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Old 08-17-2006, 12:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Graham
Try to explain it to me. I mean, do you honestly think that the norm is that folks that are high school dropouts and GED warriors are smarter than those that go to college? It's a more wacky concept than anything InTheNet has said...by about a million degrees, and he has said that it's OK to rape a stripper because she's a stripper.

If you wanted to say that there are rare cases of high school dropouts that surpass the average college student, fine, but I don't think that is what you're saying...
You're contriving "intelligence" as this one holy ideal that can only be acquired by one process and is not subjected to other factors (race, INCOME, and personality). There are also different forms of intelligence. Those who are "intelligent" at the moment are the ones who have acquired what society deems important...at that moment. Who is to say what skill is more important than another?

I have found that dealing with people who have LESS formal education is much easier in MANY...NOT ALL... situations.

This goes into where we are as a nation (a nation of consumers not producers) and what we value. It also gets into my leftist beliefs....far left.

Like I said, this goes deep into what people value and what is considered intelligent. Many social/economic factors are in here too. As a liberal, you should probably be seein' this Doug.

Last edited by buckeyefan78; 08-17-2006 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:14 AM   #32
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Bah, I had a much longer response typed up...but was in the quick reply and I guess I clicked outside the window and then went to backspace something and it took me back to the other page. The long and short of it, was this...

For starters, you're not exactly leftist in your beliefs when it comes to social/economic factors. It's fairly conservative to use social/economic factors as a wall to getting something accomplished. Social/economic factors exist, and I'm not ignoring them here. I'm not sure why you would even get that impression, seeing as it would probably require much larger discussion about education in this country. But, in just talking about higher education, it's something that I believe clearly should be strived for and made more widely available to those who want it. My ideals on college and lower levels of education are very liberal.

Second, I contend that dealing with people being easy or not should not be a factor in this discussion. It's simply moot. Ease of dealing with people and extracting information from people are two different areas completely. I had like two more paragraphs on this in the deleted post, but I think just a couple lines sums it up. I mean, really, what do you want...no information from the nicest person in the world or tons of information from someone hard to deal with? In the end, more is going to get done with the person who can get you information...even if they are difficult to deal with.

Quote:
Who is to say what skill is more important than another.
I don't really think this is the issue, though.

I'm also not contriving intelligence to be one holy ideal with a process. There are MANY different experiences that one will encounter with a college education.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:29 AM   #33
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I don't mean to blow you off here Doug. I tried to escape previously but you dragged me back in. :lol:

Like I said, it's just a matter of opinion and from my experience I believe the way I do. Not much more, not much less.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:44 AM   #34
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That's fine. I'm just trying to dig deeper and try to understand a bit more on the why. Maybe I just want to see some support for your statements. It's not really a matter of opinion, to be honest. I mean, everything is when it comes down to it, which is why I use italics where I do. The phrase just doesn't cut it for me. I just don't think you've provided much support for your stance and when it is something that I consider to be way out there, I'm going to try to pry that support out.

Like I said, I understand that you can run into intelligent college dropouts and GED warriors, but on the whole...the college education is going to win out. It simply opens up more doors to people. There's not one advantage from not going to college. You get into the work force 4 years earlier...kind of obsolete 25 years down the line. Where's the advantage in not going to college? It's certainly not completely addition by subtraction because the college experience is what the individual makes of it. To some, it is going to wind up a waste, but that likely would have been the same if that individual had not chosen to go to college. Why? Because college is contingent on the individual and what they put in to it.

Not to mention, on your previous post, you kind of try to have it two ways. One, you mention a point I think is insignificant, but you say that from folks without formal experience, you've had easier experiences, but then later you say that there are social/economic factors at play...which certainly hints, if not directly implies, that one of your issues with college are the class differences amongst those who attend and those who don't. Those are a bit contrasting. One, is essentially to hell (sorry Anthony) with college, while the other is to hell with college because not everyone is invited. So, if we could jump the social/economic boundaries does college become something you would recommend? If so, I just think it's silly to go with the first thought rather than trying to find ways to achieve the second.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:54 AM   #35
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Believe me Doug, the more you talk the more I disagree. :lol:

I didn't know someone was gonna take me to task for what I said at this level so in all honesty, I'm willing to admit/accept I'm not backing up what I'm saying. So it's wrong or just ignored. I don't mind. I didn't think people still listened to me on here. :lol:

Just give me some bad rep points.
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:55 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Graham

So, basically, you would have everyone who turns 18 do what it is they're going to do for the rest of their lives (work), rather than go to college? What exactly is the point/reason or benefit to that? It is certainly not for life experience because they're going to be doing that for their entire lives. (ok not the service, but if someone were given your choices and weren't going to join the service under the current college system, they're not doing it under yours...)

