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Old 07-28-2008, 12:13 AM   #271
philabramoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
On issues like abortion, equality, or gay rights however - a change in position is a "flip-flop" and represents lack of character.
CK, there are examples of flip-flops on the left, too...

But, I'd like to address this point, specifically, right now.

As for changing one's mind on the abortion issue, sometime it is
genuine, sometimes it is politically expedient. Moreover, it is
very hard to truly judge whether one is sincere or not in such a
change.

For example...
Jesse Jackson was vehemently pro-life back in the '70's, but changed
his tune when he became a leader in the Democratic Party in the
early-to-mid '80's. Totally personal and political move. But, then
again, Jackson is hardly a paragon of sincerity.

On the other hand, I would say that Mitt Romney's change is somewhat
sincere, having, as he described, seen the clearer evidence of life in
the womb though ultra-sound, etc. Cannot be sure, but this change
of position does seem to be more sincere.

Other notable changers are: George Bush Sr., John McCain, and Al Gore.

For my part, I'll leave it to God to judge their hearts. I'll make my
best well-thought-through guess in the ballot box.

My position...while there is room in any arena to have differences of
opinions, changes of mind and heart, disagreements on principles, I
have come to the conclusion that there is one issue on which one
side is right, and the other side is wrong, period, end of issue:

Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, unborn life, and
should have never been made "legal" nor ever even considered as
such. We are a skilled enough, compassionate enough, and
industrious enough nation to address the problems of teen pregnancy,
unplanned pregnancy, economic problems, medical issues, etc, in ways
that do not result in the death of an innocent human life.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:43 AM   #272
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Quote:
Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, unborn life, and
should have never been made "legal" nor ever even considered as
such. We are a skilled enough, compassionate enough, and
industrious enough nation to address the problems of teen pregnancy,
unplanned pregnancy, economic problems, medical issues, etc, in ways
that do not result in the death of an innocent human life.
I am for equal rights for women, so I must be pro-choice.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:47 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
I am for equal rights for women, so I must be pro-choice.
Sorry, CK, not to be disrespectful to you in particular, but that
is a bullcrap stance that too many people take, and used to
justify the direct act of killing a human being in the lowest stages
of development.

Nobody EVER would say that a woman should be allowed to
physically BEAT her small child, and call it "pro-choice" on a
woman's right to "do with her child what she would wish"...so why
does the direct act of killing the most innocent of all human
life get a pass?

This really makes me angry, because life in the womb has really
come to be worth nothing in this country, nor worldwide. So
much for the "liberals" being the champions of the weakest and
most defenseless of humanity.

"Pro-choice" is also a bullcrap word. Choice to do what? It
is the so-called "choice" to kill an unborn child. Point blank.
Fact. Moreover, liberals fully know this...which is why they
have adopted the word "pro-choice" rather than saying what
their position really is: pro-legalized-killing-of-an-unborn-child.

Our collective society has a broken moral compass.

Again, it's the one issue where one side is correct (defending human
life), and the other side is wrong (it's okay to kill an unborn human life).

Moreover, no argument will ever change my mind on this point, because
I am simply stating cold, hard fact.
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:54 PM   #274
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I don't support abortion.

I support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

Until a child is born it is part of her body.

Sorry, I don't want men telling women what they HAVE to do with their bodies.

Pregnancy can kill a woman. Only the woman and her physician can know the risks of pregnancy. I don't want some Bible-thumper telling a doctor how to treat his patient, or a woman how to make medical decisions.

Republicans are "pro-life," until the baby is born. Yeah, defend the unborn - but once he's born - no welfare, no after-school programs, no food stamps, no day care, no health care, no assistance at all... And when you turn 18, off to the middle-east you go.

Give me a break.

Abortion is a necessary evil in a complicated world.

Yes, it is sad that unborn fetuses are destroyed. But unfortunately, not every woman is ready for a child, and sometimes young people make mistakes. There are not enough foster parents, there are not enough adoptive parents.

People are going to have abortions, whether it is legal or not. Making illegal will force young women into "dark alley abortions." They will still happen, except women will die from the procedure.

I don't like abortion - it is disgusting - but it is necessary.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:29 PM   #275
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Is this part of this conversation?


Always trying to sniff out the RIGHT!

Last edited by DETMURDS; 07-30-2008 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:50 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETMURDS View Post
Is this part of this conversation?


Always trying to sniff out the RIGHT!
Have you ever thought of joining a debate team? Or maybe you were a member of one in college-- it wouldn't surprise me: you have a way with words-- a very very elegant and flowing style of prose.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:57 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
I don't support abortion.

I support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.

Until a child is born it is part of her body.

Sorry, I don't want men telling women what they HAVE to do with their bodies.

Pregnancy can kill a woman. Only the woman and her physician can know the risks of pregnancy. I don't want some Bible-thumper telling a doctor how to treat his patient, or a woman how to make medical decisions.

