Bonds’ Stock Falling: Was Barry Ever “Best”?

HR, RBI, and BA? Please, get back into your time machine and return to the present.

John:

If you’re not driving in runners, you’re not the most valuable- in any era. And if Bonds could steal bases, would pitchers be awarding him first base?

Bijan:

What if they never pitched to Bonds with runners on, but he hit 100 hrs; or 110. He would not be anywhere near the rbi leaders, but he would have 350-400 bb and an insane obp (.700, .800?) Oh, yeah …and 100 hrs!!! mvp going away… I don’t remember Mays stealing very many bases at age 40; and Mantle wasn’t even playing at that age. Bonds is the only member of the 500/500 club! Nobody else ever got to 400/400, and nobody playing today has a realistic shot at 500/500. Lots of people say Ruth will always be the best because he did things no one else had ever done. Many of the same people say Bonds must be a cheater because he is doing things that no one else has ever done. Strange, no?

My point is that if you aren’t the best runproducer, fielder, or baserunner of your era, you can’t be mentioned in the same breath as Mays. The fact that pitchers choose to walk him, not Pujols or A-Rod, is their strategy. If he could hurt you on the basepaths, he wouldnt get walked (if Shaq could shoot FT’s, no one would resort to the Hack-a-Shaq).

First, let me say that Mays is still my all-time favorite player. Now, let’s see…
Run production = RBI + R - HR
Mays-10,881 AB; 3,305 runs produced
Bonds-9,098 AB; 3,210 runs produced
Bonds probably won’t reach 10,000 AB, let alone 10,881, but he’ll likely “produce” another 95 runs by the end of July.
Edge, Bonds

Also, Bonds has won 8 GG awards so I think he must be a better fielder than most of his peers. If those awards mean nothing , then the 12 won by Mays are equally unimportant. So let’s look at fielding %
Mays-.981; Bonds-.984… Yes, CF is a much tougher position to play than LF, and Mays handled many more chances.
Edge, Mays

On to baserunning (steals)
Mays- 338 of 441 for .766
Bonds-506 of 647 for .782
As for taking the extra base, I think Bonds did that about as well as Mays at similar ages.
Edge, Bonds

I believe most will agree that a player is more valuable on base than in the dugout. Following are the top 10 OBP for Mays and Bonds.
Mays Bonds
.384 .426
.390 .431
.393 .446
.398 .456
.400 .458
.402 .461
.407 .515
.411 .529
.419 .582
.425 .609
I think you’ll notice that Bonds’ lowest is a point higher than Mays’ highest. Not only has Mays failed to reach base anywhere near as often as Bonds, but he also grounded into 251 DP to Bonds’ 143. That means he erased an extra 108 runners who might otherwise have scored.
As I said, Mays is my favorite, but I don’t feel the need to mention his name and that of Bonds in separate breaths.

The relative merits of Mays and Bonds cannot be reduced to mere numbers. When Bonds was a Pirate, Andy Van Slyke, not he, possessed the best arm in their outfield. Mays was always considered, by consensus, the premier five-tool player in the game from 1954-1966. Bonds was always paired in an argument with others, Griffey, Jr., A-Rod, etc. One cannot be the second best fielder in his own outfield, or the fifth best run producer in his own league (sometimes, playing with Kent, second on his own team) and be a Mays of one’s own era. Mays was rated above Aaron, Clemente, and Frank Robinson (as well as A.L. players such as Mantle). And what of baseball IQ?

