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View Poll Results: Should the US continue to institute the death penalty?
Yes, some individuals should be executed for their crimes 10 66.67%
No, a civilized nation should not execute its people 5 33.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2004, 02:19 AM   #31
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I'm also very weary about supporting the death penalty. The obvious reason being human error. If I had to execute someone or send someone to be executed ....... I'd pray to God there was never any cases of mistaken identity or false convictions.

Can you imagine what that would be like on your conscience? Knowing that you killed an innocent person? Would you be any better than the actual killer? I think not.

At the same time, serial killers have always fascinated me and in my reading on the subject ..... and privledged discussions with people who have dealt with serrial killers, I have noticed a recurring theme from the victim's families ....... the call for closure. For a lot of families, this means ending the life of the person who has hurt them so much. I've never had to deal with this so I'm very sensitive to slaming anyone who may support capital punishment. Many family members have actually spoke of deep psychological tramua and nightmares while the murder sleeps comfortably in his state provided lodgings. Maybe it should be a right reserved for the next of kin?

Also, look at it from a financial standpoint. I've heard all kinds of numbers being thrown around such as it costs the state over $1000 dollars a day to house, feed, supervise and provide for maximum security prisoners. That's a lot of dough that could be spent to support health care, education, and other needs in our society.

However you look at it, there are many pros and cons but on the whole I'm extremely hesitant supporting the death penalty when the legal system is so flawed.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by KevinBeane
You are correct on both counts. There is, however, a federal death penalty if you commit a federal crime.
Right, states set criminal law in the U.S. ....but what constitutes a federal crime??? Something against the IRS or something??... Are you saying the also have national-wide criminal law for certain things like that?
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:15 PM   #33
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Imanchur:
Certain offenses trigger immediate entry into the federal justice system.

Two examples:
Killing the President of the United States (In 1963, when John F. Kennedy was assassinated, this was -- incredibly -- not a federal crime. That changed soon thereafter, but had Lee Harvey Oswald lived, he would have been tried only under Texas law)

Committing a crime on federal government property or in a federal government building (It was under this provision that Timothy McVeigh was executed for his part in the Oklahoma City bombing). The so-called federal Laci and Conner Law, which allows for a murder charge in an assault that causes the death of an unborn child, also applies only to crimes committed on federal land, such as military bases, although several states, including my home state of Pennsylvania, have similar laws.

Another crime that puts someone in the federal justice system and potentially triggering the death penalty could be murder/kidnapping in which the accused crosses state lines in committing the crime.
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:09 PM   #34
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#47...

I understand and appreciate where you are coming from, but I see this completely different. You are there when these people are at the end of the line, in prison. I am against the death penalty for several reasons...

1. It is applied unequally. Sure, the overwhelmingly majority of minority crime is against minorities. Why is it that minorites and the economically disadvantaged ( which oftentimes are one in the same ) receive the death penalty more than whites and the economically advantaged for the same crime? And it doesn't even have to be a death penalty crime. It's for all crimes #47. And let's not even go down South and take a look at the stats. It's downright barbaric with those backwards people. " Justice" in the hands of the uneducated religious zealots of the nation is downright scary.

2. It is does NOT deter crime.

3. It is against Christianity, a religion that this nation allegedly embraces ( I personally could care a less bout religion, but I find it so hypocritical for the right to be for death, but against abortion).

If you can refute the above 3 points #47, I'd be happy to see the merit in your argument.

Instead of being FOR the death penalty #47, you should be FOR zero population growth ( like I am), harsher penalties and in-facility standards for prisoners ( like I am. I am for life imprisonment for DUI's and 24 hour lock up for lifers with just three meals a deal. Seriously, it's where I am considered conservative. How's that for ' lookin in the mirror' ?). You should be FOR socialistic government ( like I am) where crime is an afterthought due to a justice system on justice, not $.

