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Old 12-28-2005, 12:02 AM   #1
yonglo32
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Default future hall of famers

which of these current day stars or recently retired vets is a hall of famer

derek jeter
a-rod
gary sheffield
ichiro
manny ramirez
david ortiz
albert pujols
bernie williams
sammy sosa
raffy palmeiro
mark maguire
mariano rivera
barry bonds
derrek lee
ken griffey jr.
jeff bagwell
craig biggio
miguel cabrera
carlos delgado
pedro martinez
carlos beltran
todd helton
chipper jones
jim thome
alfonso soriano
eric gagne
adrian beltre
frank thomas
randy johnson
roger clemens
greg maddux
kevin brown
mike mussina
javier vasquez
barry zito
jim edmonds

pick 3-5 who are definately in the hall, and 3-5 who arent
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:38 AM   #2
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Definite:
Alex Rodriguez
Mariano Rivera
Barry Bonds
Albert Pujols
Pedro Martinez

Won't Get In:
Derrek Lee
Javier Vazquez
Adrian Beltre
Eric Gagne
Barry Zito

Why is Javy Vazquez on this list? If Bert Blyleven has this much trouble getting into Cooperstown, there's no way in hell Vazquez ever will.
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:58 AM   #3
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I think Jeter has a chance to make it in.
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Old 12-28-2005, 01:03 AM   #4
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Definitely Hall of Famers
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Bonds
Ken Griffey Jr.
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens


Definitely not Hall of Famers
Rafael Palmeiro
Kevin Brown
Javier Vasquez
Jim Edmonds
Jim Thome
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Old 12-28-2005, 03:08 AM   #5
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I'm not ready to put Barry Bonds into the Hall of Fame. His stats would get him there, but the steroid questions make it not so clear.
Pedro isn't there, just yet either. He needs to finish out this contract and pitch a couple more years after that. He needs to win at least 275 to be a "sure-fire" Hall of Famer.
Jeter and ARod are locks if they continue to play at this level for another 5 seasons.
Biggio, Clemens and Maddux should get in as well.
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Old 12-28-2005, 06:03 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman
I'm not ready to put Barry Bonds into the Hall of Fame. His stats would get him there, but the steroid questions make it not so clear.
Pedro isn't there, just yet either. He needs to finish out this contract and pitch a couple more years after that. He needs to win at least 275 to be a "sure-fire" Hall of Famer.
Jeter and ARod are locks if they continue to play at this level for another 5 seasons.
Biggio, Clemens and Maddux should get in as well.
The steroids things makes it iffy, but as things currently stand I don't think the voters will or should penalize him based solely on suspicion (unlike Palmeiro).

Catman, you have the highest standards for the HOF I've ever seen. Clemens, Biggio and Maddux should be automatic first-ballot. In fact, Clemens should be the first ever to get 100% of the vote. But of course, a few knuckleheads will leave him off, like when Nolan Ryan had 98.79% of the vote.

A-Rod's a lock right now. Two MVPs (should be three, but the idiot voters gave one to Juan Gonzalez in 1996), two Gold Gloves, and stats galore. The only knock on him so far is that he hasn't won a championship, but winning doesn't seem to bother the voters that much. Statistical achievements take precedent. For his career Alex has averaged .307, 44, and 125 per 162 games. That's enough quality and quantity. Maybe not a first-ballot (the voters seem to be awfully stingy handing out those), but a HOF lock right now.

Jeter is the one that's pretty iffy for the HOF. His defense has been brilliant, but that alone doesn't get someone in the Hall (i.e. Omar Vizquel). His offense is adequate at best, considering he's played with some of the best hitting teams ever. He has a career OPS under .850 and less than 175 career home runs. His chances would be dicey if he retired today, but he might get in due to his uncanny clutchness and championships.

Like A-Rod, Pedro is a lock right now. Three Cy Youngs, two top-five finishes in MVP voting (one he should have won, but once again, the voters were idiots and gave it to Ivan Rodriguez), 6 ERA titles, 3 strikeout titles, and the list goes on. He's the all-time leader in adjusted ERA and third is winning percentage. He's won a championship and threw a perfect game. He also had that godly performance against the Indians in the playoffs as well as the All-Star game where he struck out five out of six batters. The only knack on him is that he doesn't have enough wins and didn't throw enough innings (shutouts, complete games). But those are small blemishes on an amazing resume. Per 162 games over 14 seasons: 17-7, 2.72 ERA, 221 IP and 252 Ks.
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:38 AM   #7
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Jeter has a great chance to make it in, as do some other players on that list.

Pedro Martinez has been on of, if not the most dominating pitcher in baseball since 1997. If he can put up two more solid seasons, he should definitely be in.

