Go Back   Sports Central Message Boards > Professional Sports Discussion > National Basketball Association

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2005, 11:38 PM   #31
Clipps
The Clipper Fan
 
Clipps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 831
Clipps is on a distinguished road
Default

With some of the logic I'm reading, then Red was an average coach at best because he was coaching a very talented Celtics team 9 rings. Pat Riley is an average coach because he had the oppurtunity to coach Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, McAdoo, etc. over the years. But he didn't win jack after leaving the Showtime Lakers. The same should be said about Greg Popovich. I mean he had 0 championships before Duncan existed in the NBA. And not to mention the reason why they got Duncan because with Robinson's injury, Popovich did a fabulous job coaching the Spurs to a p!ss a$$ season. I guess every coach with at least one ring is an average coach at best because of the talent they had.

Phil had Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Grant, Kerr/Paxon, etc.

Riley had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, McAdoo, etc. IMO, the Showtime Lakers were more talented than the 90's Bulls

I'm honestly sick and tired of people taking shots at Phil Jackson because of the talent he had over the years. I mean look at both the Bulls teams and Laker teams before Phil coached them. Sure, they played great in the regular season, The Lakers had a 60 win season before Phil arived. but both teams were ooglay in the playoffs. Too much inconsistancy, you have Coach Del Harris allowing an 18 year old rookie launch 3 airballs in a row. And when Phil arived to the Bulls, he taught Michael Jordon how to be a leader and the Championship Bulls teams were always consistant, they were together, they would go balls to the wall to win a playoff game Phil Jackson helped the Bulls build the mental edge to finally beat their nemesises in the Knicks and Pistons. the Lakers, the team that was probably the most inconsistant team in the playoffs in the late 90s. They would have 60+ win seasons and get swept in the second round when it should have been them doing the sweeping, and Phil got Kobe and Shaq to just get over what they thought about eachother and steamrolled through 3 streight seasons, until they finally got beat in 2003 and then bunch of issues began like a rebirth of the Kobe/Shaq feud that no coach was able to control and also Kobe's rape case, and if the Lakers didn't have Karl Malone and Gary Payton, I don't think the Lakers would have enough heart to make the playoffs, yet alone win 50 games.

So like I said, all this negative logic about Phil Jackson, "Phil Jackson shouldn't be called a great coach because he had MJ, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq over the years." It gets annoying after a while.
__________________
Get your walk on, Get your head tight
I know your feelin' this ****, Thie **** is damn right
Get your bounce on, Back that ass up.
*****pass me the bottle and fill the glass up
Clipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 08:13 AM   #32
blackdogsong
Hall of Famer
 
blackdogsong's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northampton, pa
Posts: 1,184
blackdogsong is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Jackson had nothing to do with MJ getting to the next level, in my mind. He was going to be there no matter what.
it's not as if Jordan was calling his own plays and doing whatever he wanted while playing- he was playing within Phil Jackson's system and following what he said. it was not until MJ started to buy into Phil's system did the Bulls become a great team. without Jackson's guidence Jordan would have grown into such a great all-round player. MJ was gifted w/ a great coach just as much as he was gifted w/ his natural ability.
blackdogsong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 04:03 PM   #33
HibachiDG
Sports Virtuoso
 
HibachiDG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,258
HibachiDG is on a distinguished road
Default

They were a team that pre-Jackson was a Finals team that everyone knew was destined for great things because of how special of a player Jordan was. It didn't have to do with Jackson's guidance. If it did, then explain to me how. At least do that. Just because Jackson was there doesn't mean he MADE IT HAPPEN.
HibachiDG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 04:26 PM   #34
#99
Hall of Famer
 
#99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,062
#99 is on a distinguished road
Default

But they weren't a Finals team. That's what everyone is telling you! Just because you're expected to reach expectations, doesn't mean you ever do. Jackson put the system in place to (allow me to piggy back on your affection for CAPS) MAKE IT HAPPEN. It was never a team before Jackson got there. It was just Michael. If Doug Collins or someone like him stayed on, we'd have a different Bulls team.
__________________
It tastes like... burning.
Teams: LA Kings, Raiders, Lakers, A's, Arizona Wildcats, Liverpool FC, South Africa Springbok Rugby
2005 College Football Pick 'em Champ
Sports Again?!
#99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 04:37 PM   #35
Shawndo
Sports Virtuoso
 
Shawndo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,947
Shawndo is on a distinguished road
Default

Doug, if Jackson brings the Lakers to round 2 next season, would that prove it for you?
Shawndo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 06:56 PM   #36
Tarkus
The Thread Stalker
 
Tarkus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In The Wind...
Posts: 11,856
Tarkus has a spectacular aura aboutTarkus has a spectacular aura aboutTarkus has a spectacular aura about
Default

Wow, Doug, stirred up a hornets nest, dincha??