I agree that numbers don’t tell the whole story, but you did sprinkle them generously throughout your initial posting. I must diagree, however, with your implication that the guy with the strongest throwing arm is the superior outfielder. Numbers, and to a lesser degree public sentiment, do determine the winners of the following awards.
MVP-Bonds has 7; shoulda been 8 (1991); woulda been 9 (1994); coulda been 10 (2000)
Gold Glove-Bonds has 8
Silver Slugger-Bonds has 12…In Bonds’ 19 year career, of a possible 57, he has won these awards a total of 27 times! I think one can safely assume that Bonds never got any votes for his sunny disposition. So hasn’t he been considered , grudgingly I suppose, the best player of his era, at least in the NL? Last season, in the 8 offensive categories, Bonds finished 1st in 5, and 2nd, 4th and 17th in the others. For the stats in which he led, I would pay particular attention to the gap between himself and the guys who finished 2nd.
BA-.362; 2nd-.347
OBP-.609; 2nd-.469
SLG-.812; 2nd-.657
OPS-1.422; 2nd-1.088
BB-232; 2nd-127
If that is not domination of ones contemporaries, I don’t know what would qualify as such. By the way, can you think of another slugger of recent vintage who had more HR (45) than SO (41)?

Bijan: You’re an idiot! Get some baseball understanding, will ya?

Bonds - 3 MVPs in the ’90s.

Chris:

Bonds has also won four straight MVP’s in the 2000’s. The first year, 2001, Sosa hit .328 with 64 homers and 160 RBI. Sosa should have won the awards hands down. In 2003 Pujols drove in 34 more runs than Bonds, and batted 18 percentage points higher. Pujols should have taken home teh trophy (Bonds had 90 RBI that season- the object of the game is to score more runs than the opposition). In 2004, the Cardinal star outhomered Bonds, and plated 22 more runners. Back in ‘90, Sandberg hit 40 homers at 2b, and posted a superior average to Bonds- Bonds won the MVP.

BCB

Reading this article raises a question - Does Bijan C. Bayne even watch baseball?

He implies that Bonds is not a five-tool player by using the argument that pitchers aren’t afraid to walk Bonds. Yet Bonds has stolen 506 bases. Mays swiped 338 and Mantle 153. Thus Mays and Mantle COMBINED did not steal as many bases as has Bonds.

He tries to make the argument that Bonds was not as dominant in his era as was Mays in his. Yet Bonds has won 7 MVPs and Mays won only 2. Thus this pitiful argument depends upon Bonds’ somehow “stealing” several MVP awards.

He makes a case that steals and fielding matter in the argument, but then compares Bonds against Manny Ramirez without taking either of these two factors into account. Of course he also does not take into account that Ramirez had better hitters both in front and behind him in the order, thus setting him up to get more RBIs.

He wades in with the argument that Bonds is not a superior run producer. Yet Bonds leads all active players in both runs and RBIs.

Bayne also fails to mention Bonds’ OPS numbers, which many regard as the single most significant indicator of offensive production. Bonds has led his league 9 times in OPS, finished 2nd twice more, and 3rd another three times. Indeed, since 1989, Bonds has finished lower than 3rd only one time and that was in 1999 when he didn’t have enough plate appearances to qualify.

I like Dwayne’s observation on Bonds’ awards.

Let’s consider that OPS is our measuring stick for offense and Golden Gloves is a representation of one’s defensive ability.

# of times that Bonds has led league in OPS added to GG awards: 17

# of times that Sosa & Pujols have led league in OPS added to GG awards won: 0

Now let us add in MVP awards.

