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Old 01-06-2004, 10:37 PM   #1
Richard the Lionheart
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Default Here we go....Whose better...USC or LSU?

I'll post my thoughts later.

cough...LSU
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Old 01-07-2004, 12:04 AM   #2
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LSU. Their defense is the best defense I've seen in college in a long time. Blitz schemes are great and the corners can ****in' cover. Their offense isn't as good as USCs, but I think USC would only muster 14-17 points on LSU and LSU would score more than that on their defense.

I think this whole mess is getting taken out of proportion. From the start. When the whole thing happened where USC was left out, but number one in the polls everyone screamed that that was a problem.

But why did they make the BCS to begin with? Because the people that vote in the polls are morons that fall into the hype too damn much. This whole situation wasn't a reminder that the BCS was flawed, even though it may be, but a reminder that the polls are so ****ing stupid and we need something besides the polls to decide a National Champion.

I still think that the BCS got the two best teams in the country in the National Title game. LSU won that game, so yea, I think they're better than USC.

I've always been for a post-bowl Championship game. I think a playoff dampers the best regular season in sports as a team with two losses can move from number 6 to number 1 with a string of good wins, which I don't like. But if you get a split or situation like you do in this season, just have the two teams play a game.

Seriously, what's the harm in doing so? It's not going to happen, because as much as Carroll and Saban say that they want it to happen, when it comes time to actually do the damn thing, neither wants to risk losing what they have with the National Title.
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Old 01-07-2004, 07:10 AM   #3
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Who's better? U.S.C.

Talk all you want about how great the defense is if it makes you feel good. LSU can clamour on and on about how great it is, but in this "fantasy" matchup, I'll just look at common opponents for a second.

Florida, the sole team to defeat LSU at Baton Rouge, no less, was hammered by Iowa rather pitifully in their own backyard. Meanwhile, Michigan gave Iowa a very good run at Iowa during the Big Ten season. That same UM team was dominated by the Men of Troy to a point where they were giving up a touchdown every five minutes of possession time. The Trojans practically let Michigan own the clock and still whipped them.

I'm sure people would like to bring up Cal...heh...go ahead. I think Cal proved they can play, and putting up a 50 spot on VTech isn't the easiest thing to do...especially without All-American WR Geoff McArthur. One usually looks at how a team is playing at the end of the season, not the beginning, and Cal is a team that might have to be watched out for next year. The Bears better pray they can hold onto Tedford...he is showing his genius.

And really...can we respect a national champion that has to exhibit what may be one of the weakest non-conference schedules EVER for a national champion? If you want to bring out how tough the SEC is, well let's just stack it up to the Pac-10 in 2003...not exactly far stretches from each other.

No disrespect to the OU offense, but it was a sham...a fraud...momentum has a lot to say with things, and when a team shows flashes of invincibility, fortune can come frequently. Let's not even try to compare OU's offense to USC's. It's not even close. It's not even funny how much better USC is, and even with a nice blitzing scheme, you're going to have problems dealing with a three-back running attack filled with at least two guys who would be regular starters and a receiving corps that is quite likely the deepest in the nation. And frankly, LSU's offense isn't much to be discussed. I don't see their air attack being that much more effective than Michigan's, and the running game is at best slightly comparable to Perry and Co. USC's front seven isn't exactly shabby either, with three of four taking all Pac-10 honors and Udeze taking All-American. I guess people forgot about how badly this defense owned the Michigan front line. I'll put it up for you all again. 9 sacks people...against a line that only had 15 all season long before. Is LSU's line all that much better? Please.

We haven't even gotten to the part about how you deal with 6' 5" Mike Williams. Let's get one thing straight. Mark Clayton is no Mike Williams. Heck, I'd go as far as saying Mark Clayton is no Keary Colbert. You saw Michigan try to shut him down and he still pulled out a modest 8 catch, 88 yard day while Colbert stole MVP honors with some spectacular grabs. Once again, UM's secondary was highly regarded coming in, and got nailed quickly by Norm Chow's effective game plan and were embarrassed on the field.

And speaking of the bowl games, who's win was just simply dominant on both sides of the ball? I would say SC's. LSU gave OU plenty of chances at the end to get back in it, and overall it was just an ugly game. Catching a ball that's thrown right to you is also not exactly showing how great a defense is, either...but rather reflecting poor gameplay on the offensive side of the ball. Yeah it's nice White properly represented as Mr. Heisman QB playing in an important game. How easily we forgot that last year the kid stunk and couldn't handle pressure. Blame it on the injuries if you want, but unlike LSU, SC put up a performance worthy of a respected champion...one that showed how talented this young Trojan team is.