I don't question the danger of your job #47, but I assume you have a gun and you are on " one side" of a fence in the faciltiy. I've never been in jail, or a prison worker. I have taught in inner city schools for two years, where in that short time, I had atleast dozens of murderers, rapists, and whoever else in my classroom. I did grow up in one of, if not the most, dangerous cities in the U.S. when it comes to crime ( esp murder) per capita, so I'm not buying this notion of " if you've been there, you'd see it this way."

And your " love it or leave it" jab is laughable #47. I suppose dissent is a bad thing in your mind. Only problem is that this entire nation is one based on dissent, all the great and negative things about it. Almost as if it's a living organism, able to grow and change. Hmmm....now that's an idea that I could get behind.
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:13 PM   #35
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ESP...

Good show on the explanation. Anyone ever hear about the guy who killed his wife on a flight from London to New York and when they got on the ground in NYC, they just let him go because it was BEFORE federal laws on murder? Just a bit of funny trivia for us history nuts.
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Old 10-17-2004, 11:00 AM   #36
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'78, as someone who is anti-death penalty and pro-choice, I find the "It's inconsistent to be pro-death penalty and pro-life" to be, itself, a little inconsistent. To a lot of people who are in favor of the death penalty and against the death penalty, killin' killers is delivering justice to the guilty, while abortion is killing the innocent.

A lot of people are, like myself, pro-choice and anti-death penalty, which might be a little more inconsistent.

That said, it's a little jarring to hear someone like George W. Bush, who signed executions with such relish when governor of Texas, to ruminate on "a culture of life."

To use the words of former NFL linebacker David Meggessy, every act of violence has two victims. When we carry out executions, even just ones, it has a negative effect on all of us. Especially if we like it.

If we are going to have a death penalty, we can't approach it the way the President did back when he was signing death warrants. The guy once cracked a joke about someone he sent to the gurney. How Christian is that?

BTW, and I know this thread isn't about abortion, there are times when it is necessary to save the life of the mother. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette did a story a couple of years ago about a woman who developed cancer, I want to say it was cervical or uterine cancer. Doctors recommended she get an abortion so they could treat her illness.

Being an avid pro-lifer, the woman refused, and subsequently died.

There were other factors involved, and maybe she would have died of the cancer even if she had been treated right away, but were it my wife, there would be no question that I would recommend she get the abortion.

I know that most abortions are for invalid reasons -- sex selection and convenience just to name two -- but to outlaw abortion just because most people don't have a good reason for doing it would be a little like repealing the First Amendment freedom of speech just because there are a lot of pornographers out there.
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Old 10-17-2004, 08:45 PM   #37
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That comparison is just fundamentally wrong. The government already sets restrictions on free speech rights for indecency. So while on broad grounds, yes, we have freedom of speech, there are instances where we don't at least to the maximum level. Like it or not, that's the way it is. And having exceptions against an abortion ban when the mother's life in in jeopardy would fall into the same grounds as my free speech example. Most of the fimes there are exceptions to laws, and we find them out and work with them.
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Old 10-17-2004, 08:46 PM   #38
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But that's the last thing I'll say about it. I got sucked in. lol
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Old 10-18-2004, 01:30 AM   #39
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Good posts, ESP and Buckeye (I'm especially happy to be praising Buckeye, whom I've been butting heads with big-time, one OSU fan to another, in the football threads lately).

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, so I'm just tipping my hat...
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Old 10-18-2004, 01:33 AM   #40
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I understand the argument ESP on the innocent and guilty, but who am I to decide who is " guilty" and who is " innocent"? I just find it conceited and self righteous to have it both ways, but then again, those are two traits ingrained in American values so......
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Old 10-18-2004, 01:34 AM   #41
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Kevin...

I did something right? Yippeeeee !...LOL. See, within the never ending insane ramblings, I get out some " normal" stuff too.
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Old 10-18-2004, 09:57 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by ESP0704
First off, #47, I appreciate the work you do.

That said, don't presume to tell me that I shouldn't comment on something that I haven't experienced.

A lot of us on these threads, including myself, comment on subjects like pro football in columns on the Sports-Central Web site. But, at least as far as I know, none of us has actually played pro football.

