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Old 07-26-2006, 12:54 PM   #16
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Buss won championships before West was MADE GM but he was in the organization and involved in decisions...to say the least. Bill Sharman and Chick Hearn had to convince West a little to draft Magic over Sidney Moncrief. That's the ONLY thing you can give West grief over and it's only the fact he BRIEFLY thought of Moncrief over Magic. And in the end he drafted the right guy.
I don't understand how this is keeping Kobe over Shaq related.

Everyone agree's West is a great GM. Everyone agree's that keeping Phil Jackson over West was a bad move. But Kobe is still better to build around than Shaq.

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Whatever world it is easier to trade a guy already under contract (Shaq) AND GETTING EQUAL VALUE FOR HIM instead of letting a guy who is unsigned go or to do a sign and trade with him (as in Kobe) must have people poppin' insanity pills in it.
Riiiiight.

Keep the guy that disrespects the organization, doesn't get in shape, and has shown NO signs of getting in shape or trying just because he is under contract. Keeping Shaq means Kobe leaves, and that Shaq would demand the contract he wanted, five years extended to when he is 38.

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Pat Riley motivated Shaq this past season. Jerry West motivated Shaq in the late 90s and early 2000s. I wonder where those two guys got their starts? I also wonder who wouldn't pay them or share ownership that eventually sent them on their way....hmmm...interesting.
West motivated Shaq?

To what? Getting swept by the Jazz?

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Shaq leaves with $27 million on his contract.

The Lakers acquire Odom ( $11 million), Grant ( $18 million) and Butler ( $2.5 million) from Miami for Shaq. Plus they sign Kobe to $15 million a year.
While the Heat signed Walker

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Let's play the adding game...

11 + 18 + 2.5 + 15 = $46.5 million. Shaq cost $27 million. 46>27 according to my math.
Let's be real techical.

Lakers add players to surround Kobe and you count it.

Heat added players to surround Shaq and you don't.

11+18+8(Kwame)+15(not counted for the salaries)=52 million. 37 million counted for the cap.

Shaq+Walker+Jason Williams+Posey

27(Shaq salary in LA)+8+7+6=48 million. All counted to the cap.

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IF Buss still had a man of integrity in his front office (besides Magic and Rambis who have to be suicidal if you ask me) perhaps Shaq takes the paycut he took for Riley. But you need a man in there who commands respect
Integrity does not mean giving the guy who refuses to honor his contract everything he wants.

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Also of interest is how Buss went WAY over the salary cap and the Lakers actually had a higher payroll the first year post-Shaq than they did during the 3peat. He goes over the cap for Kobe, why not for a Shaq-only team? Plus he would have had more money to do so because 46-27 = $19 million.
I would be assuming that along with the 27 million of Shaq, he would add others. So obviously, having three guys who are 46 million is cheaper than 27 million plus other people Shaq wanted. Guys like Posey, Walker, and Williams.

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Giving double and triple teams to Shaq ALLOWED Wade to operate on the perimeter because Dallas had a strategy of "let Wade beat us instead of Shaq." Yea foolish, but Shaq got his ring. BTW...what were Kobe's numbers in the 04 Finals compared to Wade's 06 Finals? Come to think of it, what were Shaq's numbers in 04 compared to 06? Seems like Wade dominated much more than Kobe did while Shaq's numbers were WAY down from 04. And don't give me the "Mavs suck at D story." I believe Wade beat the Pistons in the earlier round...the same Pistons who put the clamps on Mr. Bryant.
Funny.

One would argue that Wade and Kobe are more important than Shaq. Dallas says let Wade beat us and Wade did.

Pistons said let Shaq beat us, and he didn't. Wade didn't see the double teams Kobe had, nor did Kobe get 19 free throws per game.

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I don't ponder these things anymore. I'm pretty sure of the truth here. I guess if you want physical proof, exhibit A will be raised to the rafters in a few months down on South Beach. Plus I gotta get ready for year 3 of "healing" in Tinseltown. I say a call goes out to Dr. Phil by January when Kwame claims Odom stole his pot outta his locker
You are comparing two complete different guys.

Because Shaq didn't get in shape, get healthy, hustle, etc. It is foolish to think he would work as hard as he did in LA as he did in Miami.

Apples and oranges. Can't compare a guy who gave it his all versus a guy who didn't and expect the same result.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:50 AM   #17
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Why would I care what the Heat did AFTER they got Shaq? I'm just talking about what the Lakers could have done if they kept Shaq and let Kobe go.

