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Old 08-07-2008, 06:53 PM   #1
philabramoff
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Default Okay...the case for capitalism

(Big sigh of disappointment...)

Thanks for wrecking my thread with that picture of the dog
pooping, Det. Wish you could come up with some better
contributions to our discussions than idiocy that makes us
moderate conservatives look bad...

That said, let me continue the discussion here, firstly by
prefacing that I'm not trying to beat a dead horse (as some
of CK's own sighs may have seemed to indicate), but rather
shift the discussion to the merits and drawbacks of capitalism.

On the idea of socialism...I firmly claim victory on that round
(not in the sense that I'm in it to get personal props for winning
some argument, forensically), in that, by CK's own admission,
there exists no such example of successful socialism in this
world on a national scale.

Now...to address the point, and to clarify, on the idea of the
"success" of capitalism. CK cites that entities like Wal-Mart
possess large sums of wealth in the face of tremendous poverty
elsewhere.

Okay...let me clarify some matters of perception here.
First of all, it seems that whenever some wealthy company is
cited, the assumption is somehow made that they must have
acquired their wealth by theft or some other immoral means.
Companies like Wal-Mart are wealthy because they have
provided a huge amount of valuable product that people want
and need. Furthermore, their products are purchased
voluntarily. Nobody puts a gun to your head and makes
you purchase any products from ANY company that produces
them. You CHOOSE to do so.

In that way, Wal-Mart is an example of the success of capitalism
in that their wealth is the evidence of how much wealth they have
created, for exchange, for others.

Compare that to the way the government gets their wealth,
which is essentially extortion. Yes, if you don't pay your taxes,
police officers, with guns, will come to your home, and arrest you.
Government does not produce and exchange...government only
takes, and then pays others to produce things, based on what
elected officials have decided people should have.

Talk about being "pro-choice". If one is really in favor of free choice,
one would be pro-capitalism.

Second issue, comparing the wealth of large companies to the huge
amount of poverty all around, I really need to ask, honestly, where
does the most, and worst poverty exist. Massive poverty, where
people are literally lying on the ground starving to death, exists in
non-capitalist nations, communist nations, third world basket cases.
This type of poverty is almost non-existent in the United States.
While we may define it as poverty (or being below the poverty
line, as it were), typical poverty in this country would consist of
living in a rent-control apartment, in likely a not-too-safe neighborhood,
using food stamps and SSI for health care, and having one's children
attending a crappy school district (as if 90% of school districts aren't
"crappy" to begin with). Hardly downtown Calcutta.

Hopefully, point made.

Before you call me callous and unfeeling, like most conservatives are
unfairly characterized, let me say that I do believe in taxation for
a moderate amount of common sense social programs, and a
"well regulated" capitalism that does protect the rights of workers,
their safety, and provides measures such as minimum wage.

I'm against having the economy run by, and micromanaged by the
government. This produces an unmotivated, unproductive, and
poverty inducing national economy.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:51 AM   #2
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Quote:
Companies like Wal-Mart are wealthy because they have
provided a huge amount of valuable product that people want
and need.
:lol:

"Valuable?" Have you ever been to a Walmart?

:lol:

Walmart has become successful by forcing small businesses out out business and providing cheap, foreign products.

Walmart drives down the wages of American workers, forces lesser products on consumers, and destroy communities by homogenizing every town to look the same.

As George Carlin said, "Have you seen America lately? It's a ****ing strip-mall."

Sorry, I prefer American towns to have some character. As it is now, each town is the same, with a Walmart, McDonalds and BP on every corner in every town...

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Old 08-08-2008, 12:55 PM   #3
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Fresh, who brings the new products to market? When businesses perceive a need for new products, they develop them. I just saw a hydrogen-cell car at the state fair yesterday. Unfortunately, there are no places around my area to re-fuel it, so there is not a market for such a vehicle. When the demand is great enough, the supply will be there.
As to Walmart, McDonalds and BP if you don't approve of their practices, don't shop there.
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
Fresh, who brings the new products to market?
As to Walmart, McDonalds and BP if you don't approve of their practices, don't shop there.
I don't. Unfortunately, there are many poor Americans who don't have much choice.

Buy the cheap **** from Walmart or go broke.