Why should people spend 4 years of their lives doing what is an eventuality when that 4 years is going to take away from those people finding out what they want to do with their lives. It just doesn't make sense. I can understand the argument that college is a waste of time, to some degree, I think it's completely misguided, but I can understand the argument being there. It's just that in what you've thrown out there, you don't replace it with anything better.
I don't want to assume I know what buckeye is thinking, but if he was influenced in this idea by Churchill, I think I know what he would say to this. Number one, the advantage is that colleges today are filled with kids who really have no serious interest in learning anything. They are there...simply to get a degree to work. Making people go into manual labor or the armed forces would make them want to go to college and learn things and become educated presumably. That's the point behind the whole thing. Buckeye said you could go to college after a few years of that if you wanted to.

Also, I think its a mistake...and a widespread, deeply rooted mistake, to think that college is all about "getting educated" in the sense that you learn a career which will make you more money than if you didn't go to college. To me, college is about expanding your horizons, learning new things, challenging what you already believed, reading the great ideas of the past...in short, things which don't exactly translate into the work world. Its about becomming a more rounded and thoughtful human being. That is something a little harder to realize if you don't appreciate the great opportunity a university education provides. What buckeye said would lead students to appreciate it. That's the advantage to it from what I see.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:08 AM   #37
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A little closer Ricky, but still millions of miles away. Just sayin'...LOL
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Also, I think its a mistake...and a widespread, deeply rooted mistake, tha college is all about "getting educated" in the sense that you learn a career which will make you more money than if you didn't go to college. To me, college is about expanding your horizons, learning new things, challenging what you already believed, reading the great ideas of the past...in short, things which don't exactly translate into the work world. Its about becomming a more rounded and thoughtful human being.
I agree with this completely, just don't agree with the part about how it would possibly lead to students appreciating it more. Like I said, college is what you put into it.

The problem with what buckeye says in the whole, "you could go to college after a few years of that if you wanted to" is that a lot of people don't realize exactly what it is they want from life. While a lot of people are in college just to get a degree to work, that degree is still going to benefit them in life more than a GED will. You need to create opportunity for success. As a liberal, I figured buckeye would have been noticing these things.

And that just addresses those that are there just to float by college. The majority of people in college hit on many of the points that you stated about what college is about. If you eliminate some of these people by de-emphasizing a college education, you're taking away a lot of potential.

Quote:
Believe me Doug, the more you talk the more I disagree.
That's fine...the more I talk, the more I realize just how right I am.

Quote:
I didn't know someone was gonna take me to task for what I said at this level so in all honesty, I'm willing to admit/accept I'm not backing up what I'm saying. So it's wrong or just ignored. I don't mind. I didn't think people still listened to me on here.
While you might not think it because I didn't heed the advice you gave me in PM about another poster, I do listen to what you say, which is the reason for wanting to see it backed up. I mean, in the end I might think it wrong anyway, but that's better than ignored...I'd say.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:28 AM   #39
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That's fair enough Doug. I made comments that you've challenged me on and I haven't been willing to back them up. Understanding that this is a message board and that may have happened, I believe my behavior...in this situation...doesn't speak to well for me.

I'm not quite sure what else I can tell you here. If it ruins my credibility or you don't take me seriously, that's fine. I'm all about accountability. I'm willing to accept the consequences here.

Honestly, I just don't feel like talking about it anymore.
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78

Honestly, I just don't feel like talking about it anymore.
Damn....just when I was gettin' ready to pile on.....

Oh, wait....I didn't go to college. I guess I'm on your side then....
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:40 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Tarkus
Damn....just when I was gettin' ready to pile on.....

Oh, wait....I didn't go to college. I guess I'm on your side then....
:lol:

I'm about 15 credit hours away from a master's in higher ed. Tark. That means I'll have one to spare. It's all yours. :lol:
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Old 08-17-2006, 02:44 AM   #42
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I'm all for handouts....:thumbup:

Just make sure you send instructions how to use it. I'll frame it & hang it on my corrugated metal wall in my living room....
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Old 08-17-2006, 08:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Graham
It's a more wacky concept than anything InTheNet has said...
I would explain to you what an ad hominem attack is but there again, you seem to already know.
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Old 08-17-2006, 10:24 AM   #44
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Can't we all just get along?:thumbup:
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Old 08-17-2006, 01:26 PM   #45
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Before getting into my 10...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheNet
I would explain to you what an ad hominem attack is but there again, you seem to already know.
Well, I certainly do, but if you think there was an ad hominem attack here, then allow me to explain to you what an ad hominem attack is. An ad hominem attack is when you divert an argument to make a personal attack on someone, for instance attacking them in a manner which would question their motives rather than the substance of their argument.

In this instance, we don't have an ad hominem attack. I am arguing something with buckeye and simply invoking something that will serve as a comparison. Why, because buckeye knows that I find many of your statements to be wacky. So, rather than me saying to buckeye that his statement was something that I didn't agree with, I showed the level that we were apart on this issue by quickly making a comparison. It certainly wasn't an ad hominem attack on the person I was discussing things with.