Everyone agrees keeping Phil over West was a bad move? Ummm....yea...so why did Buss (who you praise) hire Phil in the first place if it was against West's wishes? Makes no sense. My little story about West on draft day in '79 only illustrates his importance to the team. Who do you think West would have kept? Kobe? LOL...yeah, right.

The other stuff is just a matter of opinion by you. You say Shaq disrespected the organization. I say it was the other way around. Buss really isn't in the position to say someone disrespected him with his track record. Again, talking about Shaq being out of shape is laughable. Yea, he isn't the most motivated guy in the world but the Lakers had people on their staff that have motivated him...

West...Buss pissed on him
Riley...Buss pissed on him
Phil...Kobe fired him after Buss hired him against the wishes of West who then leaves but he fires him anyway? Talk about a passive-aggressive nutcase (Buss).

So what the hell was Shaq to do? And when the 3 guys I mentioned have 24 rings combined throughout their careers in various positions, I say you try to keep 'em around. Just a thought.

So you wanna say Kobe and Wade were more important than Shaq? Hmmm...fine. Then you keep Shaq, extend the contract, let the headcase walk and get another young star to fill in. Oh wait, you don't have any strings left to pull because you've got no one within your organization left who can bring people in. Your credibility is shot. Funny how the media and pro-Kobe/Buss people always brought up how the Lakers would be able to attract players right after Shaq left town. Where are they? Where is Yao? Where is Amare? Where is Marion? I'm waiting...

Hey, I'm not sayin' Shaq was innocent in all of this. I'm willing to overlook the fact that you keep bringin' up the contract extension when I BELIEVE Shaq pushed for that because he realized he had no one else to turn to and knew the relationship wasn't goin' to work anymore. Last resort type of deal. When you are dealing with people who don't honor seniority and respect what others have done for you...sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Keep bringin' up the apples and oranges too. All I know is when Jerry West or Pat Riley are officially involved in Shaq's career (or not as was the case in 02 and 03 when West was only a "consultant" which you must have forgotten...swept by the Jazz comment= wrong), a banner goes up.

The fact you said "keepin' Shaq means Kobe leaves" sums it up really. If you didn't know that they weren't gonna coexist at that point, you have other issues to deal with other than basketball. It usually works where you at least "semi-respect" a guy and he takes a paycut for you. Magic Johnson comes to mind. Oh wait, West convinced him of that and Buss told him to hit the bricks years ago because he didn't need him anymore. And Buss was right. Who needs Jerry West, Pat Riley, or Shaq right about now? You won 46 games last year. That's fantastic!
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:26 PM   #18
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Why would I care what the Heat did AFTER they got Shaq? I'm just talking about what the Lakers could have done if they kept Shaq and let Kobe go.
Which is?

Enlighten me.

What could they have done with Shaq, then signing an extension were he gets even more money, Walton, Payton, Rush, Cook, newly drafted Sasha, Devean George,

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Everyone agrees keeping Phil over West was a bad move? Ummm....yea...so why did Buss (who you praise) hire Phil in the first place if it was against West's wishes? Makes no sense. My little story about West on draft day in '79 only illustrates his importance to the team. Who do you think West would have kept? Kobe? LOL...yeah, right.
Funny.

Ever since West left, he has been praising Kobe. The 81 games, even when Kobe was a free agent, West said Kobe should be a Laker for life. My guess is that he would keep the guy who stayed in shape, worked hard, and respected the game.

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The other stuff is just a matter of opinion by you. You say Shaq disrespected the organization. I say it was the other way around. Buss really isn't in the position to say someone disrespected him with his track record. Again, talking about Shaq being out of shape is laughable. Yea, he isn't the most motivated guy in the world but the Lakers had people on their staff that have motivated him...
Riiiiight.

From Shaq's mouth, he said "The big dog won't guard the yard if he isn't fed."

"I got hurt on company time, I'll take time off company time."

And after Malone and Payton signed for half of what they were worth at the time, Shaq felt he needed to get an extension where he would get around 31 million when he is 38. Either way you cut it, it is HIS duty to honor HIS contract and make sure Buss felt he was worth it. It wasn't like they were winning championships those years. They weren't the elite team with Shaq as the leader.

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West...Buss pissed on him
Riley...Buss pissed on him
Phil...Kobe fired him after Buss hired him against the wishes of West who then leaves but he fires him anyway? Talk about a passive-aggressive nutcase (Buss).
Kobe didn't fire Phil.

Read Phil's book. Kobe said Phil being there won't matter to him, Phil didn't want to coach him.

