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Old 03-10-2009, 05:15 PM   #16
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We own the airwaves so what is on should be our choice. Then again, we our the government (allegeldy) so there goes that theory.

Bottom line is that, for kids, parents should regulate. Not only for TV in fact, but for everything.

I see what Ricky is saying that TV is garbage...because it is...but the fact that kids watch it or play video games comes down to parenting. If you don't want your kids exposed to that stuff...ban it.

Once upon a time this was an adult world where children did as they were told. I understand that concept is foreign to most young people...even those who agree with me on parenting...but that's the way it should be.
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:18 PM   #17
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Once upon a time this was an adult world where children did as they were told. I understand that concept is foreign to most young people...even those who agree with me on parenting...but that's the way it should be.


Parenting? Have you seen the parents in America?

33-50% are divorced, 99% want to climb the social ladder, and 85% are complete morons.

If kids took less example from their parents, America would be a much better place.

Parents should have a libertarian rule over their kid: keep them out of danger, make sure they have food, clothes, etc. Parents shouldn't force moral guidance on their kids. It makes me mad when I see a parent taking their kid to church. It's brainwashing. And the grammar... God is always the theme, never the rheme; Kids sing songs about god before they can make their own decisions about things like that-- it's a joke. But more to the point: parents in today's society (for the most part) are a joke. The last thing we need are these parents influencing their kids.

Granted, 90% of kids are an absolute joke to begin with.
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:54 PM   #18
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I agree with your general point here, but I still see a huge problem with your argument.

I know this may be the exception, but what if a kid reads 2 hours a day, joins clubs, plays outside, AND enjoys a half hour of cartoons (or whatever) a day?
It's not my argument you have a problem with. I said some television in extreme moderation (30 minutes to an hour at most) is probably alright. But, honestly, do you really think what you have described is the average schedule for 99% of Americans today?

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Who knows why someone is watching any show? Yeah, "The Real Hosewives of Orange County" is a joke. There is no real value in the show. But if someone gets a good laugh from watching it, where's the harm?
I don't know this show, so I can't really comment on it, but I'll just say in general, someone watching this show is probably watching the other 18 shows like it on television. If this hypothetical person watched this one show and that was all he watched of television, I guess that would be okay, but someone doing that would be an oddity. I'm all for some stupid humor every now and then--personally, I enjoy Late Night with Conan and sometimes if I'm not doing anything when it airs I'll check it out. But there's a difference between one little break in the day to relax and spending 8 hrs a day doing so. Plus, I'm guessing the humor to be found on shows like the one you mentioned is of the empty, celebrity worshipping, materialistic nonsense, but I don't know the show so I can't say anything.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:00 PM   #19
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Who's going to be the thought police: the free market or the government?
Lose, Lose.
And reading isn't necessarily good in and of itself. Tori Spelling (I have no idea what she is famous from) and Paris Hilton have books. Plus, most paperback novels are garbage, along with most best-sellers. If you're going to read that, you might as well just turn on the TV.
I think that is my point, though. Right now the free market is the thought police. Market shares determines what airs, people love money, sex, violence, shouting matches, and entertainment which doesn't require hard work or serious thought. Voila! There's your television lineup!

And while I agree with you that reading isn't necessarily good in itself...I think you would have to work hard to find a book that is quite as stupid and mindnumbing as the average reality tv show. Plus, almost any form of reading requires more suspended concentration and active thought than any television program, which is literally projected at you even as you sleep. I mean, I'm no fan of trash novels, and I think people should be reading the classics instead, but even the worst paper back novels are a little better than television, IMO.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:02 PM   #20
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And, along with what Ellis said, the deeper problem as I see it isn't that parents aren't regulating what their kids do, it's that most of them aren't even capable of doing so in a positive way. I think if there is ideally a more important role for a parent to play than the 'libertarian' role, provided they are semi-intelligent people with good sensibilities, but most parents today are nothing more than giant-sized children.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:38 PM   #21
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I think that is my point, though. Right now the free market is the thought police. Market shares determines what airs, people love money, sex, violence, shouting matches, and entertainment which doesn't require hard work or serious thought. Voila! There's your television lineup!
But most people don't want serious thought, and I think that's the biggest problem. You can't force (or even convince) people to turn off Sean Hannity or Chris Matthews and start reading Rousseau, Locke, Proudhon, Marx, etc.

What would be nice is if Fox News, CNN, etc. aired stuff on those guys and their relevance to today, but, again, there's no market for it. You can't force people to do any critical thinking.

In Praise of Idleness by Russell adds a suggestion; if people worked less hours, they would have more energy and time, which would lead them to read and think more. That may help, but, again, I don't think that would necessarily make anyone want to pick up a book.


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but most parents today are nothing more than giant-sized children.
True, true.