I'm sure we've covered this in a thread somewhere, sometime, but this subject of great is only defined by some when it comes to Titles & to others when it comes to the type of coaching involved.

I'va always viewed PJ as an excellent coach/manager of players personalities as opposed to a coach/developer of players. First off, Jackson excels in putting players into a system which points the team in one direction i.e. the triangle offense. That's completely different to me than a Red Auerbach who melded talent & developed talent. An example today would be a Larry Brown type who lives Xs & Os to combat an opponent while PJs approach with the triangle is more structured & consistent no matter who's the opponent.

It's a matter of the triangle's placement of the players & the subsequent spacing that evens the talent on the floor. That's why the Bulls were able to find players that most teams didn't want & plug them into the triangle & still be successful.

A good case in point is Brown's game plan in the last game. His adjustments completely knocked Duncan & the Spurs out of their rythm offensively & defensively. Jackson usually tinkers with the triangle & doesn't make major adjustments as a rule. If there are adjustments, it's usually to point out spacing problems, ball movement, moving without the ball type problems, not a different game plan.

Does that make an excellent coach? Yes. PJ's is still addressing the areas that need improvement but more as a manager than an Xs & Os type. Of course there's an amount of Xs & Os in PJ's coaching but not to the extent of an Auerbach or a Brown.

Plus, you normally only hear of PJ's triangle when it's a Tex Winter triangle. Give credit to PJ buying into the scheme but let's not forget he didn't dream it up but implements it. To me, there is a difference between how Auerbach & PJ got their rings but not to the point that I'd diminish PJ's worth, just that I think he still has a lot to learn before I'd put him up with Auerbach.

The Bulls were not going any higher with Collins since they had just about completely tuned him out due to his high strung coaching style. Jackson's promotion & his laid back approach & stubborn push to utilize the triangle was instrumental IMO in getting the Bulls over the hump. That & the fact the even MJ could finally see that his 1 man show wasn't enough when the playoffs hit gave PJ a perfect time & a perfect place to institute the change.

That same spacing & ball movement the triangle brought made MJ even more dangerous & allowed others who had some talent, Paxson, Kerr, Hodges, Livingston, Williams, Perdue, etc. , etc. , to get the ball in an advantageous position without having to rely on being more talented than the man guarding them. If that didn't work at times, MJ took over.

When it came to the Lakers, PJ saw a team of great to good talent & saw how the triangle would benefit a team that was underacheiving when it came to crunch time. Some call him an opportunist to grab a team on the cusp, so to speak, but it still took him & his staff to bring it all together.

So in 1 respect, PJ's benefiting from what I consider the most effective type NBA offense, which can be tailored to the type of players on the roster, while in another respect, PJ's been wise enough to know what's working & sticking to it. So he's somewhat unique in that he's not your routine type coach, looking for offensive sets & defensive schemes to beat an opponent but relies instead on a system which, as it plays out on each posession, has the play unfold in response to how the defense reacts.

So the real question is personally, what type of coach do you like?? I guess it's just to pick your poison. My choice would be PJ tho him going back to the Lakers has me scratchin' my head. I'm sure there's going to be some major changes already in place about to happen in the next few months otherwise I don't think he'd have come back. If somehow Bryant will allow PJ to be the coach, game in & game out, they'll start heading in the right direction next year, playoffs & in the second round with some roster moves...& of course the triangle back...

For any not familiar with the triangle, here's a link. It's really quite an amazing offense if played right...

http://www.bbhighway.com/Talk/Coachi...ngle_intro.asp
__________________
Tarkus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 07:52 PM   #37
HibachiDG
Sports Virtuoso
 
HibachiDG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,258
HibachiDG is on a distinguished road
Default

Just to address the Pat Riley thing that was thrown out there earlier and I didn't mention it...if I had to pick one person to give the credit to for the Lakers teams that Riley coached...one and ONLY one, and one that is not a player, I'd give it to Jerry West.