So what the hell was Shaq to do? And when the 3 guys I mentioned have 24 rings combined throughout their careers in various positions, I say you try to keep 'em around. Just a thought.

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So you wanna say Kobe and Wade were more important than Shaq? Hmmm...fine.
Well based of logic that you said.

Dallas said let Wade beat us. Result? Heat victory.

Pistons said let Shaq beat us. Result? Piston victory. Not saying who was more important. Just based off what you said.

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Then you keep Shaq, extend the contract, let the headcase walk and get another young star to fill in. Oh wait, you don't have any strings left to pull because you've got no one within your organization left who can bring people in. Your credibility is shot. Funny how the media and pro-Kobe/Buss people always brought up how the Lakers would be able to attract players right after Shaq left town. Where are they? Where is Yao? Where is Amare? Where is Marion? I'm waiting...
Of course, Antonio Daniels practically begged to be a Laker. Banks wanted to be a Laker. Radmanovic took Laker's contract offer over Suns and Clippers, even Watson was thinking of being a Laker.

Again, why would Amare and Yao risk guranteed money?

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Hey, I'm not sayin' Shaq was innocent in all of this. I'm willing to overlook the fact that you keep bringin' up the contract extension when I BELIEVE Shaq pushed for that because he realized he had no one else to turn to and knew the relationship wasn't goin' to work anymore. Last resort type of deal. When you are dealing with people who don't honor seniority and respect what others have done for you...sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Shaq was offered a three year deal. He wanted five.

And given that

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Keep bringin' up the apples and oranges too. All I know is when Jerry West or Pat Riley are officially involved in Shaq's career (or not as was the case in 02 and 03 when West was only a "consultant" which you must have forgotten...swept by the Jazz comment= wrong), a banner goes up.
Yours saying that it takes two people to keep Shaq somewhat motivated.

Somehow, I don't want my franchise player to be lacking motivation.

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The fact you said "keepin' Shaq means Kobe leaves" sums it up really. If you didn't know that they weren't gonna coexist at that point, you have other issues to deal with other than basketball. It usually works where you at least "semi-respect" a guy and he takes a paycut for you.
Does Shaq not owe Payton and Malone who signed for free practically to try to win instead of demanding a five year extenstion, getting three, then complain?

I mean, how would you feel if the guy that recruited you and got you to sign for half of what you were worth then suddenly demanded more money for him? Like you said, semi respect.

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Magic Johnson comes to mind. Oh wait, West convinced him of that and Buss told him to hit the bricks years ago because he didn't need him anymore. And Buss was right. Who needs Jerry West, Pat Riley, or Shaq right about now? You won 46 games last year. That's fantastic!
I thought this was keeping Kobe over Shaq.

Why bring in two other hall of famer's to support keeping Shaq? I thought he was so worth it...

I mean, obviously, I'd keep three hall of famers over one. So I don't get your arguement of keeping Shaq.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:56 PM   #19
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Why do you keep bringing up what Miami did when they got Shaq? That is what they did with the guys they had in place. It has nothing to do with the Lakers. If Shaq stays in L.A. and Kobe leaves the Lakers obviously would have needed a SG. They are two different rosters. And besides, since Riley has full control in Miami (and I'm sure Miami is still making a profit despite paying Walker, J-Will, and Posey more than they are worth while Buss claimed he was poor) he was allowed to bring in who he wanted and he obviously knows what he is doing...they won.

I wouldn't put too much stock on West's PC stuff about Kobe. All these old-timers are so in love with the game they don't want to disrespect it...IN PUBLIC. Bill Russell and Bill Walton were sitting at a Blazers game last year and all I could think of was how much of a shame it is they have to sit and watch this garbage of today. I bring up Riley and West because they have won with high and low payrolls. They know how to get it done but Buss didn't need 'em anymore. He has Mitch, Kwame, and Kobe to put trust in...yea right. Plus you ignore the fact that Shaq LOVES West. He motivated him. This wouldn't be an issue if Jerry was there. And if it was, I WOULD HAVE SIDED WITH WEST. That's how reality works.

Your analysis of Shaq is laughable. You have the knowledge of the quotes and the history SOMEWHAT down, but you don't understand how to INTERPRET it. I can pull similar quotes and all kinds of bi*&*ing and moaning from guys like Magic and Bird over the years. Thing is, people were in place to know when to "feed them" and how to handle them. Magic walked in West's office in his...2nd year... (might be 1st) and said "I don't think this is gonna work out." Yea, so West told him to hit the road...uh huh.