Bonds OPS, GG, MVPs: 24
Sosa plus Pujols OPS, GG, MVPs: 1

Dana stole a little of my thunder but here I go.Bijan, baserunning stats are conspicuosly absent from your arguments for the “Anybody But Bonds” award. could that be because Sandberg had only 25 SB in 1990 to Bonds’ 52? Or that Sosa was 0 For 2 in 2001 to Bonds’ 13? Before you say that 13 SB is not so great, know this: that is Pujols’ career total! 13 SB in 4 full seasons!
Back to Sandberg…Yes, he did outhomer Bonds 40 to 33 with a higher BA, .306 to .301. You neglect to mention that he also had 96 more AB, 615 to 519. In short, Sandberg HR per 15.375 AB; Bonds HR per 15.727 AB. Aren’t numbers amazing? And what of your all-important run production? Sandberg produced 176 runs, Bonds 185. OBP? .406 to .354, Bonds SLG? .565 to .559, Bonds Don’t forget SB.
Sosa blew away Bonds in run production 242 to 193, but needed 101 more AB. Both had BA of .328. Sosa also had 153 SO, which wouldn’t help manufacture runs as much as, say, 177 BB (record, since broken by you know who). SLG .863 (record). HR 73 (record). I’m starting to sound like a broken record. (Clever, no?) OBP .515 to .437, Bonds.
Pujols’ run production in 2003 & 2004 was 218 & 210; Bonds’ was 156 & 185. However, you once again sought to point out the numbers that help your argument while ignoring those that don’t. You mentioned that Pujols’ BA was 18 points higher in 2003. Why not also mention that Bonds’ was 31 points higher in 2004? Also, shouldn’t we know that Pujols had 201 & 219 more AB those 2 years? OBP Pujols .439 & .415; Bonds .529 & .609 (Best Ever!) SLG Pujols .667 & .657; Bonds .749 & .812. Don’t forget SB. I’m only 13 behind Pujols, and I never played in the majors.

None of your comments have addressed the points I have made in favor of those I rank ahead of Bonds- they plate far more runners in their best seasons than he in his. If your team is not outscoring the opposition, all the walks, OPS, and OBP are for naught. How often are runs walked in? Ramirez, A-Rod and Pujols hit doubles (and a lot more singles than Bonds), which drive baserunners across- even advance them into scoring position. Seasons of 101, 90, 110, 106 AND 83 RBI just don’t jump out at me like the cluster of Griffey, Jr. and A-Rod’s better years, and they pale in comparison to what both Manny and Frank Thomas have done. OPB is a SABRmetric arbiter of talent that doesn’t translate into W’s.

BCB

None of your comments have addressed the points I have made in favor of those I rank ahead of Bonds- they plate far more runners in their best seasons than he in his. If your team is not outscoring the opposition, all the walks, OPS, and OBP are for naught. How often are runs walked in? Ramirez, A-Rod and Pujols hit doubles (and a lot more singles than Bonds), which drive baserunners across- even advance them into scoring position. Seasons of 101, 90, 110, 106 AND 83 RBI just don’t jump out at me like the cluster of Griffey, Jr. and A-Rod’s better years, and they pale in comparison to what both Manny and Frank Thomas have done. OPS is a SABRmetric arbiter of talent that doesn’t translate into W’s.

BCB

Guys, a player whose last several seasons have only produced 20 doubles (1999), then totals of 28, 32, 31, 22, and 27, doesn’t strike me as the best all-around hitter (or five-tooler) of his era. Manny Ramirez, who will never be mistaken for an Olympic sprinter, averages 40 two-baggers per 162 games. I see the ESPN studio guys have sold plenty of fans on the Bonds digits. Pujols’ career 162-game clip is 49 doubles (he’s no speed demon either). I mean c’mon. 20?

BCB

Bijan, you can’t expect to be taken seriously if you keep changing the criteria for greatness. So, now it’s doubles? The great Mays has 523, Bonds has 563 in almost 1,800 fewer AB. BB don’t often force in runs, but they do push other runners into scoring position and extend innings and allow the recipient a chance to score. C’mon, indeed.

And furthermore, if one’s efforts must result in victory to be considered “best”, ponder this: In 1976, Bob Horner went 4 for 5, with 4 HR, 6 RBI and 4 R. His Braves lost to the Expos 11-8 and no Expo had more than 1 HR or 3 RBI. Who was the MVP of that game?

Dwayne:

The criteria for greatness, when one is mentioned in the ‘same breath’ as players such as Williams, Aaron, and Mays is all-around batting prowess. All the premier extra-base hitters are strong in the “doubles” category. It isn’t a matter of “changing…criteria”, I’m just poking yet another hole in the myth. 49 doubles a year is quite a feat, and Pujols was one of the players I cited in my orginal comparison.

