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Old 04-16-2008, 05:19 PM   #166
philabramoff
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Cat, CK, and others...I'll get back to you guys next week.
Have to go now.

But...I'm really worried about the gas prices right now.
Out here in SoCal, it's starting to hit 4/gal in some places.

We HAVE to drill in Alaska and off-shore, unless we WANT
to see 5-6 dollar a gallon gas.

Furthermore, we ARE seeing the start of "stagflation" (a stagnant
economy alongside inflation)...just like the Carter years...

[BIG SIGH....]

Those who do not know their history will be bound to repeat it...
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:16 PM   #167
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I don't disagree that we need more petroleum production in our country. We also need to do more with bio-energy. We can and will become more effecient in the production of alternative forms of energy.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:54 AM   #168
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An interesting angle here is generational: A lot of people under, say, 50 years old regard potential energy sources like solar and wind power to be a pie-in-the-sky, "hippie" kind of thing, and they're likely to resist the notion that this is the way forward (already, compact fluorescent light bulbs have been cattily referred to as "hippie bulbs").

Drilling in the Arctic and/or offshore, however, is something tangible which they can relate to - and as this generation starts filling the halls of Congress, this could be a factor as the energy debate rages on.

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Old 04-17-2008, 09:46 AM   #169
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No, no, no Phil.

We need to move AWAY from oil. Drilling for more of it will only perpetuate our dependence on oil. Secondly, we don't even know how much oil is in Alaska. Estimates that I've heard said that it wouldn't even be enough to last this country a year... Is that worth it? Hell no. Forget about oil. Move away from oil. The sooner, the better.

As for the economy, I ask you to write your republican congressmen and the president. Once again, under republican leadership, the gap between rich and poor has grown larger. The number of rich people has decreased, and the number of poor people has increased. Thre exact opposite of what happened under Clinton. Under Clinton, the gap between rich and poor became smaller. More people became rich, and less people were living in poverty.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that supply-side economics is retarded.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:00 PM   #170
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Yeah, I mean, the "trickle-down" theory is about as condescending and backwards as they get.

Remember, thanks to George W. Bush, it is highly likely that you pay a higher income tax % than multi-billionaire Warren Buffet, who, by his own admission, paid his full share and didn't try to dodge any taxes. How many multi-billionaires don't try to dodge taxes at all? This has been the best president in history for the top 5%, which now controls 60% of the wealth in America. It's also been the worst for the bottom 60%, which only controls 4%, with the bottom 40% now controlling .2%

If anyone wants to compare GWB to Reagan, the top 1% actually got poorer during Reagan's presidency.

Electric cars are my favorite that I've read about. Electric cars use fewer joules per mile and cost less to maintain than most, if not all, other forms of energy. Within 5 years or so, the technology will exist to increase the current range of almost 150 miles, and reduce power usage under the current .2kwh/mile. (If you leave you computer on 24/7, that's about 6kwh/day, enough for about 30 miles.) There is no more reason to have "power plants" in our cars. Energy can be produced much more efficiently in the form of electricity at a real power plant. Also, electric cars would the switch from fossil fuels to renewable energy easier for everyone. Could you imagine you car running on solar, wind, or even nuclear or geo-thermal energy? Electric cars make it possible. As long as this country remains functional, we will never "run out" of electricity.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:50 PM   #171
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How are drilling in ANWR and supply-side economics related?



Of course we should explore alternative fuels AS we utilize our own oil reserves and those of places like Canada. We undermine our own national security and prop up the regimes of thugs with each barrell of oil we bring in from the Middle East. Anything that lessens that amount is good as far as I'm concerned. Drill in Alaska. Drill off the gulf. Invest in these alternative fuels. Ride a bike to work. I don't care just get it done!
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:34 PM   #172
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I'm in here on a Friday afternoon for a short time, for a meeting,
so I have a bit of time to chime in today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
We need to move AWAY from oil. Drilling for more of it will only perpetuate our dependence on oil. Secondly, we don't even know how much oil is in Alaska. Estimates that I've heard said that it wouldn't even be enough to last this country a year... Is that worth it? Hell no. Forget about oil. Move away from oil. The sooner, the better.
Sure we have to develop new forms of energy, obviously.
But, if those new great forms of energy are going to be here even
as soon as five years from now, what are we supposed to do
in the meantime??? We're heavily dependent upon oil, now.

Furthermore, what you say about Alaska isn't what I've heard. I've
heard that there is potentially enough oil there to keep us off of Middle
Eastern oil for decades. I certainly think it's worth displacing a few
caribou to go after that huge oil tank we own up there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
As for the economy, I ask you to write your republican congressmen and the president. Once again, under republican leadership, the gap between rich and poor has grown larger. The number of rich people has decreased, and the number of poor people has increased. Thre exact opposite of what happened under Clinton. Under Clinton, the gap between rich and poor became smaller. More people became rich, and less people were living in poverty.
As I have explained before...Clinton was VERY CONSERVATIVE on fiscal
issues, save for a few tax increases in some circles. Moreover, he was
working with a REPUBLICAN congress, benefitted from the dot-com boom
and the end of the Cold War.