LOL on Shaq, Malone, and Payton. I chalk this up to you not having the first clue on how things have traditionally worked in this league and well...esp. with the Lakers. You reward Shaq for his service. You give him what he wants or you promise him something after his career is over as not to blow up the cap. Buss did it with Magic...why not Shaq? Because Kobe sabatoged the whole damn thing and helped to warp the mind of Buss. And who cares about Payton and Malone? They have no rings (Payton does now) and were hired guns. You want in, you do it OUR way. You think McAdoo or Mychael Thompson had this mentality when they came in? If everyone thought like you Slinky, no one would get signed in this league. I understand the entitlement mindset is soooooo convenient in the world of today but a guy like Shaq was actually entitled to something for service. Yea, you can debate the lengths brass SHOULD have gone to in order to appease him, but in the real world...you make a promise to a guy who brought your franchise back from the grave. And no way IN HELL do you talk about the merits of the ringless and those who haven't served you before you get to Shaq...or even Kobe for Christ's sake.

And really...can you blame Shaq for his demands? Look at how Buss ran this team the last few years. He basically pisses off West to leave and gives Shaq little to no input into who to bring in. This was a constant problem during the 3peat. Hell, West basically had Jabbar and later Magic (to a lesser extent) make out lists of who they wanted in. But again, these guys don't have any place within the organization anymore. Buss, Kupcake, and the rest of clowns can handle the show...another uh huh.

Kobe didn't fire Phil? Yea...fair enough. Keeping Kobe automatically fired Phil. Not sure how you don't understand that. Tell me this Slinky: if you get rid of Shaq AND DON'T RESIGN Kobe AND allow Phil to stay AND make some executive decisions (just throwin' this out here), how many games do you think L.A. wins the past two years with Phil and those two contracts not on the books and other players filled in? My guess would be 5 to 10 more than they did. Not that it matters because only a ring does. The Lakers aren't winning and have no chance to for at least another 2 years...so why did the team get this mindset of rebuilding when that has NEVER been their way of doing business? Because THEY KNEW they f'd up this whole thing...franchise and all. Again, I'll wait around Slinky. I got a few years left. I'll just keep checkin' off the years as they go by with no title in L.A.

Walker, Daniels, Radmanovic...I'll just laugh this one off my friend. These are the Lakers. You're runnin' with the big boys now son. I'm talkin' Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq, McAdoo...you bring in guys with MVPs and too many awards to count. You're treating the Lakers like any other team in the NBA when you can't do that. I don't understand how people think this way...it's a common problem. These are the pretty boys. They got the money, talent, looks, and car to go with it. Now all of a sudden they can't get laid. I wonder why? This isn't about risking guaranteed money. If that was the case this would be like 1960 and everyone stayed with the team that drafted them forever.

The motivation thing with Shaq is another laugher. Yea he needs motivation, but when motivated he raises banners. Kobe can work his ass off all he wants. The fact is he just ain't good enough to win a ring as #1...PERIOD. Shaq has PROVEN he can coexist with another star and win. Kobe has yet to do so. You have to side with Shaq there when the proof is in the pudding.

Let's see...what else you got...Payton and Malone respect thing again...blah blah...people with rings and from within get respect first unless you're in the bizarro world. That about sums everything up.

Give me a few days on EXACTLY what the Lakers would have done after they lost the 04 Finals and the roster moves that should have been made. I have it somewhere here. Not sure they would have won a ring but they would have been better than the current Lakers plus they wouldn't have disrespected their older star for a guy with no proven ability to win on his own. People have taken notice of this team Slinky. These ain't your father's Lakers anymore. They are just another NBA squad in the eyes of everyone else now. And trading Shaq was the impetus of the whole damn thing.

Last edited by buckeyefan78; 07-28-2006 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:46 PM   #20
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Why do you keep bringing up what Miami did when they got Shaq? That is what they did with the guys they had in place. It has nothing to do with the Lakers. If Shaq stays in L.A. and Kobe leaves the Lakers obviously would have needed a SG. They are two different rosters. And besides, since Riley has full control in Miami (and I'm sure Miami is still making a profit despite paying Walker, J-Will, and Posey more than they are worth while Buss claimed he was poor) he was allowed to bring in who he wanted and he obviously knows what he is doing...they won.


Shaq stays in LA, Lakers have one legit starter in Shaq along with more scrubs than Kobe has with the MLE to use only.

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I wouldn't put too much stock on West's PC stuff about Kobe. All these old-timers are so in love with the game they don't want to disrespect it...IN PUBLIC. Bill Russell and Bill Walton were sitting at a Blazers game last year and all I could think of was how much of a shame it is they have to sit and watch this garbage of today. I bring up Riley and West because they have won with high and low payrolls.
Riiiight

What West said doesn't matter at all.