Republicans are "pro-life," until the baby is born. Yeah, defend the unborn - but once he's born - no welfare, no after-school programs, no food stamps, no day care, no health care, no assistance at all... And when you turn 18, off to the middle-east you go.

Give me a break.

Abortion is a necessary evil in a complicated world.

Yes, it is sad that unborn fetuses are destroyed. But unfortunately, not every woman is ready for a child, and sometimes young people make mistakes. There are not enough foster parents, there are not enough adoptive parents.

People are going to have abortions, whether it is legal or not. Making illegal will force young women into "dark alley abortions." They will still happen, except women will die from the procedure.

I don't like abortion - it is disgusting - but it is necessary.
Fresh, the only time abortion is necessary is when the mother's life would be put in jeopardy by carrying the child to term or if the child is determined by tests to be inviable. I do not have a problem with termination of a pregnancy in these cases, but abortion on demand is wrong and must be abolished.
As to no welfare, if people would care for their own children, welfare would be far less important.
As to 18 year olds getting sent to the Middle East, you are sounding like John Kerry (get a good education and you'll be OK, don't and you'll end up in Iraq). Unfortunate to see that was not an isolated opinion.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:29 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, unborn life, and should have never been made "legal" nor ever even considered as such. We are a skilled enough, compassionate enough, and
industrious enough nation to address the problems of teen pregnancy,
unplanned pregnancy, economic problems, medical issues, etc, in ways
that do not result in the death of an innocent human life.


Unfortunately the economic dimension of the abortion issue indelibly marks the prohibitive majority of "pro-lifers" as hypocrites, since more than 99% of them are totally on board the Social Darwinist bandwagon regarding economic issues (abolish welfare, shove as much of the tax burden as possible onto the lowest income earners, etc.). Once the baby is born, s/he is on his/her own, to sink or swim. It's just like the opponents of rent control in San Francisco pay lip service to the idea of providing the needy with a direct subsidy to help pay their rent - then every time such a measure actually appears on the ballot, the landlord groups spend tens of millions of dollars to defeat it.

Until politicians like Congressman James Oberstar (D-Minnesota) and former Pennsylvania governor and current U.S. Senator Bob Casey Sr. and Jr., respectively, become the rule on the anti-abortion side rather than the truly bizarre exceptions they actually are, I will remain steadfastly pro-choice.

(And no - I did not post this to appease CKFresh - although it will no doubt have that effect).
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:44 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
(And no - I did not post this to appease CKFresh - although it will no doubt have that effect).
:lol:

Come on Anthony. Give me more credit than that!

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Old 08-01-2008, 03:00 AM   #280
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If someone asked me to denote where I stand overall politically, I would cite Ed Koch during his last term as mayor of New York City as my "psychic twin."
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:24 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
I don't support abortion.
I support a woman's right to choose what to do with her body.
This is a cop-out, and pro-abortion double-talk that's been going on
since the issue existed.

The "right to choose" is a meaningless concept, unless it is determined
"choice to do what". In this case, the "choice" to kill a human being.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Until a child is born it is part of her body.
I can prove you wrong on this. The unborn child is not a part of
the woman's body
. The unborn child has separate DNA. It is
biologically demonstrably a separate human being. The only difference
is that the unborn child is internal and physically connected by
the umbilical cord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Abortion is a necessary evil in a complicated world.
Glad you acknowledge that abortion is "evil". However, it is not
"necessary". A direct act of murder is never "necessary".

Moreover, I agree that this is a "complicated world". Thus, my assertion
that we are a creative enough, resourceful enough, and compassionate
enough to come up with solutions to the problem of unplanned pregnancy
other than the one option that results in one dead child.

(BTW...please don't place me in the camp of those, such as Republicans
in general, who are blamed for caring for the unborn child only until
the child is born. As I've said before, I'm an independent...I search for
the best way to approach issues, and much more CAN be done to assist
those in these unfortunate situations...if we want to.)

We're just lazy, and would, as a society, take the easy way out and
just make abortion legal.

Again, and I'm not stating this because it's "my view" as it were, that
abortion is a direct act of killing, not a matter of opinion, and the one
issue where one side is right and the other side is wrong, period.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:19 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETMURDS View Post
Is this part of this conversation?


Always trying to sniff out the RIGHT!
Det, I probably agree more with you, politically, than I do most of
the people on this site, but would you please try to make some more
constructive contributions. I mean really.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:41 AM   #283
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Quote:
This is a cop-out, and pro-abortion double-talk that's been going on
since the issue existed.

The "right to choose" is a meaningless concept, unless it is determined
"choice to do what". In this case, the "choice" to kill a human being.
Not a cop-out, the truth.

I hate abortion, just like you probably hate war.