That said...

Pat Riley never backed down from a challenge. Phil did, twice.

Riley went to a Knicks team that finished what the year before he got there? Below .500. When he went to the Heat, they were below .500 and he turned them into an OK team the next season, but a team that then got to the East Finals. Finished first in the Atlantic for a couple seasons.

Riley wasn't handed the keys to that Heat team. There's some very solid evidence out there that Riley was never JUST a product of the players around.

With Jackson, he won his Titles with Jordan and then with Shaq/Kobe and there isn't much basis of comparisons. The only comparison you have is that he coached a Bulls team without Jordan for two seasons. The first, they were amped up to prove they weren't a one man team. They won 50+ games, but were nothing in the Playoffs. The next season they dropped some games and had the same lackluster playoff showing. Not exactly an impressive coaching performance by Jackson in either season.

Great coaches would have saw how that team finished the first season without Jordan and done better going into the second season. Jackson didn't do a whole lot, certainly didn't improve them.

On the Collins thing, it's not as if the Jackson coaching ascension was the only thing that pushed them over the top. They did finish with the same playoff result in Jackson's first season, afterall.

Quote:
Doug, if Jackson brings the Lakers to round 2 next season, would that prove it for you?
Eh, I think they could get to the second round with whoever they signed. Every team that makes massive changes has a period of adjustment.

Look at the Lakers when they got Shaq and Kobe, they didn't win Titles right away. It takes time to get talent on the same page.

I think the Lakers have enough to get to the Playoffs and win a round with what they have...especially in the West.

Still, any playoff appearance with this group of Lakers will definitely vault Jackson up in my book.

Quote:
But they weren't a Finals team. That's what everyone is telling you! Just because you're expected to reach expectations, doesn't mean you ever do.
Yeah...god forbid a team get over that hump when their two best players, reached their prime. The last two years for Collins also happened to be Scottie Pippen's first two seasons. But, that probably had nothing to do with it, right? Where's the eye rolling smiley at?
HibachiDG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2005, 08:39 PM   #38
doublee
Sports Virtuoso
 
doublee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 11,138
doublee will become famous soon enoughdoublee will become famous soon enough
Default

The Bulls were not a Finals team when Phil took over, but they were a Finals caliber team. They did make the Conference Finals in Collins' last season. That season also marked the first season that Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen joined MJ in the starting lineup. That team started the season 13-12 and then finished strong to make a playoff push. There was no reason to believe that with some minor roster tweaks that the Bulls could have been a contender for the Eastern Conference crown with or without Phil Jackson. If I am not mistaken Collins was the coach when Jordan hit 'The Shot' that finally got the Bulls past the Cavs in the post season. That series is what triggered Jordan's and the Bulls ascent to the upper echelon of the league. The following season the Bulls had the same starting five so it stands to reason that they would improve with Grant and Pippen coming into their own at the NBA level and with Jordan becoming more comfortable playing with the two younger guys. Ultimately we will never know if Collins could have gotten the Bulls to the promised land as he never had the opportunity to see it all the way through. Would they have won six titles with Collins as opposed to Jackson? Maybe not, but I think it is reasonable to think they would have won multiple titles with Collins as Jordan/Pippen/Grant and/or Rodman were just too powerful a combination not to win championships.

Personally, I can not sit here and say I'd be convinced that Jackson is a great coach if he gets the Lakers to the second round next year as it remains to be seen what the Lakers do personnel-wise this summer. Maybe the Lakers pull off a trade to help them out or steal someone in the draft who turns out to be a stud. They obviously have to do something this Summer as they just don't have the overall talent to be serious contenders.

