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Old 01-16-2008, 12:49 AM   #1
Brad O.
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Exclamation HOF Finalists

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...?story_id=2640

Cris Carter Wide Receiver 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Fred Dean Defensive End 1975-1981 San Diego Chargers, 1981-85 San Francisco 49ers
Richard Dent Defensive End 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles
Marshall Goldberg Back 1939-1943, 1946-48 Chicago Cardinals
Randy Gradishar Linebacker 1974-1983 Denver Broncos
Darrell Green Cornerback 1983-2002 Washington Redskins
Russ Grimm Guard 1981-1991 Washington Redskins
Ray Guy Punter 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Bob Kuechenberg Guard 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins
Randall McDaniel Guard 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-2001 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Art Monk Wide Receiver 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Andre Reed Wide Receiver 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Paul Tagliabue Commissioner 1989-2006 National Football League
Derrick Thomas Linebacker 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Emmitt Thomas Cornerback 1966-1978 Kansas City Chiefs
Andre Tippett Linebacker 1982-1993 New England Patriots
Gary Zimmerman Tackle 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-97 Denver Broncos

===

I've already aired my opinion in this year's class in this thread, continued here when the semi-finalists were announced.

Up to seven can be elected. I like: Fred Dean, Randy Gradishar, Darrell Green, Russ Grimm, Art Monk, and Paul Tagliabue. Maybe Carter, Kuechenberg, McDaniel, or Zimmerman, too. Probably Zim, just so I'm not repeating positions.

I do think Carter should get in, but not before Monk.

I'm a little surprised that three guards got to the final round, but Dermontti Dawson didn't. I'm very surprised that Terrell Davis is not a finalist. And I'm not a fan of Raider conspiracies, but I don't know how Lester Hayes is not a finalist.

I am going to throw a g-ddamn tantrum if Carter gets in this year and Monk doesn't, or if both Senior candidates get in. Marshall Goldberg? Come on.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:05 PM   #2
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I think they will take the Minimum amount of guys. The fact that they have a minimum is disgusting by the way.

Chris Carter
Darrell Green
Art Monk( Hopefully)
Paul Tagliabue.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:27 PM   #3
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Carter and Monk both deserve to get in. I'm not sure how you can say Monk first, but I am from MN, so I'm aware of my potential bias. I also like Andre Reed and Derrick Thomas a lot, along with the others Brad O. named with the exception of Zimmerman, he is definitely after all most of the other linemen, but he is not a guard, which helps his case I guess.
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:58 AM   #4
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Emmitt Thomas getting in would be a nice consolation prize, been as he has no shot of being retained as HC of the Falcons.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:10 AM   #5
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I think Terrell Davis's shortened career is what keeps him from more serious HOF consideration. Had injuries not forced him out of the game for a few more years, even had they been average statistically, I think he likely gets in.
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrovant View Post
I think Terrell Davis's shortened career is what keeps him from more serious HOF consideration. Had injuries not forced him out of the game for a few more years, even had they been average statistically, I think he likely gets in.
Agreed. He really only had two great years and one good season.
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Old 01-17-2008, 04:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublee View Post
Agreed. He really only had two great years and one good season.
I'm going to disagree with this.

I assume you're pegging 1997 and '98 as the "great" years. That's pretty tough to argue against.

But why isn't 1996 a great year? 1538 yards, 4.5 average, 15 total TDs is just a "good" season? What running back had a better season in 1996 than Davis?

....................Yds....Avg....TD...Rec Yd...Rec TD
T.Davis
........1538....4.5....13.....310.........2
B.Sanders
....1553....5.1....11.....147.........0
J.Bettis
........1431....4.5....11.....122........0
R.Watters
....1411....4.0....13.....444.........0
E.George
......1368....4.1.....8......182........0
T.Allen
.........1353....3.9....21.....194.........0
A.Murrell
......1249....4.1.....6.......81.........0
E.Smith
........1204....3.7....12.....249........3
C.Martin
.......1152....3.6....14.....333........3
A.Johnson
....1120....3.7.....6......192........0

I think the only way to argue that Davis did not have the best season of any RB in 1996 is if you have a love for touchdowns beyond any rational explanation, and you want Terry Allen, or if you argue for Barry Sanders.

