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Old 08-19-2008, 01:02 PM   #16
buckeyefan78
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Give me a well-read 20 year old any day over an illiterate 80 year old with "life experience."
Spoken like a true well-read 20 year oldish person.



BTW...Welcome back CK.

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Old 08-19-2008, 01:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Spoken like a true well-read 20 year oldish person.



BTW...Welcome back CK.

Thanks Buck. :thumbup:
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Spoken like a true well-read 20 year oldish person.



BTW...Welcome back CK.

Like he said, "welcome back CK."
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:42 PM   #19
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Thanks DET.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Give me a well-read 20 year old any day over an illiterate 80 year old with "life experience."
I'd take the 80-year old who's lived life, knows humanity through
personal experience, knows what the depression was like, remembers
the economic malaise under Carter, remembers the Soviet Union
falling under Reagan, remembers the Vietnam War, has gained wisdom
about life through human experience, has worked a lifetime possibly
running a business...

...rather than a 20-year old who's read a bunch of leftist literature
like Marx.

There's an old Native American saying that says something like,
"you cannot be wise, unless you have silver in your hair."
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
I'd take the 80-year old who's lived life, knows humanity through
personal experience, knows what the depression was like, remembers
the economic malaise under Carter, remembers the Soviet Union
falling under Reagan, remembers the Vietnam War, has gained wisdom
about life through human experience, has worked a lifetime possibly
running a business...

...rather than a 20-year old who's read a bunch of leftist literature
like Marx.

There's an old Native American saying that says something like,
"you cannot be wise, unless you have silver in your hair."
I don't know Phil. This kinda seems like a shot at CK. It's fine if you want to say life experience, regardless of political/social slant, is a valuable commodity but I think singling out the leftish literature like Marx remark is pretty petty.

I probably get worked up over the generational divide the most simply based on age...regardless if I'm dealing with a 20-year-old Marxist or a 20-year-old capitalist.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
I don't know Phil. This kinda seems like a shot at CK.
I poke CK sometimes, but we know where we stand with eachother, I think.
He already knows that I think he might change over the course of the
years, and that I'm not impressed by Marx. I'm aware that he might like
me to read some more literature that he likes.

But, to the point, most of the literature and instruction people get in
college is leftist in slant (unless you go to Hillsdale College, or
Thomas Aquinas College).
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:46 PM   #23
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I poke CK sometimes, but we know where we stand with eachother, I think.
He already knows that I think he might change over the course of the
years, and that I'm not impressed by Marx. I'm aware that he might like
me to read some more literature that he likes.

But, to the point, most of the literature and instruction people get in
college is leftist in slant (unless you go to Hillsdale College, or
Thomas Aquinas College).
Sure it is. I'm well aware of the MAINSTREAM LIBERAL LEFTIST leaning that the academic world promotes. I don't see why people have a problem with it. It isn't like institutional corporation known as higher education has provided any relief to the masses though.

Mainstream liberals have the universities. Mainstream conservatives have organized religion.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:54 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Mainstream liberals have the universities. Mainstream conservatives have organized religion.
Okay, Buck, I'll agree this is true, to a point. It's ashame that they
have to be at war with eachother.

I'll trust my Catholic faith more than a lot of the insipid crap I got
in college.

Mainstream liberalism has the universities, the mainstream media,
and the entertainment industry.

Mainstream conservativism has much (but not all) of American religion,
and the alternate media (i.e. talk radio, and some of the internet outlets).

Okay, that's an observation, but not sure where that leads us.

My ultimate position is that I don't want the government to become
controlled by the radical left (i.e., a huge, controlling, micromanaging
government). This would be far worse than religion being "controlled
by the right", as you describe, for one demonstrably irrefutable reason:
Religion is optional. Government is not.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
Okay, Buck, I'll agree this is true, to a point. It's ashame that they
have to be at war with eachother.

I'll trust my Catholic faith more than a lot of the insipid crap I got
in college.

Mainstream liberalism has the universities, the mainstream media,
and the entertainment industry.

Mainstream conservativism has much (but not all) of American religion,
and the alternate media (i.e. talk radio, and some of the internet outlets).

Okay, that's an observation, but not sure where that leads us.