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And while I agree with you that reading isn't necessarily good in itself...I think you would have to work hard to find a book that is quite as stupid and mindnumbing as the average reality tv show. Plus, almost any form of reading requires more suspended concentration and active thought than any television program, which is literally projected at you even as you sleep. I mean, I'm no fan of trash novels, and I think people should be reading the classics instead, but even the worst paper back novels are a little better than television, IMO.
I agree with you, although i still think that you would have to weed-out a lot of books, as a lot of people who have or produce garbage on TV also have their garbage in book form. But you're right: at least reading the garbage instead of watching it helps your attention span, reading comprehension ability, etc.

I read parts of a book (I'll have to pick it up sometime) called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter. It documents (if I remember correctly, he thought the anti-int. movement started with the Republican Party to try and make Adlai Stevenson look out-of-touch with the average American) how reading and intellectualism became "unfashionable" in the U.S.

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Old 03-16-2009, 07:45 PM   #22
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Parenting? Have you seen the parents in America?

33-50% are divorced, 99% want to climb the social ladder, and 85% are complete morons.

If kids took less example from their parents, America would be a much better place.
Dear Lord...

I'm beginning to think college is getting the better of you Rob.



Maybe I worded that badly but the point I was making is that the world used to be an adult place where children did as they were told and then either benefited from that experience, ignored it or said to hell with it regardless of how good/bad the parents were. This all gets back to our last conversation where I tried explaining how actual events and systematic processes could be used...and were used...for people to actually develop a personality and some sort of functional ability to live in society. At that point they could actually be considered valuable to others and of some use.

I'm gonna cut you some slack though cuz that day is long gone...well before your time.

But the idea was that regardless of how a parent raised their child the kid still had to operate in a world designed by adults...for better or worse. Today's world is run by youth culture where the unproven and latest shortcut can always provide a last minute excuse on why something did/didn't get done. In the old days, few people even thought of living that way...where you simply tried to bargain your way out of everything. That's the norm now.

Parents influencing their kids is seen as a negative now. And you're right that most are just giant-sized kids as well. But the thing you're missing (and your generation as a whole) is that working thru your own influences/identity/experiences one can properly judge the values of their parents to actually better themselves. Bottom line Rob: that's the definition of growing up.

That's why your religion example isn't all its cracked up to be. I see your point but essentially what you are saying is that kids must be able to find and learn from life on their own from ground zero. Sorry Rob, but that's the current state of affairs and quite frankly, your generation has done about as poor of a job as possible in experiencing life (cuz the majority are totally sheltered) and forming an identity from it. They simply don't have the maturity and will to do so. There's nothing wrong with the older generation sharing their values thru who they are to their kids. In essence, that's how kids are gonna best be served when they embrace the good stuff and when they shelve the b.s. (which religion is... on a personal note...cuz I'm with ya). But without the experience to draw from, it's simply gonna come across as a crybaby contest. Which, by the way, is how I would describe 99% of your generation's means of going thru life and getting things.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:32 PM   #23
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That's why your religion example isn't all its cracked up to be. I see your point but essentially what you are saying is that kids must be able to find and learn from life on their own from ground zero. Sorry Rob, but that's the current state of affairs and quite frankly, your generation has done about as poor of a job as possible in experiencing life (cuz the majority are totally sheltered) and forming an identity from it. They simply don't have the maturity and will to do so. There's nothing wrong with the older generation sharing their values thru who they are to their kids. In essence, that's how kids are gonna best be served when they embrace the good stuff and when they shelve the b.s. (which religion is... on a personal note...cuz I'm with ya). But without the experience to draw from, it's simply gonna come across as a crybaby contest. Which, by the way, is how I would describe 99% of your generation's means of going thru life and getting things.
I agree that starting from ground zero is where our culture is (or at least close to) and it's turned out to be a wreck, but I still think it's right.

My generation? I don't identify it, so I don't consider myself of a member of it; if you want to find someone who identifies with it, talk to CK

"Experience"... I just don't see the word in the same way that you do. Again, I don't think that we're ever going to come to terms about this word/notation, so it's not really worth getting into.

If you have a problem with anyone, it should be with the parents of today's children. I'm sure you have to deal with them all of the time, and any moral decay has certainly started with them and worked its way down.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:11 PM   #24
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I agree that starting from ground zero is where our culture is (or at least close to) and it's turned out to be a wreck, but I still think it's right.
It isn't necessary...that's all Rob.

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My generation? I don't identify it, so I don't consider myself of a member of it; if you want to find someone who identifies with it, talk to CK


That remark is all you.



Just because you don't identify with it doesn't mean you aren't stuck with its products or way of life. You're forced to...to a certain extent. I mean, I consider you to be a bright and reflective kid Rob but honestly...unless you go out of your way...really out of your way...to find something of substance in your life you'll be doomed to a life of a typical young person today: useless, over-analyzing, lack of value. That's because culture today is set up where you can go thru life without ever playing a hand (to paraphrase Good Will Hunting).