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They know how to get it done but Buss didn't need 'em anymore. He has Mitch, Kwame, and Kobe to put trust in...yea right. Plus you ignore the fact that Shaq LOVES West. He motivated him. This wouldn't be an issue if Jerry was there. And if it was, I WOULD HAVE SIDED WITH WEST. That's how reality works.
Shaq loves West, but he also loved Phil Jackson.

Now he loves Micky, Riley, loved Wade, loved Damon Jones.

Shaq has a lot of love for everyone, huh?

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Your analysis of Shaq is laughable. You have the knowledge of the quotes and the history SOMEWHAT down, but you don't understand how to INTERPRET it. I can pull similar quotes and all kinds of bi*&*ing and moaning from guys like Magic and Bird over the years. Thing is, people were in place to know when to "feed them" and how to handle them. Magic walked in West's office in his...2nd year... (might be 1st) and said "I don't think this is gonna work out." Yea, so West told him to hit the road...uh huh.
Of course.

Larry Bird was running stairs all day working on his game and staying in shape. Magic lead his team to a championship his rookie year, stayed in shape, worked on his game, etc.

None of them was whining about money, getting hurt on company time, and

LOL on Shaq, Malone, and Payton. I chalk this up to you not having the first clue on how things have traditionally worked in this league and well...esp. with the Lakers. You reward Shaq for his service. You give him what he wants or you promise him something after his career is over as not to blow up the cap. Buss did it with Magic...why not Shaq? Because Kobe sabatoged the whole damn thing and helped to warp the mind of Buss. And who cares about Payton and Malone? They have no rings (Payton does now) and were hired guns. You want in, you do it OUR way. You think McAdoo or Mychael Thompson had this mentality when they came in? If everyone thought like you Slinky, no one would get signed in this league. I understand the entitlement mindset is soooooo convenient in the world of today but a guy like Shaq was actually entitled to something for service. Yea, you can debate the lengths brass SHOULD have gone to in order to appease him, but in the real world...you make a promise to a guy who brought your franchise back from the grave. And no way IN HELL do you talk about the merits of the ringless and those who haven't served you before you get to Shaq...or even Kobe for Christ's sake.

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And really...can you blame Shaq for his demands? Look at how Buss ran this team the last few years. He basically pisses off West to leave and gives Shaq little to no input into who to bring in. This was a constant problem during the 3peat. Hell, West basically had Jabbar and later Magic (to a lesser extent) make out lists of who they wanted in. But again, these guys don't have any place within the organization anymore. Buss, Kupcake, and the rest of clowns can handle the show...another uh huh.
Wait a minute.

Magic has a job with the Lakers. Kareem is an assistant coach for the Lakers. Brian Shaw has a job with the Lakers, as does Kurt Rambis. Hell, Vlade Divac scouted for the Lakers after he retired a few years ago, even 4 month Laker Rudy T was a scout after a few years. Lakers offered a job to Rick Fox, etc.

Buss rewards people.

Just not people who hasn't done squat two years after they won and hope getting what he already had makes him want to play.

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Kobe didn't fire Phil? Yea...fair enough. Keeping Kobe automatically fired Phil. Not sure how you don't understand that. Tell me this Slinky: if you get rid of Shaq AND DON'T RESIGN Kobe AND allow Phil to stay AND make some executive decisions (just throwin' this out here), how many games do you think L.A. wins the past two years with Phil and those two contracts not on the books and other players filled in? My guess would be 5 to 10 more than they did. Not that it matters because only a ring does. The Lakers aren't winning and have no chance to for at least another 2 years...so why did the team get this mindset of rebuilding when that has NEVER been their way of doing business? Because THEY KNEW they f'd up this whole thing...franchise and all. Again, I'll wait around Slinky. I got a few years left. I'll just keep checkin' off the years as they go by with no title in L.A.
And this relates to why keeping Shaq...how?

I'm wondering how you would build a team around a broken down Shaq instead of Kobe. As this is what is about.

Not a series of whining about how Lakers should have kept West, should have done this and that to keep Shaq happy. Great, say that does happen. How would you build around Shaq, Payton, Walton, Cook, Rush, one late first round draft pick, Devean George, and the MLE?

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Now all of a sudden they can't get laid. I wonder why? This isn't about risking guaranteed money. If that was the case this would be like 1960 and everyone stayed with the team that drafted them forever.
Hmm.