Bijan:

According to you, ‘All the premier extra-base hitters are strong in the “doubles” category.’ First, extra-base hitters!? I believe POWERHITTERS is the word you should have used; accept that you are again trying to phrase things to suit your fiendish plan. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. In the history of MLB, there are 17 players with more doubles than Bonds’ 563. Mays, 523, is not one of them. Nor is Williams, 525. Nor Gehrig, 534. Robinson, 528. Ruth, 506. Jackson, 463. Foxx, 458. Mantle, 344. Sosa, 340. McGwire, 252. I guess these guys are not ” premier extra-base hitters.” Whoda thunk it?

Pssst… Hey, Bijan

Maybe triples are the true measure of greatness. Bonds only has 77 of them. Perhaps you can use that for your next myth-puncturing expedition. Good luck!

Dwayne, last time I checked, both Williams and Mays served during the Korean War (with Teddy Ballgame also having pulled a stint during WW II). When one considers that, their lifetime doubles totals compare well with Bonds’. No one one this comment board has addressed my single-season challenges to Bonds’ paucity of doubles, RBI, or the MVP year comparisons I made with those he outpolled. Do you think, as many announcers and sportswriters do, that Barry Bonds is the premier all-around player in the history of the game?

BCB

BTW- I don’t consider hitting triples a mark of greatness, as many power hitters are too slow to collect many, and even speedsters often finish in single digits each year. Deion once totaled 14 while dividing his time with the NFL, and Brock didn’t post as many as one might expect. The triple is acknowledged to be the toughest hit in baseball. Many a potential “cycle” went wanting for lack of a triple.

BCB

Bijan’ last time I checked, Mays still had almost 1,800 more AB than Bonds, and neither he nor Williams was injured in combat. Tell me, exactly, how Mays’ total compares well to Bonds’…
Mays-10,881 AB, 523 Doubles
Bonds-9,098 AB, 563 Doubles
Do the math! of course it’s likely that Mays would have had more doubles if he had not served but its just as likely that Bonds will get more before he retires. But why don’t we keep this was about what various players have done, rather than about what we think they might have done under other circumstances. And what about the other 8 guys I mentioned? Do you not consider them great powerhitters? As for single-season doubles…who the hell cares how many doubles a guy gets? YOU made that an important stat, so I used it against you. Essentially, you’re implying that doubles are indicative of greatness from season to season, but career-wise, not so much. Pretty silly stuff. About the MVP year comparisons; you must have missed my rather extensive post yesterday, where I compared ALL the relevant stats for Bonds, Sandberg, Sosa and Pujols; not just the ones on which you would like to focus. Basically, I ripped you a new one. Check it out.
I put Bonds in the top 5, with Aaron, Cobb, Ruth and Williams, in no particular order. A couple more years like the last few, though, and he’s #1, IMO. As for Pujols, there’s no question his start has been phenomenal. But I suggest you revisit Bonds’ Stats over the same 4 year period… he’s been phenomenal-er.

I didn’t imply that Mays or Williams was injured while serving- but have you ever noticed that Williams didn’t collect 3,000 hits?