My ultimate position is that I don't want the government to become
controlled by the radical left (i.e., a huge, controlling, micromanaging
government). This would be far worse than religion being "controlled
by the right", as you describe, for one demonstrably irrefutable reason:
Religion is optional. Government is not.
I agree with all of this til the very end. I despise both camps of the mainstream conservative (organized religion, talk radio) and liberal (so-called higher education, Hollywood) movements. They simply use highly organized autonomous institutions to distribute their propaganda to seize/hold the limited wealth in this nation.

I don't want the government to be controlled by the radical left or radical right or radical anything. I want the government to be of the people, by the people, for the people (sound familiar? ) and not either institution. No side is better in my eyes.

Religion in theocracies is not optional and billions of people on earth have been raped, murdered, tortured in its name that had no affiliation with either side. Government isn't optional but if it's of,by and for the people...at the very least you get to die on your own terms or nearly close to it. Speaking from experience, this is basically what most oppressed people in this nation would ask for at this point...IMO.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Religion in theocracies is not optional and billions of people on earth have been raped, murdered, tortured in its name that had no affiliation with either side.
Yes...in theocracies, where the religion and the government
are one in the same. This is the case in many Islamic nations, today.

However, I would contend that torture, murder, and loss of rights has
tended to occur mostly in rampantly secularist nations, such as
Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Communist China.

Not so in nations that have embraced the Judeo-Christian values of
personal dignity and freedom (such as the United States, for the most
part).

Let's not confuse the Judeo-Christian values of the United States with
the Islamic values of nations like Iran.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:20 PM   #27
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Just for the record, I've read plenty of conservative literature. I've even read many of the Nazi-like ideas of current neo-cons.

I've also read a lot of good fiction, including the Bible, and parts of the Qur'an.

But I'm sure the illiterate 80 year old could tell you the major differences between the cultures and beliefs of Islamic Saudis and Evangelical Kansans.

Don't get me wrong, life experience is valuable, but without proper perspective and specific experiences, it is worthless.

I'm sure you'd agree that an 80 year old that has never left his one-bedroom home isn't very knowledgable.

Quote:
However, I would contend that torture, murder, and loss of rights has
tended to occur mostly in rampantly secularist nations, such as
Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Communist China.

Not so in nations that have embraced the Judeo-Christian values of
personal dignity and freedom (such as the United States, for the most
part).

Let's not confuse the Judeo-Christian values of the United States with
the Islamic values of nations like Iran.
Phil. America is a SECULARIST nation.

Nazi Germany was filled with devout Christians.

Religion is the single most destructive myth ever propagated on the human race.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:26 PM   #28
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Ehh... Jose Saramago said in the opening line of his Nobel lecture that the wisest man he ever knew couldn't read or write.

I guess it's a question of wisdom versus knowledge: I like them both equally, although a wise and knowledgeable person is ideal, like some grizzly guy that lives in isolation reading books all day.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Phil. America is a SECULARIST nation.
Secular government, religious nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Nazi Germany was filled with devout Christians.
But run by atheists intent on killing all Jews, Catholics, disabled, homosexuals,
and others. Some used the excuse that they were doing it in the name of
Christianity, but true Christians (and those not duped by Hitler and the Nazi
regime) protested vehemently, if they weren't threatened to be killed
themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Religion is the single most destructive myth ever propagated on the human race.
As far as religion being a "myth", I do know by now that that's where you
live right now. Otherwise, you're a good guy, CK, which is why I sincerely
hope you change someday. Until then, only the afterlife will prove to us
which one of us is right or wrong, on this score.

As far as being "destructive", communism has been destructive.

Religion (i.e. the consciousness of the divine) has been the single most
positive force toward overcoming our naturally animalistic nature.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
As far as religion being a "myth", I do know by now that that's where you
live right now. Otherwise, you're a good guy, CK, which is why I sincerely
hope you change someday. Until then, only the afterlife will prove to us
which one of us is right or wrong, on this score.

As far as being "destructive", communism has been destructive.

Religion (i.e. the consciousness of the divine) has been the single most
positive force toward overcoming our naturally animalistic nature.
I hope you change, but other than that you are a decent person
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