Amare gets surgery on his knee and is out the year. Somehow, I think his agent isn't saying take 10 million for one year and see how it rides out. I'm think it is take guranteed money.

As for star players, Baron Davis practically begged to be a Laker as well. Buss didn't want

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The motivation thing with Shaq is another laugher. Yea he needs motivation, but when motivated he raises banners. Kobe can work his ass off all he wants. The fact is he just ain't good enough to win a ring as #1...PERIOD. Shaq has PROVEN he can coexist with another star and win. Kobe has yet to do so. You have to side with Shaq there when the proof is in the pudding.
Not even the same.

Shaq is playing with a former AllStar, a present AllStar, two former DPOY, two role players in Jason Williams and James Posey that are actually somewhat talented.

Kobe has Odom. Somehow, I think if Kobe was playing with AllStars and DPOY's, he'd win as well.

As for coexisting, Shaq gets one out of four. Kobe, Penny, Eddie Jones, and he gets along with Wade in the twilight of his own career.

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Let's see...what else you got...Payton and Malone respect thing again...blah blah...people with rings and from within get respect first unless you're in the bizarro world. That about sums everything up.
Exactly.

The Spurs were idiots to not sign Stephen Jackson. After all, he had rings.

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Give me a few days on EXACTLY what the Lakers would have done after they lost the 04 Finals and the roster moves that should have been made. I have it somewhere here. Not sure they would have won a ring but they would have been better than the current Lakers plus they wouldn't have disrespected their older star for a guy with no proven ability to win on his own.
Older star.

You got it.

A guy that is barely All NBA First Team should get the contract because of what he did before.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:18 PM   #21
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I hate to jump in the middle of this pissing contest between the two of you, but I have to ask buckeye a couple of questions (one of which is actually the same question Shawn had initially asked, as well):



At the end of the 2003-2004 season, if Jerry Buss had elected not to resign Kobe Bryant and instead decided to keep Shaquille O'Neal with the organization, what would the Los Angeles Lakers have done over the course of the last two seasons? Do you think they would have been better than they have been since Shaq's departure? Why?
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Old 07-28-2006, 06:54 PM   #22
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Your problem here Slinky is you don't understand how the league works based on reputations and connections. I've been told before in here that this is not politically correct to talk about and people get offended by this, but this is what it boils down to. Sorry. Ignore me. Report it. Whatever.

Do you understand that Riley got Shaq to take a $7 million paycut? Do you understand that despite being "disrespected" by Shaq in L.A. Payton came to Miami for $1.10? Do you understand that Shaq only got in shape THIS YEAR when Riley became coach and not for Stan Van Loser? Do you understand that Heat also went WELL OVER the cap this year to achieve success? Do you understand the Heat had a cap salary of $63.7 million while the Lakers had one of $79.3 million because this past season because L.A. traded away a guy already under a huge contract instead of letting a free agent go?

My guess would be NO to all of the above. Instead of paying too much for ONE guy (if paying Shaq his 04 salary of $27 was too much), you overpaid several men (Kwame, Grant, Odom, Kobe, and Medvedenko) to make up the difference either in the trade or to fill holes in the new roster. How does that make any sense?

On West...

Blah blah. Who cares? He isn't involved anyway.

On Buss rewarding people...

Again you don't understand how things work. Buss had a history of paying the product on the floor instead of in the front office. He broke this tradition when he signed Phil for $30some million or whatever it was while he refused to allow West partial ownership. Now despite this tradition, he did have a few people he felt were underpaid and rewarded them later. Magic was one of them. Johnson was the 4th or 5th highest paid player in the league in 91. I know... he hadn't won a title since 88 so that is fair...LOL. Yea, right. I'd love to work for you Slinky. Please tell me you don't own a business or else I'd fear your employees would hunt you down in the middle of the night.

Buss took care of Magic later. What you don't understand is that Shaq FORCED the hand of Buss to pay him now or make a promise later because we all knew the Kobe-Shaq relationship was about to crumble. Mr. Bryant had the luxury of simply asking for a max deal AFTER O'Neal already had his bags packed for Miami. I understand greed can't show up "officially" in what Bryant did now, but if you honestly believe he's not going to be a contract problem sometime in the future...you're foolish. Not even a personal knock against Kobe... all these guys are nutcases when it comes to this.

