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Old 01-09-2007, 11:57 AM   #16
Montrovant
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Originally Posted by IntheNet View Post
Permit be to remain skeptical; whose interests are at priority here, the baby whose amniotic fluid is taken, or the person it is taken for? Care to set up that situation on an ethical chart and see where motive falls?
As I already posted, the article said the amniotic fluid was donated. I don't know what that means specifically, but it certainly possible that this was amniotic fluid already extracted for other reasons (it's not an uncommon thing, as various tests can be done using amnio) and was not taken just for the purposes of stem cell research. If that is the case, there is no ethical dilemma.

On the other hand, if amniotic fluid was removed with only the intent of using it for research, I guess you have a point. I don't agree with you I think; if done properly, it sounds like a pretty low-risk procedure, but at least I can see where your arguments could come from.

However, since there is no evidence that this is the case, but you seem to assume it is, I wonder where your upset comes from IntheNet? Are you opposed to stem cell research of any kind? Do you think all stem cell research inherantly harms a fetus? Would you be ok with this research using amniotic fluid, if you knew it was only done using fluid that was already removed for other testing?
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
As I already posted, the article said the amniotic fluid was donated.
That means some uncaring soul jeopardized a fetus with some of its needed amniotic fluid without permission.

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On the other hand, if amniotic fluid was removed with only the intent of using it for research, I guess you have a point. I don't agree with you I think; if done properly, it sounds like a pretty low-risk procedure, but at least I can see where your arguments could come from.
Low risk in what way and to who? Let me give you another example (though the earlier one about air in tires is still appropriate)... let's take 40% of the oil from the hydraulics of a commerical air liner... concerned?

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However, since there is no evidence that this is the case, but you seem to assume it is, I wonder where your upset comes from IntheNet? Are you opposed to stem cell research of any kind? Do you think all stem cell research inherantly harms a fetus? Would you be ok with this research using amniotic fluid, if you knew it was only done using fluid that was already removed for other testing?
My "upset" arises from yet another medical process that puts the life of one above the live of another; a civil rights issue. Who can medically, ethically, or morally, make a case for saving one life with stem cells at the expense of another who is using said fluid for survival. The jury is still out on the medical risks herein; it is hardly risk free... I propose that you seek permission from the fetus using the amniotic fluid before stealing it; since you can't, doing so without permission is ethically unsound.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:28 PM   #18
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Why do conservatives only care about life before it's born? Once the baby is born they don't want it to have any access to welfare, the ability to gain a good education, and they will send you to war in an attempt to gain more pwer for the welathy and the corporate world. Inthenet will fight to the death to save that fetus, then fight to the death to deny that baby food stamps in order to be fed.

Real Jesus like...
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:42 PM   #19
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What republicans care about is money. If you look closely at the bits and pieces of the Christian agenda that gets actually supported with legislation instead of the tough talk during campaigns; you'll see that there's an ulterior motive every time. Stem cell research would cure diseases. That would be bad for pharmaceutical companies. You know what else would be bad for pharmaceutical companies? Banning abortion which is why they always talk tough on the campaign trail and forget it as soon as they're in office. Good thing they have us "damn liberals" to blame it on. We should seriously take a look at dropping our pro-choice stance. It would be hilarious to watch the synchronized back-peddling from republicans.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:47 PM   #20
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Well sometimes when folks say stuff like "what republicans care about is money" and conservatives not wanting good education for children...leads to people talking about the "damn liberals". I don't see the point of attacking with petty generalizations and then complaining about that coming as the response.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:54 PM   #21
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Hahahaha, poe.

That would be delicious. I would love to see it.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:58 PM   #22
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Well Doug,
When conservatives don't support any form of welfare, and don't support government funding of schools (in large amounts) it appears that way. you can't say you are for quality education when you don't support more funding. The US is one of the few industrialized nations in the world where people still have to pay for college, just like health care. If conservatives would give up on the "tax cuts" idea it would allow us to fund and support better policies that allow EVERYONE to go to college and allow EVERYONE to get proper health care.

But no, you would rather fight to save the fetus. Skrew the kid who is starving or can't get medical attention. Let's put the fetus on the dollar bill, any takers?
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Old 01-09-2007, 02:58 PM   #23
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Perhaps I should have said "abortion for convenience", as opposed to abortion on demand.
You have stated the case against late term or "partial birth" abortions well and for that I say thanks.

It isn't convenient... it is abortion... descriptors are subjective..

Yep, I have... viability... only late term abortion are needed in mothers endangerment...
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntheNet View Post
That means some uncaring soul jeopardized a fetus with some of its needed amniotic fluid without permission.