Their rushing yardage is basically the same, but Davis used an extra 38 carries. Edge, Sanders. Davis had two more TDs and 13 more first downs, but I'll still keep the edge with Sanders. I think everyone would acknowledge, though, that this is pretty close.

Where Davis goes ahead, I think, is as a receiver. He had more than twice as many receiving yards, and another two TDs. Does +148 total yards and +4 TDs make up for +0.6 in rushing average? I believe it does. One could argue that Sanders did all this with a lesser offensive line, and I think that's true, but the counter-argument is that at this stage in his career, Sanders was never asked to run in short-yardage situations. Davis' average sinks because he was the guy getting the ball on 3rd-and-1. Terrell Davis had the best season of any running back in 1996, and should be recognized with a third "great" year.

I also think it's strange not to designate 1995 as even a "good" season for the rookie Davis. He ranked 9th in the NFL in rushing yards (1,117), 4th in rushing average (4.7), and 15th in rushing TDs (7), plus the best season of his career as a receiver (49 rec, 367 yards, 1 TD).

A 1000-yard season with a 4.7 average isn't even "good"? What's your standard, doublee, Jim Brown?

Speaking of Jim Brown, did anyone other than Brown ever have a better three-year stretch at RB than Davis from 1996-98? There are a few possibilities, most notably Marshall Faulk (1999-2001) and O.J. Simpson (1973-75), but I don't think there's anything definite.

I would also argue that Davis had one of the best postseason careers of any RB in history. He ran for over 100 yards in seven of his eight postseason games. In the other one he had 91 yards with a 6.5 average, 7 catches, and a touchdown. Davis averaged 142.5 rushing yards per game in the postseason, a record that will probably never be broken. He rushed for 1140 yards in eight games in the playoffs, with a 5.4 average. He and Emmitt Smith are the only RBs to be named both league MVP and Super Bowl MVP.

Davis was just as dominant in a short career as Gale Sayers or Earl Campbell, and they're not just Hall of Famers, they're in greatest-of-all-time conversations. I don't think Davis is a GOAT candidate. I don't even think he's among the 20 greatest RBs in history. But I think he's probably the best HOF-eligible RB not enshrined in Canton, and it boggles my mind that he wasn't even a finalist this season.
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:20 PM   #8
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But, just because someone arguably has the best season at his given position does not mean it was an exceptional season though, but I'll give it to you since he did go to the Pro Bowl that year. I am saying in the context of the history of the game Davis' season that year was a good season but nothing exceptional when you put against the overall numbers of the game. Besides, even if you give him that year that is only 3 great seasons which makes it a tough sell to some folks.

An 1,100 yard season in the era of a 16 game season is nothing exceptional though.

Ultimately, how many other 3-time Pro Bowlers would you argue for inclusion into the HOF. For as long as he played Davis was amazing it just a hard sale for a guy who basically only played four full season. It is pretty much the same argument that has kept Don Mattingly out of baseball's HOF.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:50 PM   #9
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Doublee, you are wrong. I feel that Terrell Davis is a borderline Hall of Famer, and I probably wouldn't complain if he never gets in. But we're discussing two specific seasons, and your evaluation of them leaves something to be desired.

It sounds like you've conceded the 1996 season, but how is 1538 yards, 4.5 average, and 15 total TDs anything but great?