Now, was it an ad hominem attack on you? Well, I wasn't engaging you in any discussion. So, it certainly wasn't ad hominem attack. You may consider it an attack on you and that it fine. But, it is not an ad hominem attack. I don't think it comes as a surprise to many people that I, the person who probably disagrees with you the most in terms of actually responding, thinks that you say many things that I am going to consider wacky. It certainly can be constrewed as an attack on you. But, it certainly is not an ad hominem attack.

Quote:
Can't we all just get along?
I think InTheNet and I do get along. We just disagree on a lot of things, which is why I used him as a comparison in making my point to buckeye. There is no one else here I disagree with as much as I do with ITN. And I think all things consider, even if my "wacky" line with him in it is taken as an attack, I've responded to a lot of things ITN has said, engaged in dialouge with him on issues where others have just considered a troll and even defended him in PMs before. We just disagree. I think a lot of what he says is wacky, someone agreeing with him likely doesn't find what he says to be wacky.





And, here's my Ten...

10 Things I would change about America...


1. I'm stealing this one from bama, but expanding a bit..."Much higher tax rate on the very rich and no income tax for people making $15,000.00 OR LESS PER YEAR." I would probably set at 25k-30k and make it a household type deal, with exceptions such as like an additional 2k-3k bump per 16-22yr old working. As for taxing otherwise, if the ceiling were 30k it wouldn't be no tax for the person making 30k and complete tax for the person making 31k. Just the 1k would be taxed and so on. I'm fairly flexible on where I'd make the tax floor be located, just using 25-30k for the sake of this. Overall, tax the rich more. Robin Hood influenced the hell out of me as a kid, what can I say? I love the story. A lot of the things I want to do, that I think would make America better, happen to require money. Need to get it somewhere.

2. Name Dublin Mike Supreme Pooh BEAR over all the land.

3. Focus more attention to getting people off of drugs. I know it is not as simple as putting money towards something, but we put very little towards it, despite drugs being illegal. Money is the most obvious thing to direct to this, but it also goes to directing time to a problem rather than ignoring it. We need to get people off drugs so that the incentive to sell is reduced.

I'm going to stop short of saying legalize drugs to finance this, but if someone has a legalize drugs plan in their head, I would love to hear it. I'm not talking marijuana, but cocaine, heroine, crack, etc. I'm actually really interested in whether anyone has thought it through to the point of REALLY minimizing the backfire possibilities...which are harsh as hell and the reason why I wouldn't legalize narcotics.

4. More uniform police officers on the streets rather than undercover officers. Philadelphia is actually doing this, and I think it is a good move. Undercover officers are probably the best of the best, especially when it comes to something as dangerous as narcotics because you have to deal with the living. But, you can arrest every drug dealer in a city tomorrow and by the end of the month, drugs are going to flow through the city just as easily. There is a huge problem with people feeling safe, and an increased visible police presence will help with that.

5. I would do one of two with the death penalty...completely abolish it (my personal belief) or enforce it strongly. Even though I'm against that personally, the majority of the country appears to be in favor of the death penalty and the only way it can be successful is if used strongly and consistently. The way it is right now serves no purpose.

6. Longer minimum sentences for offenses such as concealed handgun, drug dealing, robbery, a slew of other crimes that plague our youth, for those under the age of 25. Would then tie the sentence in with creating more expansive educational programs in prison and connect the sentence directly to the effort to learn that an inmate puts in. A lot of time for offenses where someone is only in county prison, they are not into any programs as they don't have much time with the inmate, but I think we have to make more of an effort to show people that there is more to the world than the lives they are living before they mess up to the point where they're in jail long enough to take part in those programs.

7. Increase incentives for middle class small business owners. Encourage development there, as opposed to only helping out big business.

8. Put more money towards paying people to work certain government jobs. Programs that get people working with poorer communities in this country and in countries in Africa and South/Central America need financing. They need people to go work in these programs. A lot of people finish college and would love to get a job helping people, but there just isn't money there and reality is that people need to begin their lives. Hell, look at the amount of people that leave prosecution work for defense simply for the money.

9. Work more with Mexico more to get their economy working. In the meantime, allow more legal immigration from Mexico. Force employers to pay Mexican workers the same minimum wage that Americans get and harsh penalties for those paying them under the table. Work closely with Mexico to make sure that money that gets back to Mexico doesn't find its way into the hands of a cartel or otherwise act as the equivalent to burning money. Ultimately, we need a relationship with our border neighbor to where they are a strong country and their citizens have an economy of their own that does not force them to leave their homes and family just to survive. At the same time, I'll toss this in rather than using up one of my 10 on it (already wasted one making Mike the pooh bear!), but if you're going to require English...put some damn money to teaching it. What, people that come here speaking spanish don't want to learn English? That's crap...they just need the opportunity to learn english.

10. Middle school and high school reading lists need changes. They need more modern tales that they can relate to. Something kids can give a damn about. Let them find classics when they're a bit older. Overall, I think lower education in this country needs to be reformed to be more challenging to students.
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