Say what you want, oh college football folk who has to hate on the western powers...let's just remember that the majority belief is that USC is the respected champion, while LSU is its partner in sharing that championship. I'm happy to know that. College football may love to screw the Pac-10 out of full championships, but at least we usually end up having the more impressive titleholder. Woot!
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Old 01-07-2004, 09:43 AM   #4
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USC, but it would be close. I respect the fact that the SEC is tougher, but USC blew out some impressive teams like Washington State and Michigan. (The game wasn't as close as the final score indicated, IMO). In fact, they blew out EVERYONE after their loss. There's plenty of "evidence" pointing towards LSU, but I have a feeling that on the field, USC would prevail.

Doug, you're right about the purpose of the BCS was in part to alleviate the stupidity of the poll voters, but when both polls have a team at #1 by a comfortable margin, well, they can't be THAT dumb, can they?

Anyway, this is a moot point, because I'm failry certain that a), they will enact the much-talked-about rule that states that if I team ends #1 in both polls, they are in the BCS national championship game no matter what, and b), I believe they will enact that much-talked-about post-bowl-games championship (although how that would serve us well in a year like 2002, when things were cut-and-dried, I don't know).
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:54 PM   #5
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I'll go with USC. A few points...

1. USC lost on the road, while LSU lost at home. I can't tolerate not defending your home turf. And the gap between Florida and Cal is VERY close as we take a look at the bowl games. Did the Gators suit up against Iowa ( Go Big Ten !)? 8-5 Florida and a what?....7-6 Cal team. Sounds close to me. Although beating the mighty choking Hokies isn't a huge accomplishment for Cal in their bowl game really. I'll concede Florida's tough schedule for Joey.

2. Beating Oklahoma is nothing. Are these guys the biggest bunch of cowards and chokers you've ever seen? The LSU-Oklahoma game was ugly on both ends. Word just in, Mauk dropped another snap !

I'm putting my final poll like this...

1. USC
2. Ohio State
3. LSU
4. Michigan
5. Iowa

I know, Big Ten bias. Here's the thing though. Oklahoma, LSU, and even USC do NOT beat Michigan in Ann Arbor this year. Plain and simple. We all saw that Mich-OSU game and it's IMPOSSIBLE to beat those guys up there. Ohio State, in my mind, has one loss to LSU's one, because playing Michigan in the Big House in 2003 will go down as a impossible mission in the lure of college football.
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Old 01-07-2004, 05:15 PM   #6
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^^^what is the use of saying that? Where would you rather play? At Michigan for a home game or in the Rose Bowl and the Tournament of Roses? To say the effort would be that much greater in Ann Arbor is pretty funny to me considering such a game has far less meaning than the Rose Bowl. I could say the same for USC and playing at the Coliseum...but who cares about that? And your heavy bias as a fan of the Buckeyes and their conference is even funnier. Frankly that poll is flawed simply because you have Michigan ranked lower than an opponent they beat and Iowa in the exact same position. And what about Washington State? Are they supposedly not the level of Iowa? please. I don't believe a No.3 team in the nation should struggle to defeat a 2003 Penn State team, frankly.

But at least we agree with who's No.1.
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Old 01-07-2004, 06:39 PM   #7
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The Michigan team you saw in the Rose Bowl was not the same Michigan team you saw in confrence play. We've seen on two occasions that Michigan cannot play out west. I still think USC would have won in another location but it would have been closer. However I still like LSU as the #1 team because they have a very powerful defense with great blitzes. They also have some good quickness on offense and can make big plays and put up points.
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Old 01-07-2004, 06:59 PM   #8
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Again, it's the fact that the game was in Ann Arbor El Jefe. I would love to see OSU-Mich at a neutral site this year. I think we would win. But so goes the rivalry and the chapters it writes every year. When the Big Ten goes to the Pac Ten and the Pac Ten comes to the Midwest, neither conference wins on the road very often. Michigan losing to Oregon isn't all that bad considering they had the guts to leave the Pelican State this year ( cough...LSU).