And that's where I get back to connections and reputations. Once Buss showed he was in love with Kobe and shipped Shaq off, the league took notice. THAT is a team where the star runs the show. THAT is a team that doesn't respect elders. THAT is a team that isn't run correctly. And that's why you don't understand any of this when I talked about what the team would have done if they kept Shaq and Phil over Kobe. Shaq and Phil have RESPECT in this league. They can bring people in, get things done, and would have maintained the Lakers IMAGE of a franchise that doesn't lower itself to rebuilding.

Did you even watch The Finals? Do you understand that Payton came back for Riley and Shaq? Do you understand the responsibility Riley felt towards Zo? Do you understand that Riley had to play shrink with J-Will and Walker to get them to buy in? I swear...you guys think this is just all so easy. And every year the same people in this league win...I wonder why? Because it ain't easy doing this. That's the part of the game you don't understand.

Moving on...

Baron Davis...ok. Umm...what year was that? What you fail to understand is that Buss has no clue how to run a team. Do you know how many people have wanted to play for the Lakers over the years and West didn't bite? Jason Kidd is probably the biggest name before West left. I know...championships grow on trees. The Lakers will win one...yea right.

On coexisting...

If you bring up Penny Hardaway or Eddie Jones in this conversation again I'm not only NOT responding, but going for an intervention on your behalf Slinky. Please...let's keep this nice and tight to legends and greats. I need a resume of multiple rings and clout...not losers. Make no mistake: Shaq made D-Wade a great. And before I hear the stats and the bullcrap on how Wade is vastly superior to Shaq at his position and within the league, you HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT NOT ANY OLD JOE CAN TEACH WINNING AND WHAT IT TAKES IN THIS LEAGUE TO DO THINGS RIGHT. Again, see Riley's connection with his squad and the maturation process within Shaq (yes O'Neal learned from Riley too...that's how reality works...young learn from old). Wade will get his day to be the old dog. Now he is the student. If he plays his cards right (unlike Mr. Bryant), he can mature and grow and go through experiences with Riley and Shaq and then assume that role himself one day. This has been done by a few players named Magic, Bird, and Russell. And they had their growing pains but I think they turned out "ok." I understand the sentiment of the young and in today's culture is "give me mine now" but part of "getting yours" is opening up your eyes and shutting your mouth.

Keep bringin' up that Miami roster. What you don't realize is that everytime you do so you only prop up the greatness of Riley...an employee Buss didn't need anymore.

Stephen Jackson comment: just another example of you not understanding who has say and who gets respect within an organization. Who is Karl Malone? Some ringless choker. He's no Laker. Again, the culture of the Lakers dictates YOU belong to US.

And again, give me a little time on the roster breakdown after the 04 Finals. I'll tell you what would have happened. I can tell you off the top of my head you're way off on Payton being there (he was a FA and hated Phil) but we'll get there.

The thing that cracks me up in all of this is how you take what people say so LITERAL. Being great in this league requires someone to be a shrink most of the time. That's why guys like Phil and Riley know what to say and when to say it.

toby...

Hopefully some of this clears things up. Like I said, I'm going to go through the roster for you guys starting as soon as Game 5 of the 04 Finals was over to show what should have been done. I can already see one problem in your question though: you too don't understand the image over results aspect of building a championship team...but we'll get to that.
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Old 07-29-2006, 01:24 AM   #23
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You keep this up, Buck, next post'll have to stop at the Weigh Station..

I'll let ya handle the volume & do all the dirty work before I throw anything in...

Good work....
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Old 07-29-2006, 02:10 AM   #24
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The hardest part of it all Tark is the literal interpretation and the love-o-stats situation that the young guys don't understand how to judge. Dictating the health of a team in anything less than title contention is for losers...especially in L.A. Title contention doesn't necessarily mean where you are in the standings at a given point in time. They want me to judge the Lakers in Wins and Losses with Shaq only and with Kobe only. No clue of the role of perception or tradition. I'll get to the breakdown of rosters but I can probably tell you NEITHER squad would have won the title...but somehow that will go over heads.

I've got Slinky bringing up Shaq's demands over and over again when it CLEARLY wasn't about money. He took $7 million less in Miami and for doing so had the pleasure of Riley ripping him a new you-know-what this season about his weight...every freakin' day! Dare I say people sometimes need and WANT to be shown how to WORK for their greatness by those who have done so before them. I know...that last line was Japanese for most.

This is like school sh** in here. If I don't tell 'em specifically what to say/do they try to put the blame on ME. Jesus Christ...we haven't even talked about Kobe's role or his own faults on and off the court yet. That would require their guy to take ACCOUNTABILITY and look at what he was ENTITLED to in comparsion with Shaq. The two most evil words in the world.

