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Old 11-30-2004, 11:54 AM   #1
KevinBeane
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Default Butch Davis axed

Story.

Eh. I wouldn't have, if I was Al Lerner.

Has anyone noticed that the AFC Central...er, North, has become the best in the NFL? And the Browns, with sub-par personnel, have remained competitive. They haven't WON, but their games have been close. If they were in the NFC West, they'd be running away with it.

So Davis has actually done a good job in that regard (at least this year), so unless the Brownies start brining in actual players, they're not gonna be any better. But they might be worse.
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Old 11-30-2004, 12:39 PM   #2
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There are quite a few people out there who aren't exactly sad about this development - Kevin Johnson, Tim Couch and James Jackson come readily to mind.

And close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and nuclear attacks. Davis deserved to go.
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:01 PM   #3
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It's a huge stretch to call that division the best in football. Cincy and Cleveland are pretty awful teams and Baltimore is weaker than their record indicates. While Pittsburgh might be the best team in footbal right now, the division is certainly not competitive.

To think that Cleveland would compete with St. Louis or Seattle in the NFC West is absurd. They're a lousy football team and Davis got the axe that he deserved.
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Graham
It's a huge stretch to call that division the best in football. Cincy and Cleveland are pretty awful teams and Baltimore is weaker than their record indicates. While Pittsburgh might be the best team in footbal right now, the division is certainly not competitive.

To think that Cleveland would compete with St. Louis or Seattle in the NFC West is absurd. They're a lousy football team and Davis got the axe that he deserved.
The Browns might split with Seattle and I GUARANTEE they would sweep the Rams. Look at what they (the Rams) have done the last five weeks...a nice-ish win against the Seahawks at home, and FOUR losses at home by at least THREE SCORES including to the Dolphins. And yet, they're the second best team in the division.

How the hell is Cincinnati "pretty awful?" Can you show me some of the awful things they've done in the last six weeks?
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:44 PM   #5
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I didn't say St. Louis was an impressive team. Not by any stretch, better than Cleveland though. Certainly on Cleveland's level and Cleveland wouldn't be "running away" from them.

Cincy is awful in the sense that I don't think there are a lot of teams they'd beat in a meaningful game.

An awful thing they've done in the past six weeks? Hmmm, are you seriously asking this just days after the Browns hung 48 on them?

Another awful thing the past six weeks...let's see...the Steelers handed them a game where they could have made themselves and they can't win it. I guess that's not exactly awful, but it was a game that a playoff team would have won.

Beating Dallas/Washington is hardly impressive.
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:58 PM   #6
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I'm not going to argue the badness or goodness of the AFC North v the NFC West (overall, the AFC is so superior, it should embarrass the all the guys playing for NFC teams).

I will argue, however, that this is exactly the stage that Mr Davis set for himself. He's getting quite the deal, really. And, given all the DAMAGE that he's done to the Browns organization, I'm stunned that the Browns are paying him the remainder of his contract.

KB notes that the Browns fell down getting Davis the right players. KB needs to better understand, though, who's bought the groceries in the last three years in Cleveland: one Mr Butch (what's his real name, btw?) Davis. He's been the GM in practice if not in title (and maybe he had the title, I don't recall off hand). He chose that .... QB. He opted to draft William Green. And Lee Suggs. Ummm? Well, whatever. He's the guy who carved his linebacking corps from decent-good to inexperienced and initially pathetic. (Sure, their LBs have improved, but uh... they still kinda suck.) He never established an offensive system that Couch could succeed in (if, in fact, Couch can possibly succeed in any professional offense). He kept Holcomb and Couch impossibly off-balance last season, never quite sure which of the two would start each game. And when he did know, he was never sure it was the right call. And why? His fault. He asked his players to do things that they couldn't do and didn't coach them properly, didn't teach them the game. He spent more time creating his kingdom in his first couple seasons than he did coaching. And it cost him.
Or did it?

Now, he's available for Florida, Illinois and Stanford. Or Ohio or Utah St. Or any other college vacancy that may avail itself that no one's considered. (I fully expect UTEP to thank Mike Price for his services and wish him well if the Utah job opens up.)

And he's going to get the remainder of his contract if he doesn't get a job.
He'll get a job. He's a fine--make that VERY GOOD--college coach. He'd likely make a better NFL coordinator than a GM/HC, though. Much like about three to seven current (or almost current) NFL HCs. (Thinking specifically of Mr Martz, Mr Hazlett, Mr Wannstedt.)

His program has been in question by his players from day one in Cleveland, and at no point did it appear that any of his players bought in.

On a personal level, I'm happy. Cleveland is evil. On the other hand, it's too bad. They might actually hire someone who can coach, who can evaluate talent, and create problems for the Steelers down the road in the Big Ben era.

Still... the AFC North looks suddenly like a two-team division again, to me. The Steelers and the Bengals look like the teams of the future. The Ravens appear to be in a slide that can be prevented by a good draft. The Browns will need a year or two to recover from the damage that Davis has done.

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Old 11-30-2004, 02:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by MountaineerDave
Now, he's available for Florida, Illinois and Stanford. Or Ohio or Utah St. Or any other college vacancy that may avail itself that no one's considered. (I fully expect UTEP to thank Mike Price for his services and wish him well if the Utah job opens up.)

And he's going to get the remainder of his contract if he doesn't get a job.
He'll get a job. He's a fine--make that VERY GOOD--college coach. He'd likely make a better NFL coordinator than a GM/HC, though. Much like about three to seven current (or almost current) NFL HCs. (Thinking specifically of Mr Martz, Mr Hazlett, Mr Wannstedt.)
I officially throw Davis into the PSU hat. JOEPA MUST GO!