By your logic (not to mention Sean Salisbury's) no one who hasn't played pro football can comment on it.

I've never worked in law enforcement, but as you will probably admit from the summary of my 2001 column above, I can comment intelligently on it.

(by the way, I have walked among at least one degenerate -- the aforementioned rampage killer; I was at his arraignment. He struck me as more pathetic than anything.)
Thank you ESP.

To move on to the rest of your post. Your right, you and anyone else can comment on anything you choose. But that doesnt mean you can have any understanding of whatever that may be.

You cannot equate in any terms commenting about pro football, something virtually everyone grows up 'watching' and what its like to be around inmates, especially convicted murderers. How often does one grow up, or even when finally grown up, spend intimate time getting to see how these people act every day? You dont, there are no TV shows to follow daily, no game reports on inmates, no pre game inmate shows at nausea. There are certain things in life you cannot come close to comprehending without experiencing it first hand. Football you can for the obvious, prison life and prison manners you cannot.

Now you may think because you covered a degenarate, that falls into that category and I respectfully disagree. No matter how good your report was, it is not seeing this individual on an everyday basis..........seeing how they act on the phone, during visits, towards other people everyday, whether it be other inmates, officers or civilian staff. This is when you get to know these guys and how they truly are as people..........and I can tell you, there worse then, then you could ever imagine. And lets face it, how these peope act in the court is no where close to how they are, they show that over the course of activity for years, not in a short appearance in court.

ESP, I respect your thoughts, I just dont agree.
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Old 10-18-2004, 10:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeyefan78
#47...

I understand and appreciate where you are coming from, but I see this completely different. You are there when these people are at the end of the line, in prison. I am against the death penalty for several reasons...

1. It is applied unequally. Sure, the overwhelmingly majority of minority crime is against minorities. Why is it that minorites and the economically disadvantaged ( which oftentimes are one in the same ) receive the death penalty more than whites and the economically advantaged for the same crime? And it doesn't even have to be a death penalty crime. It's for all crimes #47. And let's not even go down South and take a look at the stats. It's downright barbaric with those backwards people. " Justice" in the hands of the uneducated religious zealots of the nation is downright scary.

2. It is does NOT deter crime.

3. It is against Christianity, a religion that this nation allegedly embraces ( I personally could care a less bout religion, but I find it so hypocritical for the right to be for death, but against abortion).

If you can refute the above 3 points #47, I'd be happy to see the merit in your argument.

Instead of being FOR the death penalty #47, you should be FOR zero population growth ( like I am), harsher penalties and in-facility standards for prisoners ( like I am. I am for life imprisonment for DUI's and 24 hour lock up for lifers with just three meals a deal. Seriously, it's where I am considered conservative. How's that for ' lookin in the mirror' ?). You should be FOR socialistic government ( like I am) where crime is an afterthought due to a justice system on justice, not $.

I don't question the danger of your job #47, but I assume you have a gun and you are on " one side" of a fence in the faciltiy. I've never been in jail, or a prison worker. I have taught in inner city schools for two years, where in that short time, I had atleast dozens of murderers, rapists, and whoever else in my classroom. I did grow up in one of, if not the most, dangerous cities in the U.S. when it comes to crime ( esp murder) per capita, so I'm not buying this notion of " if you've been there, you'd see it this way."

And your " love it or leave it" jab is laughable #47. I suppose dissent is a bad thing in your mind. Only problem is that this entire nation is one based on dissent, all the great and negative things about it. Almost as if it's a living organism, able to grow and change. Hmmm....now that's an idea that I could get behind.
'78,

Not sure what you want me to answer.

1. I said in another post, if the rules of incarceration were different and they were not allowed so many amenities, then I 'may' see no need for the death penalty, but its not. I didnt make the system. There is no way you can tell me they should live the life they do...........getting to watch the playoffs(like you an i), spending sundays watching football(like you an i), etc., etc., etc...........yet there is someone who will never get to 'enjoy' those aspects ever again, not to mention what it does to the families. As for the economically disadvantaged..........I hate excuses and I have no time for excuse makers. In this day and age there is no excuse for one not be able to attain some type of 'legal' success in your life. It may be tougher beginnings for some as opposed to others, but there are too many avenues in this day for one to take to gain success. When people make excuses for people in this regard, they are insulting the millions of people who 'HAVE' worked hard to get from where they were, to where they are now.