At least when I do this in one month I'll be getting paid for it. There I tell 'em to hit the road or I'll throw 'em out a window. Hopefully this thread will get closed before that. I need the rest.
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78
I can already see one problem in your question though: you too don't understand the image over results aspect of building a championship team...but we'll get to that.
I am curious as to what part of my question indicated to you that I don't understand the image over results aspect of building a championship team.

All I have asked is what kinds of moves do you think the Lakers would have made over the last two years had they decided to keep Shaquille O'Neal instead of Kobe Bryant, and whether you feel they would have been a better or more competitive team than they have been the last two years because of that decision?

But I will wait for your breakdown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78
They want me to judge the Lakers in Wins and Losses with Shaq only and with Kobe only. No clue of the role of perception or tradition. I'll get to the breakdown of rosters but I can probably tell you NEITHER squad would have won the title...but somehow that will go over heads.
I don't necessarily want you to judge what the Lakers would have accomplished with Shaquille O'Neal in place of Kobe Bryant solely on wins and losses.

I understand that you feel by keeping Shaquille O'Neal that the Lakers might not have been a championship caliber team over the last two years, but the organization would have been perceived better by free agent talent who might be more willing to play alongside a proven winner and big-man in O'Neal than Kobe Bryant (and correct me if I am wrong).

But even if the Lakers had kept O'Neal and lost Bryant, I still don't believe that after two years that any of us would have been able to say one way or the other that "the circle is complete: trading Shaq (or keeping Shaq) was the wrong thing to do."

You said "it can officially be said trading Shaq and keeping Kobe was a mistake for the Lakers," yet I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where you have pointed out why the Lakers two years later would have been much better off had they not traded Shaq.

So please refrain from your long-winded rants on how you need to educate all of the senseless young kids on these boards, and instead enlighten us as to why you started this thread and can officially say "the circle is complete."
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Old 07-29-2006, 02:48 PM   #26
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I thought it was a business and not the boy scouts?

Loyalty and that crap. Blah!

Like you said, rings get respect. And Shaq didn't deliver. I don't see why you need the defend a 30 year old man getting paid 27 million when you feel he is "disrespected".

I mean, great, he took 7 million less for Riley. Awesome. He must have realized he wasn't worth the 32 million he wanted when he was 38. Which he demanded with the Lakers. Now, you say connections. Lakers had Phil, Kobe, and such get Vladamir Radmanovic over the Suns and the Clippers. But then again, you'll say "he isn't a star" and that bull.

The point I am making is that from 2001-2003, Shaq stopped working out. He stopped coming out to help on the perimeter. He started demanding more money. And he didn't produce. I don't give a flying crap about what happened in 1998 or whatever when who did what.

Shaq didn't live up his 27 million contract by delivering a championship. And then demanded a longer one.

Lakers kept Kobe, Shaq got pissed and motivated. Why do you think Shaq lost weight even when Van Gundy was a coach?

As for the Lakers with Shaq and without Kobe, they have very limited cap space, and very limited trade value. Shaq wouldn't settle for 20 million like he would for your beloved Riley, and most likely would have wanted more. Essentially, it is Payton, Rush, Walton, a hobbling Malone was a maybe, Cook, rookie Sasha, and Shaq along with the MLE and maybe another signing.

With Kobe, they had Grant who might have had trade value with a expiring 15 million, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, and the MLE. That is a far easier team to build around than a broken down Shaq.

Had the Lakers kept West, kept Riley from the stone ages, kept all the guys who you are announcing your love for, then yes, keeping Shaq over Kobe might have been good. Why? More talent around Shaq. But they didn't.

Quote:
. I can tell you off the top of my head you're way off on Payton being there (he was a FA and hated Phil) but we'll get there.
Actually, Payton had a player option. Which he exercised. Because that was the most money he would get. At that point, he was worth around the LLE, maybe half the MLE.

He would get payed the full MLE.
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:25 AM   #27
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I give up.
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:51 AM   #28
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

To quote Alvin Lee & Ten Years after:

"I'd love to change the world...but I don't know what to do....."
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkus
:lol: :lol: :lol:

To quote Alvin Lee & Ten Years after:

"I'd love to change the world...but I don't know what to do....."
:lol:

To quote my wife throughout our marriage...

" You're (buckeyefan78) about a few weeks away from being the guy on the street corner screaming obscenities and I'm on your health plan so knock it off."

:lol:
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:28 AM   #30
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sounds like your wife has a great sense of humor but then again, she's still your wife so that goes without sayin'...

Mine apparently must be harboring a secret desire to be in the mental health field for her to still be around me...
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