Low risk in what way and to who? Let me give you another example (though the earlier one about air in tires is still appropriate)... let's take 40% of the oil from the hydraulics of a commerical air liner... concerned?



My "upset" arises from yet another medical process that puts the life of one above the live of another; a civil rights issue. Who can medically, ethically, or morally, make a case for saving one life with stem cells at the expense of another who is using said fluid for survival. The jury is still out on the medical risks herein; it is hardly risk free... I propose that you seek permission from the fetus using the amniotic fluid before stealing it; since you can't, doing so without permission is ethically unsound.

IntheNet, I think you are missing my point. It is possible that the amniotic fluid used for stem cell testing has already been removed from pregnant women for other reasons, such as testing for birth defects. This use of amniotic fluid has been going on for some time. My question is, if this fluid has already been removed from the woman's body for other reasons, do you have any issue with then using it in stem cell research?

Again, I don't know if this is/can be done, it's purely a hypothetical question at this point. I'm just saying if they can do it using something that is likely to be thrown away/destroyed anyway, isn't that ok?

I continue to wonder where this 40% of yours comes from. It has no relation to the article involved in this discussion that I've seen, and continues to make your analogies poor. Let me counter by asking, if someone took 1% of the oil from the hydraulics of a commerical air liner, would you be concerned? If we are discussing the usual uses for amniotic fluid, you can add taking the 1% to test to make sure the hydraulics will function properly.

As to the low risk, the risk would be to the mother and the fetus. I will happily admit the risk is greater to the fetus, and that I can see why that could be a problem. From the little I've read, extracting amniotic fluid should involve an ultrasound being done while inserting the needle to be as certain as possible the fetus remains safe. And again, if you don't think that risk is worth it for stem cell research, fine. But if amniotic fluid is already being removed for other testing, which is not amazingly uncommon, there's no reason not to use that fluid for stem cell research as well if possible.

Finally, IntheNet, you imply both that massive amounts of amniotic fluid are removed and that said fluid is a finite resource which can not be replaced once taken. The normal process removes approximately an ounce of fluid, and it can be replaced naturally. Amniotic fluid is apparently made up largely of the urine of the developing baby.

I see that there are reasons to question using this method of stem cell research. I base this on the knowledge I've gained in a small amount of research rather than any argument you've made, IntheNet. If you used some facts and didn't sound quite so reactionary, your concerns would likely be more well received and thought about.
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
you can't say you are for quality education when you don't support more funding.
Uh, yeah, you can.

Quote:
When conservatives don't support any form of welfare
This doesn't make them bad people. This doesn't send up a red flag that says "they don't care about society".

I don't want to start making conservative arguments, I just really hate lines like the ones that you and RavenPoe tossed out there. Different beliefs on how to accomplish getting things done doesn't mean that one side cares and the other doesn't.
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:52 PM   #26
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So how do you feed the poor child who is starving? You rely on charity? That sure isn't working. If welfare is worthless, and you really sincerly want to help the poor, suggest something. Like I said, right now we have welfare (limited) and CHARITY. Relying on the rich to safe the poor is a flawed logic. The rich will exploit the poor more often than not. Sure there are some good-hearted rich people, but the majority don't do enought o help those in need. Hence, we have the largest gap between rich and poor NOW than we did in any point in our history.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:14 PM   #27
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I don't disagree with that, but just because you think their methods are flawed doesn't mean they don't care.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant;232498I
I think you are missing my point.
Montrovant... at no point in your reply did you once stop to consider likely and/or potential harm to fetus with your accolades of procedure...almost like you think the amniotic fluid is to be harvested without regard to what deletion of it (a portion thereof) may cause...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant;232498I
The normal process removes approximately an ounce of fluid, and it can be replaced naturally.... If you used some facts and didn't sound quite so reactionary, your concerns would likely be more well received and thought about.
What facts have you presented in support of reckless endangerment of fetus? Have you studied the deletion of amniotic fluid in all circumstances or are you jumping at the idea?

Let's test it... a few years may see progress...
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:18 PM   #29
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Banning abortion which is why they always talk tough on the campaign trail and forget it as soon as they're in office...
Lucky thing Raven you never look out your window!!!
  • Bush proposed and instituted a Late Term Abortion Ban. It is now law.
  • Bush also proposed and got appointed two solid anti-abortion Supreme Court Judges!

Forget it? It's on Bush's mind every day. Mine too...
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:26 PM   #30
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Partial birth abortion costs pharmaceutical companies money. The vast majority of these were done because of discovered complications like downs syndrome and the like. Fetuses that will grow into people that take drugs their entire life. You have all the necessary votes in the Supreme Court right now. Why then isn't a case coming to court that would overturn Roe Vs. Wade? That's a rhetorical question, I've already answered it in the last post.
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