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"Experience"... I just don't see the word in the same way that you do. Again, I don't think that we're ever going to come to terms about this word/notation, so it's not really worth getting into.
Experience means you go thru something unrehearsed and gain a value/POV thru it. Then you apply that value in trial and error thru other experiences. This is how someone acquires a personality Rob. Your generation would rather use technology/academia/sounding boards to attain an angle/viewpoint that makes them feel rightetous or loved than actually get up and get involved in something. Don't get me wrong, technology/academia/sounding boards have their place in the development of a person but we've quickly become a nation of followers without merit cuz everyone would rather have the established views speak for them as to not show "weakness" or "vulnerability".


If you still can't make this out...don't sweat it. It's probably the generational divide...nothing more.

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If you have a problem with anyone, it should be with the parents of today's children. I'm sure you have to deal with them all of the time, and any moral decay has certainly started with them and worked its way down.
Of course this is true but what I'm saying to you...as a member of the younger generation...is...well...what are you going to do about it?

That's the point here. Every generation has been lied to but this one simply doesn't care. And they don't care with an abundant amount of resources and angles to see and overthrow the b.s. like never before. THAT'S the primary root of the disdain I have for younger people.

Really, this isn't a generational battle as it seems to turn into on here...and maybe I don't do a good enough job of explaining either. Your generation has so much at its disposal (the shear amount of b.s. from my generation is enough to chew on) combined with access/opportunity that I just find it a shame that most young people today don't use what they have before them.

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Old 03-16-2009, 10:38 PM   #25
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That's because culture today is set up where you can go thru life without ever playing a hand (to paraphrase Good Will Hunting).
True, but I'm not sure what the suggestions are as to be come an active participant... which I think is what you're saying-- people are passive, useless, onlookers.

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Experience means you go thru something unrehearsed and gain a value/POV thru it. Then you apply that value in trial and error thru other experiences. This is how someone acquires a personality Rob. Your generation would rather use technology/academia/sounding boards to attain an angle/viewpoint that makes them feel rightetous or loved than actually get up and get involved in something. Don't get me wrong, technology/academia/sounding boards have their place in the development of a person but we've quickly become a nation of followers without merit cuz everyone would rather have the established views speak for them as to not show "weakness" or "vulnerability".


If you still can't make this out...don't sweat it. It's probably the generational divide...nothing more.
I think this is more of from a gap of ideology than it is from a generational gap. Again, I respect "life experience", but I still don't see it as particularly valuable. You could give two different people the same "life experience" and they're going to be different people. People are more a product of what they read and think-- their internal-life-- than they are of what they've experienced externally.

But I may still not understand what you're saying by "life experience."
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:39 PM   #26
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True, but I'm not sure what the suggestions are as to be come an active participant... which I think is what you're saying-- people are passive, useless, onlookers.



I think this is more of from a gap of ideology than it is from a generational gap. Again, I respect "life experience", but I still don't see it as particularly valuable. You could give two different people the same "life experience" and they're going to be different people. People are more a product of what they read and think-- their internal-life-- than they are of what they've experienced externally.

But I may still not understand what you're saying by "life experience."
Yeah, you aren't getting my definition of life experience. Looks like another...



Questions about this though...

People are more a product of what they read and think-- their internal-life-- than they are of what they've experienced externally.

I couldn't disagree more with this so let me ask ya...

1. How did you come to this conclusion?
2. Where have you seen this...if you have...in your personal life?
3. Does this apply to you?
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:56 PM   #27
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Probably out of my own inability to see what you are saying, we just aren't on the same page-- we're talking about two different things... I think.

If you put two people in the same environment, they'll turn out different. Why? Because they dwell on different things and think about different things. This is why I say that you are more a product of what you think than what you've seen. A person is a product of what they think about it. (This sounds too obvious, though-- I don't think I'm making my point right.)
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:59 PM   #28
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Probably out of my own inability to see what you are saying, we just aren't on the same page-- we're talking about two different things... I think.

If you put two people in the same environment, they'll turn out different. Why? Because they dwell on different things and think about different things. This is why I say that you are more a product of what you think than what you've seen.

But I still think that you are talking about something very different...
Yeah, totally different. You're right, me asking you that going by your definition wouldn't provide me with the insight I was looking for cuz by your explanation in that 2nd paragraph I can tell you are still looking at experience as a means to a solution and I don't see it that way.

But if you can, still answer the questions using your definitions just cuz I'm interested.
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:09 PM   #29
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I'm starting to think that what I call "reading and thinking" is the same thing as experience to you, except mine may be a bit more narrow.

If you wouldn't consider the music you listen to and stuff you read (or don't read) "life experience," why not?
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:18 PM   #30
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I'm starting to think that what I call "reading and thinking" is the same thing as experience to you, except mine may be a bit more narrow.

If you wouldn't consider the music you listen to and stuff you read (or don't read) "life experience," why not?
Yeah, but you read and think certain things due to SOME factor...don't you? People read and think the same things as you and don't come to the same conclusions, right?

I do consider the stuff I read and listen to as "life experience". It mostly reflects values/morals I already have based on actual events that happened in my life though. I like to compare and contrast the views of things I'm familiar with others who are different than me. Anyone not me is different than me but you get the point...I hope.

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