The thing with Jackson is that it is awfully tough to ignore the fact that both times Jackson previously took the reigns of a team they were teams on the rise as opposed to teams that were in descension or beginning a rebuilding phase. This time around will be Jackson's first, and likely only, time to prove that he can take a middling team and raise it to the next level over the course of the next few seasons. The only question is will he pull a Parcells and jump ship if it doesn't look like he is going to get the Lakers back to the top in the next two or three seasons?
__________________
Can I get an Amen from the bobbleheads?
Hey I said pass the ketchup! I'm eatin' salad here!
Oooh, there is so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.
You SU-DIDDILY-UCK Flanders!!
doublee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 12:08 AM   #39
Shawndo
Sports Virtuoso
 
Shawndo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,947
Shawndo is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by doublee

Personally, I can not sit here and say I'd be convinced that Jackson is a great coach if he gets the Lakers to the second round next year as it remains to be seen what the Lakers do personnel-wise this summer. Maybe the Lakers pull off a trade to help them out or steal someone in the draft who turns out to be a stud. They obviously have to do something this Summer as they just don't have the overall talent to be serious contenders.
OK, fair enough... I will repost this question after any off-season trades are complete. We will get it on record for doublee and doug graham for Phil Jackson.
Shawndo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 08:13 AM   #40
blackdogsong
Hall of Famer
 
blackdogsong's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northampton, pa
Posts: 1,184
blackdogsong is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Great coaches would have saw how that team finished the first season without Jordan and done better going into the second season. Jackson didn't do a whole lot, certainly didn't improve them.
they got to the Conference Semifinals both times! how is that not impressive without Jordan? Jackson had just as much to do w/ Jordan's success as Jordan's own talent did.
blackdogsong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 06:32 PM   #41
doublee
Sports Virtuoso
 
doublee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 11,138
doublee will become famous soon enoughdoublee will become famous soon enough
Default

You do realize that Conference Semis just means they got past the first round of the playoffs don't you? Nothing special really considering they had Pippen/Grant/Kukoc in '94 and Pippen/Jordan/Kukoc for the '95 playoffs.

One thing to note about the second year without Jordan they were without Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman and that was alos the year Jordan came back at the end of the season just in time for the playoffs, but seeing as Will Perdue and Luc Longley were the primary low post presences on that squad it was destined to flame out early in the playoffs. Then in '95-'96 they get Rodman and win 70 games.
__________________
Can I get an Amen from the bobbleheads?
Hey I said pass the ketchup! I'm eatin' salad here!
Oooh, there is so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.
You SU-DIDDILY-UCK Flanders!!
doublee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 07:46 PM   #42
Shawndo
Sports Virtuoso
 
Shawndo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,947
Shawndo is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally posted in Steve Kerr's "mailbag"
Steve, a little biased on the Jackson commentary maybe? A parrot could have coached Jackson's teams and won nine rings. Let's see what he does with a less than stellar team.

Jim
Milwaukee, Wis.

Jim, why wouldn't I be biased when it comes to Phil Jackson? I was with him for five years as he coached the Chicago Bulls to three titles. You and all the Jackson-haters all bring the same argument that anyone could have coached his teams to championships. But those of us who played for him know what an amazing coach he is and how he has an uncanny knack of getting the most out of his players. He won nine titles! Give him his due. As for his return? He's not going to win a championship, but he'll lead the Lakers back to the playoffs I guarantee it.
Shawndo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 09:45 PM   #43
HibachiDG
Sports Virtuoso
 
HibachiDG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,258
HibachiDG is on a distinguished road
Default

Players have called Johnny Davis a great coach. The point? No player can speak with any credibility on someone that has coached them. Obviously Kerr's job requires him to at some point, but there is obviously going to be a personal connection between player and coach. Good or bad. I mean, just look at that reaction...Kerr said "he won nine titles!"

Oh wow, Kerr guaranteed a team with Kobe ****ing Bryant to go to the playoffs.

Can't he go shoot a jumpshot for some team in Italy?

First thing he does wrong is call people "Jackson-haters" just because they don't think Jackson is an amazing coach. Silly.

Second, the saying "give him his due"...ummm...we are, it's just that I think his due is completely different than Kerr's.

Third, if Jackson has this "uncanny knack" for getting the most out of his players...why does Kerr put no faith in Jackson's return to the Lakers? They'll make the Playoffs! Thanks Steve! Jackson will make them play exactly to their abilities according to you! If he were such an "amazing coach", at least predict him to WIN a round. Hell, I'm predicting he should win a round.
HibachiDG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 10:54 PM   #44
Tarkus
The Thread Stalker
 
Tarkus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In The Wind...
Posts: 11,856
Tarkus has a spectacular aura aboutTarkus has a spectacular aura aboutTarkus has a spectacular aura about
Default

& now for Red Auerbach's take on PJ....& he aughta know somethin' about it...