Walmart kills competition, not a good thing.

The high cost of low price
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:28 PM   #5
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Firstly, CK, I've always appreciated your passion, but you don't
need the four-letter symphony to make your points, here.

Anyhow, as far as people criticizing places like Wal-Mart...

Where is the world are low-income people exactly supposed to
shop?

I just got 3 pretty solid bookcases for 27 bucks each at Wal-Mart.
The place is a haven for the low income among us, who can get,
actually, pretty good stuff at prices they can afford. Not everyone
can shop at Macy's.

That's why the store is so dang successful. They provide a LOT of
stuff that a LOT of people want to buy. It works. It's called
capitalism.

A lot better than having the government decide what people are
going to receive, and what's going to happen with their money,
that, after all, they earned.

Man, CK...Cat and I have been pummelling you big time over the past
several weeks on this issue. Want to concede, now, or wait ten
years from now when the natural course of life will place you fully
in agreement with us anyway?
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:32 PM   #6
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Oh, by the way, CK, what's your definition of "valuable"?

Diamond rings? Cadillacs? No, Wal-Mart doesn't sell those.

Maybe, something valuable is a cartful of decent clothes that
a single mother can buy for her four children without completely
busting her paycheck for the week.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
Maybe, something valuable is a cartful of decent clothes that
a single mother can buy for her four children without completely
busting her paycheck for the week.
The irony of this is that the mom gets payed **** because the corporation she works for pays her nothing-- or the mom and pop's store that she works for can't pay her much because they have to try and stay competitive with the Walmart that just moved in.

But I'll digress: there's no avoiding fate; if causality calls for Walmart, Walmart it is.

The case against Capitalism is that it embraces the Will, and as we all know, the only route to salvation is to deny the Will.

Last edited by Ellis; 08-09-2008 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 08-09-2008, 01:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis View Post

The case against Capitalism is that embraces the Will, and as we all know, the only route to salvation is to deny the Will.
Not exactly a big Nietzsche fan are you, Ellis?
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Old 08-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #9
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Not exactly a big Nietzsche fan are you, Ellis?
Can't stand Nietzsche; Schopenhauer deserves all of the acclaim that Nietzsche gets.
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:54 PM   #10
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I thought as much. Nietzsche didn't have very many kind words to say about Schopenhauer either.
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Old 08-22-2008, 12:19 PM   #11
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I guess what you against Walmart are saying is that once a company starts doing well, they then become bad? Walmart started from the bottom,..don't hate success. Just get some.
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:10 PM   #12
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I guess what you against Walmart are saying is that once a company starts doing well, they then become bad? Walmart started from the bottom,..don't hate success. Just get some.
No, my problem with Walmart is as follows:

1) They destroy communities.
2) The destroy small business.
3) The import all of their products from China, putting Americans out of work.
4) The drive down wages.
5) They are un-American.
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
No, my problem with Walmart is as follows:

1) They destroy communities.
2) The destroy small business.
3) The import all of their products from China, putting Americans out of work.
4) The drive down wages.
5) They are un-American.
Let me know what community Walmart has destroyed?

Small business is small because,..they can't get big! Maybe there is a reason? Walmart was once a small business.

Don't blame Walmart for the Dem-like Big Government ways of exporting American jobs, and importing foreign goods into the USA. As Obama says,...he wants to be the leader of the world! Walmart has simply used what they were given by big government.

Drives down wages? Who's? Every Walmart I have seen has at least two banks, a Subway, McDonald's, 3 gas stations, Domino's pizza near it,..if you ask me, it creates jobs. Keep in mind, most people get pay raises, not pay deductions so your claim here is false as well.

It is an American Company,...how could that not be American. I bet you own a Japanese car too!
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DETMURDS View Post
Let me know what community Walmart has destroyed?
Athens Ohio - where I went to college.

Quote:
Small business is small because,..they can't get big! Maybe there is a reason? Walmart was once a small business.
In your world, the only choices are Walmart, McDonalds and BP for gas. Sounds terrific

Quote:
It is an American Company,...how could that not be American. I bet you own a Japanese car too!
Just not American Anymore

Yep, I drive a Honda - it was made in America, by Americans.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:06 PM   #15
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Buying a Honda is buying American more than buying a GM car.
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