And, Kevin, my saying Cincy is "pretty awful" is probably a bit of a stretch. It just comes down to how I view the league, really. To me, there are the Patriots, Steelers and Eagles at the top. Then some teams that are going to have solid records, but really aren't in the same class as these three teams. Then everyone else can just hope for entertaining.

Cincy certainly isn't Miami levels of awful.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:23 PM   #8
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I agree Doug. There's those three teams, then a line. Two lines, even. Then you can start listing off other teams. Cincinnati and Cleveland both (at least in the last 5 or six games) have hung tough or beat everyone they have played. If you take the bottom two from any other conference, you'll probably see far uglier happenings than what the division and the Browns have done. I guess that's my point, which I was stretching, too.

But this conversation motivated me to crunch some numbers, and it (barely) bore out what I said, and most of all, bore out what Dave said about the conferences....

1) At 15-9, the AFC North has the best combined out-of-division record in the NFL (by percentage points over the AFC East, which is 16-10).

2) Counting all games, incuding division games, both the AFC East and the AFC North are 25-19.

3. The WORST division in the AFC, counting all games, is the AFC West at 22-22. The BEST divisions in the NFC are ALSO 22-22 (East and North). That speaks towards the dominance of the AFC this year.

4. The NFC West is 8-20 outside the division. The Rams are 4-0 in the division and 1-6 outside of it. It reminds that, since we have switched to 8-four team divisions and since everyone plays 10 oit-of-division games and just six division games, we're gonna see a division winner/playoff team with a record of 7-9 or worse, and it'll happen soon, if not this year.
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:26 PM   #9
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Maybe Davis will go back to the college ranks and coach Florida. Meyer won't be since the ND job is now open.
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:02 PM   #10
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The NFL is crazy to a point. If you do not win the Superbowl in 3 or so year you are fired.

Look at Cowart.

His teams go up and down but they stick with him.

Dungy? The Superbowl win in Tampa was really his. Every year he was in the play-offs, how do you axe him? Any other team would love to be in the play-offs every year..... Arizona, Washington and so on.

Just like when JJ left the Cowboys, the next year the Cowboys won but that was really JJ's team.

Sometimes coaches should leave but many times the team should stick with the coach even if he has a bad team 3 or so years, sometimes you need to rebuild.

I just hate seeing good coaches leave in less then 5 years. As many would like to see a coach come in and take a team to the SB in 2 years it really doesn't happen like that.

Bill Parcells is a good coach but people act like he has magic. The first year with the Cowboys he had a slack schedual. The Cowboys won the games that the were suppose to win and won none of the games they needed to win. What I mean is look at the teams the lost too. All of them had winning records. All the teams the Cowboys beat had loosing records at the time the played.

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Old 11-30-2004, 06:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaddEnemy
The NFL is crazy to a point. If you do not win the Superbowl in 3 or so year you are fired.

Look at Cowart.

His teams go up and down but they stick with him.

Dungy? The Superbowl win in Tampa was really his. Every year he was in the play-offs, how do you axe him? Any other team would love to be in the play-offs every year..... Arizona, Washington and so on.

Just like when JJ left the Cowboys, the next year the Cowboys won but that was really JJ's team.

Sometimes coaches should leave but many times the team should stick with the coach even if he has a bad team 3 or so years, sometimes you need to rebuild.

I just hate seeing good coaches leave in less then 5 years. As many would like to see a coach come in and take a team to the SB in 2 years it really doesn't happen like that.

Bill Parcells is a good coach but people act like he has magic. The first year with the Cowboys he had a slack schedual. The Cowboys won the games that the were suppose to win and won none of the games they needed to win. What I mean is look at the teams the lost too. All of them had winning records. All the teams the Cowboys beat had loosing records at the time the played.
if Tony Dungy doesn't win the superbowl this year, he should be fired
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:14 PM   #12
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The thing is that too many teams have quick turnaround and every owner in the league wants that turnaround to happen with their team. It has been quick to find out whether or not a team is going to turnaround, which is why if it doesn't happen, these coaches find the door.
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:32 PM   #13
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i hate how the coaches always get blamed when it's a player(s) fault or when the player(s) get blamed when it's the coaches fault
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:37 PM   #14
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Wow, this thread has hit on a lot of points.

1] I think coaches should fired during the season only in the most exceptional of circumstances. Letting Davis go at the end of the season, I have no problem with. Axing him now I consider a bad call, unless Lerner is genuinely considering Terry Robiskie as next year's HC, which I doubt.

2] The AFC North is one of the three best divisions in football. The NFC West is certainly the weakest division this season, and while I agree that the Browns would be competitive (Arizona is), it's a stretch to say they'd be "running away with it".

3] Paul Hilton Davis.

4] Dave, the coach/coordinator issue you cite is a function of overexpansion in the NFL. Ten years ago the league had 28 teams, and now that's up by almost 15%. There simply aren't enough good head coaches to fill 32 spots.

5] I think right now there are four teams separated from the pack. The Colts are playing right now the way they did in the first two rounds of the playoffs last season. No one except New England would have beaten them then, and I don't think anyone but the top three would have much chance against them right now.

6] This is so obvious I probably don't have to say it, but Tony Dungy should not be fired.
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brad O.
6] This is so obvious I probably don't have to say it, but Tony Dungy should not be fired.
:stupid: ya, it was a joke
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