Excerpt:

Auerbach: Jackson is 'a great coach'

Red Auerbach was a brash 29-year-old fresh out of the Navy. Without a cigar, he walked into the office of Mike Uline to tell him he was the man to coach his new Washington Capitols in the Basketball Association of America for the 1946-47 season.

"I don't know why, but Mike bought my brag," Red recalls.

Uline chose a coach who turned into a legend. In 20 years as a coach with Washington, Tri-Cities and then Boston, Red made the playoffs every year, suffering just one losing season. With the Boston Celtics, he won eight championships in a row from 1959 to 1966.

Auerbach retired with nine titles, a record tied by Phil Jackson in 2002, which puts these two coaches at the forefront of any debate about the NBA's greatest all-time coach.

After the Lakers rehired Phil Jackson this week, ESPN.com spoke to Auerbach for his reaction.

ESPN.com: Why do you think Phil Jackson would take the Lakers' job after the team won 34 and lost 48 last year?

Auerbach: As far as why he would take it, you have to ask him. But it's very obvious; he did it because of the money. I don't blame him for taking the job.

ESPN.com: Do you think part of the motivation was to surpass your record of nine championships?

Auerbach: No, I think that's an incidental factor. Take away the money and he wouldn't be coaching.

ESPN.com: Is a definition of a good coach someone who can win even when his team didn't have the best regular-season record or is not expected to win? For instance, you won the title in 1966 (Auerbach's last year coaching Boston) even though Philadelphia owned the better regular-season record. And Jackson did not win a title without Jordan, but came close, winning 55 games with Chicago in 1994.

Auerbach: Remember Doug Collins had that team and he won with it.

ESPN.com: He didn't win a championship with it.

Auerbach: No, but he was a winning coach and it was just a matter of time.

ESPN.com: What are the similarities and differences between you and Jackson as coaches?

Auerbach: We both had the respect of the players. And that's the key thing. In other words, you say something and they listen. If somebody else does it, they don't listen.

ESPN.com: Besides the ability to communicate, is there anything else that makes him a great coach?

Auerbach: There's no question in my mind that he is a great coach. Because I've seen guys who get great teams on paper and they butcher it up, you see?

If you have some great potential players, there are two things: One, you help make them great. Two, you devise a method of play that is suitable to their talent. He did that.

For example, suppose I had a center like Bill Russell and a point guard like Bob Cousy and I played a half-court game. You know, like Philadelphia did. Chamberlain would get the rebound, make a lot of motions, and they'd wait for him to get upcourt. Now suppose I played that kind of slow-down game with Russell and Cousy. I don't think we would have won.

Phil Jackson has that knowledge of what is best for his players and has the ability to communicate. He's in control. That's the whole thing. He's in control, they listen to him and that's more than half the battle right there. You see a lot of ballplayers � you watch during timeout in college and the pro � the coach is talking, talking, talking and their minds are way the hell someplace else.

Continued...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/s...=2088260&num=2
__________________
Tarkus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2005, 11:04 PM   #45
doublee
Sports Virtuoso
 
doublee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 11,138
doublee will become famous soon enoughdoublee will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Tarkus
Phil Jackson has that knowledge of what is best for his players and has the ability to communicate. He's in control. That's the whole thing. He's in control, they listen to him and that's more than half the battle right there. You see a lot of ballplayers � you watch during timeout in college and the pro � the coach is talking, talking, talking and their minds are way the hell someplace else.

Hmm, interesting. Apparently he has no recollection of last year's finals when Kobe, Payton, and Shaq all seemed to be doing there own thing and Phil seemed to have little to no control over the Kobe circus. Actually, Kobe seemed to do whatever he felt like last season and seemed to pay little to no attention to what Jackson wanted him to do. I guess we could say he holds everyone's attention and respect except for Kobe's who seems to know better than everyone else how to win games.
__________________
Can I get an Amen from the bobbleheads?
Hey I said pass the ketchup! I'm eatin' salad here!
Oooh, there is so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.
You SU-DIDDILY-UCK Flanders!!
doublee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:41 PM.