Currently, Presideny Bush, in addition to being an unfortunate government
expander, himself, since the start of 2007, he's had a very liberal, very
uncooperative Democratic congress to work with (which has had some of
the lowest approval ratings in US history, even among Democrats).

I'm fearing a potential Obama presidency that will respond to our current
slide into recession and stagflation with MORE taxes, that will create MORE
unemployment.

I remember Carter, and I DON'T want any repeats.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:45 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I, as one that has a "stake" in ethanol (no I'm not invested in a company, nor do I farm anymore), like seeing the farmers of my area making some money. They nearly all use their own products whenever they can. They use biodiesel and ethanol blends in their tractors, trucks and personal vehicles.
I would have no problem removing the subsidy for the product. If it can make it on its own, fine. If not, also fine. Ethanol can be produced to sell for about $2/gallon with a reasonable profit for the producers. The starch is all that is removed from the corn and the "mash" is sold to local cattle and hog farmers as feed. It is not wasted. Alternative products are being used -- switchgrass, lawn-clippings, etc., so there should be no problem with the price of food rising to an unacceptable level.
Cat, I wanted to respond to this point here.

I've heard of high-yield seed that would produce corn in the higher amounts,
needed, but then there is the issue of increased acreage necessary to grow
the corn.

Ethanol has also caused some problems in that it requires a lot of energy
(i.e. oil) to produce the stuff, plus it has to be shipped via truck. It cannot
be piped. The shipping alone uses up a lot of energy, and creates tons of
pollution. So, it has issues.

Unfortunately, many farmers are benefitting from this state. The strain
on the corn market has increased demand for other crops, such as cotton,
wheat, and other grains, thus much higher prices. Farmers in America are
generally doing really well right now. Unfortunately, we are seeing serious
rippling effects throughout the world, the most serious being the food
revolts in many third world countries right now, due to seriously rising
food costs.

Other biodiesels and alt energy sources, I'm in favor of them in general,
provided they do not create more problems than they solve.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:14 AM   #174
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Which is precisely why I support continued research into ethanol. New technologies are going to make it easier, more efficient and less expensive to produce. Ethanol is made in South America from excess sugar cane. We had an excess of corn when our industry was begun and the government under Mr. Clinton and Bush granted tax-exempt status for these plants, at least for a while. Now that the industry is well-established, I have no problem with these exemptions being removed. If the industry can survive on its own, fine. If not, it should not be artificially propped up.
On to the cost of food. It costs less, with the costs relative to inflation, to feed people now than it did 30 years ago. Our food prices have not risen as much as people think they have.
Farmers enjoy paying taxes -- it means they are making money. When farmers make money, they buy equipment and supplies. They do not put their money under a matress.
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:08 AM   #175
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It's still yet to be proven that ethanol even uses less oil to make than gasoline so far, so I'm against it for the most part.

From what I've heard, there is fewer than a 6 month supply of oil in the ANWR. And the caribou would not be displaced, they would most likely end up slowly dying off. We cannot recklessly endanger yet another species. We have already witnessed the biggest mass extinction in world history since before the dinosaurs.

IMO, a food surplus is good, and that our energy production should not be tied to our food industry. We're setting ourselves up for another, more severe "dustbowl" What happens then? Do we eat, or drive? Remember, ethanol also saps water reserves in it's production, making a potential drought even worse.
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:33 AM   #176
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I'd say the real amount of oil up there is someeeeeewwwwhhhheeeerrreeee in-between "six months" and "decades". :lol:

But yes, we should sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the caribou. :lol: :lol:

Guess what, the only "species" we "endanger" with our current oil policy.....IS MAN!
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:12 AM   #177
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The ANWR is estimated to contain somewhere in between roughly 5 and 10 billion barrels, the higher estimate approx. equal to almost 2 years of oil at current consumption rates. A sizeable amount, but not significant enough to drill there, yet. That oil isn't going anywhere, and the price of oil is only going up, so it seems to me that a suitable comprimise is sitting on the oil until we are in dire need for it, which isn't currently the case.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:25 AM   #178
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Thank you deavo. I think I'd go insane without your input.

Quote:
But yes, we should sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the caribou.

Guess what, the only "species" we "endanger" with our current oil policy.....IS MAN!
Ricky, don't you think you are misplacing your efforts? You do realize that we could all be driving electric cars right now right? We could be completely independent of oil, if our government wasn't in bed with the oil companies.

Phil, on the economy. Clinton was not "exxtremely conservative." He made compromises with republicans, but his economic policies where liberal in many ways. He taxed the rich at very high rates. He provided more government assistance than the current president. He also gave more tuition assistance than any other president.

Bill Clinton was economically liberal, but he made necessary compromises in order to get things done. Don't try to take credit for the best economic president since FDR. He was a fiscal liberal.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:14 PM   #179
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Fresh, in some areas, electric cars are a very good idea. In others, they are not. Nothing is perfect.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:17 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Fresh, in some areas, electric cars are a very good idea. In others, they are not. Nothing is perfect.
Well, I can agree with that, but my point was, we COULD be independent of oil right now. It is a choice by those in power to force us into using oil.
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