Here's a list of every 1500-yard season in the 1990s:

Emmitt Smith, 1991, 1992, 1995
Barry Sanders, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997
Barry Foster, 1992
Chris Warren, 1994
Terrell Davis, 1996, 1997, 1998
Jerome Bettis, 1997
Jamal Anderson, 1998
Garrison Hearst, 1998
Edgerrin James, 1999

1500-yard seasons were not cheap when Davis played. Other than Sanders and Smith, who are probably among the top 5 RBs in history, Davis is the only player with multiple 1500-yard seasons in that decade. Sanders had 5, Davis had 3, Smith had 3, and seven other players had one each. Hey, does that mean Thurman Thomas never had a great season?

What if we take that list,then cut off everyone who didn't score 15 touchdowns?

Emmitt Smith, 1992, 1995
Barry Sanders, 1991
Terrell Davis, 1996, 1997, 1998
Jamal Anderson, 1998
Edgerrin James, 1999

Davis 3, Smith 2, three others with 1.

Not a great season? The whole decade featured only eight 1500/15 seasons, three of them by two of the greatest RBs ever to play, and Davis, who had three of the remaining five, only had two great seasons? Dude, you were wrong, and not just because Davis made the frickin' Pro Bowl.

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Originally Posted by doublee View Post
An 1,100 yard season in the era of a 16 game season is nothing exceptional though.
Exceptional, no. But you've implied -- twice now -- that it counts for nothing. Davis had a good year in 1995. 1,117 yards isn't exceptional, but it's not nothing, and a 4.7 average is pretty nice. In fact, that season, only one other 1000-yard rusher had a better average: Sanders. I rate Davis as the 6th-best back of 1995, and that's certainly not exceptional, but it is very good. If he hadn't been a rookie 6th-round draft pick with little to no name recognition, Davis would have made the Pro Bowl that year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublee View Post
Ultimately, how many other 3-time Pro Bowlers would you argue for inclusion into the HOF.
Twenty-four.

Dick Anderson
Mark Bavaro
Terry Bradshaw
Terrell Davis
Tommy Davis
Henry Ellard
Tom Fears
Rodney Harrison
Crazylegs Hirsch
Paul Hornung
Tombstone Jackson
Daryl Johnston
Charlie Joiner
Jerry Kramer
Ron Kramer
Brian Mitchell
Art Monk
Ozzie Newsome
Ray Nitschke
Joe Perry
John Riggins
Lynn Swann
Otis Taylor
Adam Vinatieri

The above is a list of players who made 3 Pro Bowls or fewer and either are in the Hall of Fame, or who I would argue for inclusion, plus a kicker who I personally wouldn't argue for, but many others would. I have omitted pre-1950 players, since the Pro Bowl wasn't always held in those seasons.

Last edited by Brad O.; 01-19-2008 at 05:24 PM. Reason: two minor edits for accuracy and clarity
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:30 PM   #10
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Redskins' Green, Monk headline HOF class; Tagliabue shut out again


PHOENIX -- It was a Hall of Fame day for the Washington Redskins, with Art Monk and Darrell Green elected to the shrine Saturday. Former commissioner Paul Tagliabue failed to get in for the second straight year.

"There's going to be a party at Redskin Park soon," Green said while talking by teleconference with Monk.

Also voted in were New England linebacker Andre Tippett, San Diego/San Francisco defensive end Fred Dean, Minnesota/Denver tackle Gary Zimmerman and senior committee choice, Kansas City cornerback Emmitt Thomas....

Perhaps the most surprising outcome was Tagliabue again not getting enough support.

In his 17 years as commissioner, the NFL experienced no labor stoppages, while its revenues from TV contracts skyrocketed. There also were expansions to Jacksonville, Charlotte, Cleveland and Houston under his watch, and several teams moved into new stadiums, many of them built with public funds.

But many, including some reporters on the 44-member selection committee, found Tagliabue unapproachable and uncooperative.

*****************************************


Great to see Monk finally get in & Green getting in on the first shot was a worthy compliment for being a beast in the secondary for what seemed to be a 1000 years. Both all time favorites...

I like all the choices especially Thomas but the obvious human element ruining the Tags inclusion is just childish & silly. He'll get in at some point but this just smacks of immaturity & back biting...
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