Oh yeah, that's a pretty nice Pac Ten bias you got going there yourself. Please name me the game where Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan, and even Purdue didn't show up like Washington State did for the Trojans. They laid down like dogs for them. PATHETIC, HEARTLESS LOSERS ! The Pac Ten is so up and down from game to game, it's hard to judge who is good.

In the Big Ten, the best conference in the regular season BY FAR, and one who did a little less then I would have liked in the bowl season, teams don't have " no shows" at the top. Comes with having REAL home game advantages when your fan support and home atmosphere actually means something. That's what separates Ohio State, Michigan, Iowa, and Purdue from Michigan State and Minnesota ( this year anyway). MSU and the Gophers go running for mommy when the adversity meter begins to rise( although I am rooting for MSU to complete their comeback journey and this year was a decent first step considering where they were last year). Look at Purdue fighting tooth and nail against Georgia in their bowl game. That's heart ! Something you need to play in the Big Ten.

I WOULD LOVE FOR ANY PAC TEN TEAM ( I'LL CONCEDE USC DOMINANCE AND THROW THEM OUT) TO COME TO HAPPY VALLEY IN NOVEMBER AND FACE JOE PA WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. It's called rivalry, heart, and real college athletics. And no one does it better then the Big Ten.

Ohio State barely beating PSU is nothing new here. We all know they win that way. Here's what else I know about Ohio State...

Last two years...

25-2 overall, one conference title, 1-1 vs Michigan, 2-0 in bowl games, one national title, and 14-0 in games at home or on a neutral field.

Since the inception of the BCS...

3 BCS bowl wins, tied for most in nation for OSU
3-0 in BCS bowl games, best winning percentage in nation for OSU.

And the Big Ten since the inception of the BCS...
6 Big Ten BCS bowl wins...most out of BCS conferences
10 BCS bowl teams...most out of the BCS conferences.

Toughest conference, toughest team the last two years...plain and simple.
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Old 01-07-2004, 07:24 PM   #9
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Ann Arbor isn't THAT invincible at home...we (Buckeyes) did, as I'm sure you remember, do it two years ago.
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:58 AM   #10
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If I recall, Purdue got whipped by Michigan 31-3 and Ohio State whimpered out at Wisconsin 17-10. I seem to also recall that was the same Badger team that was punked on the very same field 23-5 by UNLV. Oh yeah, and the same Buckeye team had that ever impressive 16-13 destruction of the mighty Aztecs of San Diego State. And of course, there was that lovely Wolverine attempt in Duckville. I guess a 3-5 bowl record for the year really speaks out about how great the Big 10 was in 2003.

Look, I give OSU credit for incredible grit and heart, but own up to when your team isn't impressive. Frankly the only game that impressed me this year was the win against K-State. It's rare the OSU offense performs like that, and it was nice to see. I'm thankful that I've met buckeye fans who do own up to poor performances on the field, even if the result was still a win. Winning ugly may ultimately be winning, but it does not reflect the same kind of respect usually garnered by winning teams.

The great thing about all of this is that this was supposed to be an off year for the Pac-10...something people seem to have forgotten. Even though they're in the top 5 in overall record for the past 4 seasons, no one thought Wazzu would do what they did...one achievement being the utter beatdown of Oregon at Autzen Staduim 55-16 where the Ducks were fresh off their big upset of UM. Granted, they are chokers...but if you watched the SC-Wazzu game you would've noticed that the Cougars were in the game until the middle of the 2nd half when SC's offense finally broke through. One of the best defenses in college football put up a tougher fight than that final score would have indicated, whereas on the other side the SC-UM score doesn't really reflect how dominant SC was against Big Blue.

It's nice you have to talk about how there's so much more heart and pride in football out in Big 10 land...and maybe you're right. After all, it's supposedly impossible that there are no fans with heart in the West. At least we don't burn down our own campuses when good things happen. And frankly, if you even knew what kind of great rivalries we have here in the Pac-10....you'd have a laugh or two about some of the things that's happened over the years. There's the killing of the Tree by the Cal Kids in the '90s or the numerous newspaper forgings during the years of the battle for the Victory Bell in Los Angeles, but you're right...we can't possibly be passionate about our teams out here...yeah.

