bush on. His budget is entirely too big. It needs to be pared back about 10% in all non-military areas.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:16 AM   #43
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I wouldn't do anything. I am not suggesting anything, I simply telling you what WILL happen. The revolutionaries will TAKE those holdings, without asking any questions.
Fresh, there will be no revolution in your lifetime. Unless the book of Revelation is correct and the Church is raptured, bringing the Anti-Christ into the world.
No, this is not the place for a discussion of religion and I do not feel like lecturing you on this subject (yes I know you were raised Catholic, meaning you need a great deal of instruction to remove the dogma you were subjected to -- I sympathize with your plight).
This stance is very "interesting", but very wrong. You are telling me that someone's army will march into the US, overthrow the Government and set up your utopia? This I have to see, or at least read about. How, precisely, will this happen? And who will do it?
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:28 AM   #44
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Just because someone is smart enough to make more money than I do does not mean they should pay more to the Government.
You assume that everyone who earns a lot of money actually EARNED it - the greatest myth of the capitalist "dream." Reality is, if your parents are rich, you will most likely be rich, and if your parents were poor, you will most likely be poor. Wealth perpetuates itself. Those with money, get richer and richer, while the poor hold on to the "American Dream," hoping that one day they can be rich. In reality, the "American Dream" is a farce. Very few poor people are able to rise out of poverty. NOt due to lack of effort, but due to the system which is designed to keep the rich happy.

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Fresh, there will be no revolution in your lifetime.
You are correct. I venture to guess it will be about 100 years before globalization enslaves enough people for a revolution to happen.

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yes I know you were raised Catholic, meaning you need a great deal of instruction to remove the dogma you were subjected to -- I sympathize with your plight.
Insulting my family's religion and my upbringing is uncalled for. I would appreciate an apology.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
You assume that everyone who earns a lot of money actually EARNED it - the greatest myth of the capitalist "dream." Reality is, if your parents are rich, you will most likely be rich, and if your parents were poor, you will most likely be poor. Wealth perpetuates itself. Those with money, get richer and richer, while the poor hold on to the "American Dream," hoping that one day they can be rich. In reality, the "American Dream" is a farce. Very few poor people are able to rise out of poverty. NOt due to lack of effort, but due to the system which is designed to keep the rich happy.



You are correct. I venture to guess it will be about 100 years before globalization enslaves enough people for a revolution to happen.



Insulting my family's religion and my upbringing is uncalled for. I would appreciate an apology.
Fresh, I do not mean to insult anyone's religion. I am simply stating the fact that the Catholic religion has its own ideas on what has happened, is happening, and will happen in the future. I do not believe they are Biblically provable.
As to globalization "enslaving" people, your idea would enslave far more people than globalization every will. I do not really like the idea of "globalizing", but to remove barriers to trade is always a good thing. Tarriffs are entirely too high, but many countries need them to protect their businesses, which may or may not be operating "efficiently".
Your idea of utopia is my idea of something else. If you wish to live under these conditions, I would suggest that you move to Cuba and have the best time you can there. I, on the other hand, prefer the lifestyle that our economy allows me. I am allowed to succeed to the best of my abilities, not be "lorded" over by someone that thinks they are "in-charge" of my work area.
Again Fresh, precisely how will this "Revolution" happen and who will overthrow our Government?
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