Bonds will get in eventually unless it's revealed that he was juicing all along. You can't keep a guy with over 700 HR out of the HOF because of speculation. I'm an ardent Bonds hater but even I will admit he deserves to be in under those conditions.
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
Definitely Hall of Famers
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Bonds
Ken Griffey Jr.
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens


Definitely not Hall of Famers
Rafael Palmeiro
Kevin Brown
Javier Vasquez
Jim Edmonds
Jim Thome
LOL Kevin Brown, wow...
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Old 12-28-2005, 12:56 PM   #9
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Ken, my point is that guys like Bert Blyleven, Tommy John and Jim Kaat have 280+ wins (Blyleven has more K's than Pedro ever will -- 3701) and they aren't in. Sure they pitched in a different era, where pitchers went every 4th day, rather than every 5th, but they all pitched for over 20 seasons. Pedro won't pitch anywhere near 20 years. Jim Kaat won 16 Gold Gloves and won 25 games once. Tommy John has a surgery named after him -- one that has resurrected many careers. Any of these guys would be able to pitch today. Would Pedro have been able to handle pitching in their era?
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Old 12-28-2005, 02:38 PM   #10
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I think Pedro is in. Cy Young in both league's is an exclusive club... Jeter will be in too. If writers don't take into consideration Bonds steriod abuse then they are just dumb. I know this country is "innocent until proven guilty", but there are different circumstances. Although he has never been caught, is there anyone out there (speak up on this thread please) that thinks he never touched the Bean?
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Old 12-28-2005, 04:57 PM   #11
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How are they different circumstances? There's no prove that he's done illegal steroids, so he's innocent. His physicality and numbers say otherwise, but unless there's proof the voters shouldn't judge based on circumstance.
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Old 12-28-2005, 05:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
How are they different circumstances? There's no prove that he's done illegal steroids, so he's innocent. His physicality and numbers say otherwise, but unless there's proof the voters shouldn't judge based on circumstance.
Yeah there's no proof... but we are not idiots. Anyone who's ever been around the stuff knows different "trust me " Do you think he took them?
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Old 12-28-2005, 06:31 PM   #13
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Of course, and I think Barry took steroids knowingly. But just because I THINK he did something doesn't mean I should hold it against him without proof.
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Old 12-28-2005, 07:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da12ken
Of course, and I think Barry took steroids knowingly. But just because I THINK he did something doesn't mean I should hold it against him without proof.
I would say you are correct if you were sitting on a jury... but since this is not a court of law and it is the MLB, then I have to disagree. People take advantage of our "innocent until proven guilty" system. If I were a writer and I had a vote I think it would be my duty to "hold" this against him. Everything that has come out (BALCO, his trainer, etc... we all know the stories) is enough to influence my vote.
And not just Bonds... the other guys too (we know how they are).
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Old 12-28-2005, 07:22 PM   #15
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derek jeter - He's a lock the media loves him and he is a Yankee.
a-rod - Should get in on numbers alone.
gary sheffield - Borderline pick and has gotten caught up in the 'roids scandal a bit. Plus the media really does not like him very much.
ichiro - If they take his Japanese career into consideration he should get in.
manny ramirez - A lock to get in.
david ortiz - Doubtful
albert pujols - Too early to tell but should be a lock in another five years or so.
bernie williams - Not a chance.
sammy sosa - Depends on the steroids fallout
raffy palmeiro - Depends on steroids fallout
mark maguire - Depends on steroids fallout
mariano rivera - He's a lock.
barry bonds - Depends on steroids fallout but his career numbers speak for themselves.
derrek lee - No.
ken griffey jr. - On the fence but leaning towards yes. I don't know if he is first ballot but he gets in eventually.
jeff bagwell - Borderline.
craig biggio - Borderline, but if he puts up a couple more productive seasons he could get in.
miguel cabrera - Too early to tell.
carlos delgado - Doubtful
pedro martinez - Likely gets in.
carlos beltran - Too early to tell but at this point of his career I would lean towards no.
todd helton - Depends on if the writers 'punish' him for playing Coors. Also tends to toil in obscurity in Denver.
chipper jones - Career seems to have peaked already. He needs to rebound and put up four or five years like he did between '98 and 2002.
jim thome - Needs to get to 600 homers to even be considered.
alfonso soriano - Too early to tell check back in five years.
eric gagne - No.
adrian beltre - No, but he is only 26 so he has plenty of time to put up 10 stud seasons and gain consideration.
frank thomas - Borderline. He really needs to bounce back and have some productive seasons to ensure his induction.
randy johnson - Lock.
roger clemens - Lock.
greg maddux - Lock.
kevin brown - Why is he on the list?
mike mussina - Ditto
javier vasquez - Ditto
barry zito - Too early to tell.
jim edmonds - No. Great player but not an elite HOF caliber player. Though his defense could carry some weight for consideration.

Do we really need to rehash the did he or did he not argument with Barry Bonds?
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