Still, I recognize that it is necessary, just as you see war as necessary I'm sure.

Quote:
I can prove you wrong on this. The unborn child is not a part of
the woman's body. The unborn child has separate DNA. It is
biologically demonstrably a separate human being. The only difference
is that the unborn child is internal and physically connected by
the umbilical cord.
Can the "unborn child" survive if the mother dies? Nope.

Quote:
Glad you acknowledge that abortion is "evil". However, it is not
"necessary". A direct act of murder is never "necessary".
What if it is going to happen anyway?

I look at abortion in some way, like I look at drug use.

People are going to have abortions, just like people are going to use drugs.

If you make it illegal, you make it less safe, and more destructive. Legalizing these thigns allows for trainied professionals to help people make the best decisions. It allows for regulatory standards and it saves lives.

As I said, if you make it illegal, women aren't going to stop having abortions. The difference is, many of these women will die in the process.

Making it illegal won't save the lives of unborn children, but instead it will take the lives of many mother too.

Quote:
Moreover, I agree that this is a "complicated world". Thus, my assertion
that we are a creative enough, resourceful enough, and compassionate
enough to come up with solutions to the problem of unplanned pregnancy
other than the one option that results in one dead child.
I suggest you get together with many "right-wingers" who oppose abortion and try to convince them to teach "safe sex" in schools.

The idea of abstinence only education is simply naive. By refusing to teach children about condoms and safe sex, more pregnancies result, and in turn, more abortions occur.

The people that oppose abortion are the same people who create an atmosphere where children are unprepared for sexual activity.

Teach kids how to use condoms and birth control and it will reduce the number of abortions in this country.

Quote:
Again, and I'm not stating this because it's "my view" as it were, that
abortion is a direct act of killing, not a matter of opinion, and the one
issue where one side is right and the other side is wrong, period.
Well, that's kind of rude...

More people in this country are pro-choice than pro-life.

You don't have to agree with abortion to be pro-choice. Many of us simply recognize the problems with making it illegal.

Do you have to be an alcoholic to think that alcohol should be legal? Of course not.

Somethings are necessary in order to prevent more danger and more problems.

Illegalizing abortion would be devestating, and the blood of millions of women would be on the hands of the "pro-lifers."
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:11 PM   #284
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Thumbs down

I've heard these arguments in favor of legalized abortion for 30 years, now.
All of them faulty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Can the "unborn child" survive if the mother dies? Nope.
First of all, yes, if beyond the point of "viability".
Secondly, one may also make the argument that a woman could leave her
newborn child in a dumpster, with the same claim "could the baby survive
without the mother...no."

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
People are going to have abortions, just like people are going to use drugs.
Another cop-out. How come we don't apply this line of reasoning to
anything else that's immoral. People are still going to steal...people are
still going to cheat...etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
As I said, if you make it illegal, women aren't going to stop having abortions. The difference is, many of these women will die in the process.
Not if they don't have the abortion in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Well, that's kind of rude...
I'm not making my assertion to be "rude", I'm stating a fact, like
2+2=4. An unborn child is biologically demonstrably a human life.
Abortion is a direct act of killing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
More people in this country are pro-choice than pro-life.
Then, more people in this country are wrong than right. Morality by
popular vote is a dangerous road that humanity has gone down
throughout history, leading to tremendous, flawedly justified, evils.
Recall that slavery was kept legal at the founding of this country
because of "popular vote" at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Illegalizing abortion would be devestating, and the blood of millions of women would be on the hands of the "pro-lifers."
I've heard that many times before, and it's unfair. Posters that show a
woman in a bodybag, who died in an illegal abortion. "Pro-Lifers are trying
to kill woman", is what is said. So called "Pro-Lifers" like myself strive for
a world whereby abortion is not even in the human lexicon. Even if this
vision is somewhat unrealistic (especially with the way we have become
so deeply intrenched in a society where abortion-on-demand is normal),
can't we at least have the humanity to try to strive for it.

As far as "blood on the hands...", there's already the blood of 40 million+
dead unborn children on the hands of "Pro-choicers" already, if you want
to play that game.

You see, CK, and as we've been discussing for the past several months,
now, you and I recognize problems with our society and humanity. We
vary on many of our visions, and we recognize all the grey areas. You
are not my enemy, nor I yours. Still, as much as I have legitimately
tried to see the "other side" of this issue, I cannot get past that
simple fact that the unborn child is a human life, and dies in the
abortion process for no other reason than being unwanted.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:07 PM   #285
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phil, I'm curious about specifics of your abortion views. Do you feel the same for any stage of pregnancy? How do you feel about things like the morning-after pill?

Also, how do you feel about execution, or something like 'pulling the plug' of someone on life support?
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I find it strange that people sit at home, around the dinner table and think, "Damnit! People are gay!"
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