2. I never ever said it was a crime deterrant.........not sure why you mentioned that to me. I only care about seeing someone get what they deserved and too me, seeing the everyday life of prison and what those individuals are like everyday, they are getting off easily in comparison to what they did to the person whom they committed there crime against. For the people who were killed, there is no next day, there is no next sporting event to watch, no next meal to enjoy, no next recreational activity to enjoy, no next book to read...............

3. Ummmmm '78, again why bring this up to me. I only once brought up God and that was in response to someone else who used it as a rediculous excuse to not have the death penalty and I never once made a post about abortion.

'78..........no, you never carry a gun behind the wall. Towers or checkpoints may have guns, but never in the population do you carry a gun, baton yes, but no gun. Wouldnt be real healthy(for the obvious) if for some reason they overpowered an officer and took there gun.

I never said dissent is a bad thing, I said if your not happy, go somewhere you are. Its a simple rationale for me.

Now this thread was originally it seems, just for some people to give there opinion on this topic, not to change minds. I dont expect to change minds, just as mine wont be. But there is some truth to the fact, you can only understand so much of what you havent truly exeperienced. IMO, you cannot understand life behind the wall, without being behind the wall................A&E's documentaries dont cut it real well.

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Old 10-18-2004, 10:59 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by #47
'78,

Not sure what you want me to answer.

1. not to mention what it does to the families. As for the economically disadvantaged..........I hate excuses and I have no time for excuse makers. In this day and age there is no excuse for one not be able to attain some type of 'legal' success in your life. It may be tougher beginnings for some as opposed to others, but there are too many avenues in this day for one to take to gain success.
I just want to address this particular point. If it's true, than 100% employment is possible, right? I mean, there's "so many avenues," That if EVERYONE applied themselves, then EVERYONE would be a success, right.

The problem is, it's not right. Economists from both the progressive and conservative camps agree that 100% employment is impossible under capatilism. So even if everyone was imbued with the work ethic of Mother Theresa, people are going to fail.

That's the whole thing about capitalism. It's competition. In competition, there are losers. And while institutional (Texaco, anyone? Denny's) racism is still there, there's going to be TONS more losers among the impovershed than among the affluent youth (classism is probably a bigger problem than racism even). Those who do make a success of themselves from impovershed beginnings are less likely to take offense at Buckeye's statement than yours, (that their accomplishment, given all the "avenues" available - and we all know how well-run and well-funded a lot of these programs are! - is no big deal).
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Old 10-18-2004, 11:04 AM   #45
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#47....

So we agree on the tougher instutional standards for privleges. I don't see how the this could effect your stance though. Why not turn the debate onto tougher inside standards instead of going to the extreme and ultimate end of death?

The crime deterent and religion was in general for everyone, not you personally #47.

On the justice system...Do you really think I can get the legal council of the capabilities of a Kobe or an O.J. on my salary? It is a system based on $.

Again, I take issue with your job here because it is just that, a job. You can go home and be away from it. You are on one side of a fence and they on the other. I understand giving the viewpoint from the inside there, but as one who grew up and later worked inside the ACTUAL DANGER of a society plagued by crime with no " fence", I find it difficult to see how the death penalty would have made me safer, others safer, or things in general any better. I WENT TO CLASS WITH AND TAUGHT PEOPLE LATER WHO KILLED OTHERS WHILE THEY WERE OUT ON BAIL $47. I understand the mindset and the whole situation. To be honest, killing these people isn't worth the effort or debate if one has any moral objection to it. Better to just lock them up for life with the BARE min. of life's needs and be done with them. Here is where money is an issue, and again, the good old U.S.A and it's capitalist ways interfer in justice and the overall health of the society.
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