Yes, I talk about the pac-10 in higher regard than the typical college football fan. Maybe it is perhaps I am exposed to them more than others, or maybe it is because I'm sick of having to hear that it is an inferior conference when it is clearly not. You might have a point about inconsistency regarding the teams in the conference, but there has always been consistent quality by Pac-10 teams every year against solid non-conference competition...and there's no questioning most non-conference scheduling out west, considering prior to the 2003 season the league had 7 of the 20 toughest schedules in the country.

but anyway...we're off topic. I just think a comment about how "invincible" a team is at home doesn't help regarding the question asked.
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Old 01-08-2004, 10:31 AM   #11
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Jefe, I for one, did not claim superiority of the Big Ten over the Pac 10 (USC, I think, is clearly the best team in either conference)...But I don't think the PAC-10 2 thru 10 teams compares favorably with Big Ten 2 thru 10, and as far as Michigan's trip up against Oregon and OSU's near miss with SDSU:Every team's losses look bad when you put them under a microscope. Do you think WSU would lose to Notre Dame NOW? Do you thing Michigan would lose to Oregon now?

I know, I know, OSU is the worst 11-2 team ever, blah, blah blah....Dave would probably be a more receptive audience to that line of thinking.

You cite Washington State's successes over the past 4 years, and good for them, but again I think if you go over the last 4 years, the Pac 10 still does not compare favorably with the Big Ten....I'll get into the head-to-heads and bowl records, etc. later when I have time.
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Old 01-08-2004, 02:15 PM   #12
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WSU is a program on the rise. Traditionally they have been the worst of the pac 10, only rising when a great qb came is (drew bledsoe, ryan lief). Thats not too surprising if you know that pullman is a small town in the middle of nowhere. Great coaching has led to their recent (and hopefully future) success.

As for who is better, I'd have to go with USC. I think the stat on sacks in the USC vs UM tells a lot about USC's defensive line.
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:41 PM   #13
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I like LSU because of my SEC allegiance, but I think USC has played better than anyone in the country the last couple months. So it's close, but I take USC. (How come there isn't a poll?)
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Old 01-08-2004, 05:01 PM   #14
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Kevin-

I just want to first say that I'm not claiming Pac-10 superiority over the Big 10. I'm simply just stirring the pot because this is a good year for the Pac 10 in a year that was supposed to be bad. If you want to go over the past four years, we can. Do you think Ohio State last year would have beaten USC last year? After their thrashing of Iowa, I think many in the nation felt the best team at that time was USC, while the national champion was Ohio State. Frankly, I think you underestimate the competitive nature of the Pac-10 against the Big-10 during the past four years. And let's be frank about one thing...when a conference like the Pac-10 has doormats competing for top 5-10 positions consistently, it only speaks of the incredible balance and parity that exists in this conference. Some may consider it weakness, but I consider it a testament to how tough it is to win out in the Pac-10. Even a great team such as USC couldn't do it this year...and if you watched them, they were as capable as a team could be to do it.

There is no team like Indiana in the Pac-10...a team that almost always loses. Every team has had their run in recent years, with the possible exception going to Cal, who last had a double-digit win season in '91. Even then, they endured some tough scheduling while at their low point, similarly for Arizona now.

Here's a breakdown of head-to-head records between the two conferences, including bowl games (indicated by a *).

Indiana: 0-1
Illinois: 2-2
Iowa: 1-1*
Michigan: 1-4*
MSU: 0-1
Minnesota: 1-0*
Northwestern: n/a
Ohio State: 3-1
Penn State: 0-1
Purdue: 2-2***(3 bowl games)
Wisconsin: 3-1*

so, a 13-14 record against the Pac-10 since the 2000 season with a 4-4 bowl record. How does the Pac-10 not stack up to the Big 10 again?
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Old 01-08-2004, 05:49 PM   #15
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Wow.

78, Jefe is like the calm, curseless reincarnation of #47...

I think SC is the best team in the land. I think LSU may have the nation's best defense, but not by a large margin. The second best defense goes to the Trojans. Best offense, SC. LSU is worse by a large, large margin, offensively. That would be the difference. I think SC would find it tough to score, but LSU would find scoring nearly impossible.

Kevin, I'm sure there's some Florida or Florida State team who went 11-2 who I'd call worse than the '03 Buckeyes...

Meanwhile, worst 12-2 team ever HAS to go to the punks from Norman. If LSU had a slightly less conservative offense, I think the NC game ends in a romp, and probably with a crying Stoops at halftime, not just a pouty, defiant one.

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