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Old 08-22-2008, 03:52 PM   #61
Montrovant
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I'm not certain I understand this. catman, are you saying this person was a trial lawyer, and after reading the accounts of the resurrection of Christ in the bible, decided they would be admissible in a court of law?

And if that is the case, are you saying this is proof of the resurrection occurring?
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
I'm not certain I understand this. catman, are you saying this person was a trial lawyer, and after reading the accounts of the resurrection of Christ in the bible, decided they would be admissible in a court of law?

And if that is the case, are you saying this is proof of the resurrection occurring?
I kinda got that impression after reading the link but was too afraid to ask the question in case his answer might be "yes"...

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Old 08-22-2008, 11:06 PM   #63
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Irish, he looked at the testimonies, weighed their admissability and came to the conclusion that they would be as admissable as any evidence he'd seen in any trial. The conclusion is that a judge would not determine that the evidence was false.
That's great that he did the research. I just have a problem with where he got all of his information from. If he had used other sources apart from the bible I wouldn't have such a hard time believing him, and the conclusion he came to was that the resurrection had actually happened. Not that a judge would determine the evidence as true.

"Greenleaf concluded that according to the jurisdiction of legal evidence the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the best supported event in all of history!" - Quoted from your source.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:52 AM   #64
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Irish, if he determined that all the information that was contained in the Bible was, in fact, admissable in court, what is your problem with it? Again, are you saying that you know more about admissability of evidence than Simon Greenleaf does?
The resurrection is supported by as most evidence as any other event in history. That is a fact.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:21 AM   #65
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But he didn't prove the evidence admissable in court. My problem is that the evidence of the resurrection comes from a book that is not meant to be taken literally. The bible is not a history book. He doesn't prove that it is admissable in court. He looks at the evidence, from an unreliable book, and comes to the conclusion that the resurrection actually happened. And not once am I claiming to know more about evidence and it's use in court than Greenleaf. In his piece he never uses the phrase "admissable in court."

The evidence of the resurrection comes from an unreliable source. The point I am trying to make is that not everything written in the bible actually happened. Some of it? Yes. All of it? No. Show me something outside of the bible that proves the resurrection and I will jump on that bandwagon.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #66
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Irish, Simon Greenleaf was the ranking expert on admissability of evidence. Again, are you saying that you know more than he did about this subject? It appears you are and you are wrong.
I will take his word that the stories told in the Bible are admissable until someone that actualoly knows what they are talking about tells me differently. That someone must be a legal scholar with more ability than he had. You are not that person.
You have not read all the pieces that he wrote on the subject. Perhaps you want to google Simon Greenleaf. You will find 64 pages of stories about him there. Even you should be able to find what you are looking for (or not looking for, as it would prove that you are, as I have said, wrong).
The resurrection of Christ is as provable as any event in history.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:55 PM   #67
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Give up Irish...

You are arguing with a man that is saying the resurrection of Jesus Christ is supported with as much evidence as any event in history.

This is a topic that is not worth arguing with cat about. His mind is closed.

Cat, if you really wish to argue this, please read one of the following books:

The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
- Christopher Hitchens

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - Sam Harris

Letter to a Christian Nation - Sam Harris

I've read the Bible. It's your turn to gain some perspective.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:58 PM   #68
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Fresh, I was raised by a Wiccan. I thought Christianity was, in a word, silly. I discovered I was wrong.
Christianity may not fit your lifestyle, or needs, but it fits my lifestyle nicely.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:02 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
I'm not certain I understand this. catman, are you saying this person was a trial lawyer, and after reading the accounts of the resurrection of Christ in the bible, decided they would be admissible in a court of law?

And if that is the case, are you saying this is proof of the resurrection occurring?
Simon Greenleaf was a lawyer that was one of the founders of the Harvard College of Law. He, and several of his friends, set out to disprove the "myth" of the resurrection. Upon exhaustive study of the testimonies he determined that all of the evidence they contained would be admissable in a court of law. There was nothing to disprove the event.
The resurrection is as well documented as any event in history.
The answer to your question is yes.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:02 PM   #70
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Fresh, I was raised by a Wiccan. I thought Christianity was, in a word, silly. I discovered I was wrong.
Christianity may not fit your lifestyle, or needs, but it fits my lifestyle nicely.
That's fine. Just don't claim that the Bible is a history book.

I'm sorry, but stories of a talking snake are not admissable in court... Though it could get you an insanity plea...
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:04 PM   #71
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Fresh, I am not claiming that Simon Greenleaf determined the entire Bible would be admissable in court. His study was, at first, only about the resurrection. He found that the testimonies contained in the Bible would be admissable in court, period.
As to insanity pleas, I will leave them to you.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:09 PM   #72
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Quote:
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Fresh, I am not claiming that Simon Greenleaf determined the entire Bible would be admissable in court. His study was, at first, only about the resurrection. He found that the testimonies contained in the Bible would be admissable in court, period.
As to insanity pleas, I will leave them to you.
Here's the point catman... He is taking all of the information and research FROM THE BIBLE. The Bible is the same story book that tells storys of talking snakes, and various other fairy tales.

Excuse me if I think the source is less than convincing.

As Irish has said several times, another source would be necessary in order to even enter the brink of "convincing."

Secondly, just because something is admissable in court doesn't make the claims true. My testimony is admissable in court, does that make everything I say true?

I'm sure I could find something in a Mother Goose book that is admissable in court, but I think you might question the case....
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:34 PM   #73
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I'm sure you could, Fresh. The point remains, unchallenged, that Simon Greenleaf (ranking expert on admissability of evidence of his time) said that the testimonies would be considered admissable. Have you read all of the 64 pages of references that come up when you google Simon Greenleaf? If not, perhaps you should discontinue your insistance that you might, in fact, have a point here. I will wait, I am a very patient man.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:42 PM   #74
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Admissable in court is not the same thing as "100% true."

Would you agree with that?
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:50 PM   #75
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The Bible is an ancient document and admissible as an exception to Hearsay. A newer Bible with the commentaries and what not, wouldn't be. I think in typical cases, you might hit a relevancy issue with the Bible and certainly in some cases are going to run into the admission of the Bible being more prejudicial to one side than probative. I am not exactly clear on what kind of court case catman would be trying to bring the Bible into...

But, uh, I don't think CK or anyone arguing against catman on this really cares about the admissibility in court. Admissibility in court does not instantly give something credibility.
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