As for Mays, few who saw him play would rank Bonds above him (many SABR members would adjust Bonds’ stats for the power numbers of the post-‘97 era when the ball, for whatever reason people arrive at, began flying out of MLB parks at unprecedented rates- then they would rank the all-timers accordingly). For a few years (until, mysteriously, last year, when Thome, Pujols and Beltre paced everyone), a lot of people were hitting 45 dingers+. Mays hit 52 twice (11 years apart), long before the Boone-LuGo-Brady era. We’ll see where history, in retrospect, ranks messrs. Bonds and McGwire. Until then, for baserunning, fielding, throwing, baseball IQ, batting, and batting for pop, it’s Mays over anyone active today. Mays led the NL in triples three times, and in slugging five times, and had a season in which he had at least 20 hrs, triples, doubles and steals. He scored at least 101 runs each year from 1954 to 1965, played in 24 All-Star Games, won 12 consecutive Gold Gloves playing CF in an era during which Curt Flood also roamed center, (bear in mind the Gold Glove Award was not created until 1957), and amassed 3,283 hits despite missing most of 1952 and all of 1953. Mays also faced the likes of Spahn, Sain, Burdette, Drysdale, Short, Bunning, Koufax, Gibson, Veale, Carlton, Jenkins, Maloney and Newcombe during his career. And in 1971, at 40, he still led the NL in OBP and walks. For eight seasons between 1955 and 1964 he posted the best power/speed numbers in the NL (Bobby Bonds led the NL five times in P/S, Barry six). Incidentally, in this last stat, Bobby Bonds also led the AL three times, and once, in a season he played in both leagues, boasted the best total. Most impressively, he played in All-Star Games 18 years apart. He is still the player with the longest span between 50-homer campaigns.

BCB

Bijan, did you ever notice that Williams has 1,392 FEWER AB than Bonds. Hence, his doubles total is SUPERIOR to Bonds’. Mays has 1,783 MORE AB. Hence, his doubles total is INFERIOR. Since he wasn’t injured, it doesn’t matter if he served 10 years! He still was able to amass 1,783 MORE AB than Bonds! If Bonds produced MORE of a positive stat with FEWER opportunities, by definition he was BETTER at that particular endeavor.
BTW-Mays hit 51 HR in 1955 and 52 in 1965; and those occurred 10 years apart, not 11…unless 1955 and 1956 were 2 years apart. Small transgressions, but if we’re going to use numbers, let’s be accurate. Once again you seek to pick and choose which numbers are “important”. Why not just compare, for each stat, best season to best season and career to career? Don’t tell me a guy is better than Bonds because he has more HR after the 6th inning during night games in July.
Now for the funny part. Finally, you mention OBP and BB in a positive vein. But only to illustrate how impressive Mays remained in 1971, at age 40.—-OBP-.425, BB-112
It’s almost as though I never gave you Bonds’ numbers from 2004, when he turned 40.
OBP-.609 (record), BB-232 (record)…Shall I continue? Okay. OPS-.1.422 (record), SLG-.812, BA-.362, HR-45, RBI-101, R-129. Not too shabby for an old man, huh?

Uh, Dwayne:

Holding an MLB mark for most seasons between 50-homer years is not as trivial a stat as “..more HR after the 6th inning during night games in July…” Many baseball historians, players, and managers have called Mays the greatest player they ever saw. And the 1954 to 1965 deal was winning the MVP 11 years apart, I erred by recalling it as the 50-homer span. Both say a lot about Mays’ singular gifts. No one recalls any spectacular catches Bonds made- yet Willie played before “Sports Center”. How about throws?

The article, however, compares Bonds to his contemporaries. The all-time debate was an aside mentioned toward the beginning. I’m thinking of Alex Rodriguez’s strecth between 1998 and 2003 for example- homer totals such as 52, 57 and 47, RBI numbers the likes of 132, 135, 142, two 200-hit seasons, a 46 steals campaign. Or Junior, playing CF, stealing homers regularly, and posting 49 HRS and 140 RBI, 56 HR and 147 RBI , 56 and 146, 48 and 134, and 40 and 118 from ‘96-‘00. Leading the majors in walks in akin to leading the NBA in FT attempts- it doesn’t bear significance unless it translates to an advantage for one’s team during the season (i.e. FT made, or walks resulting in steals or runs scored or RBI). Of Mays, Clemente, or Aaron it was never said- “He’s a great player because he gets so many bases on balls. ????

Before 1999, I heard little talk among baseball scribes and announcers of annual walks leaders (as a matter of fact, Frank Thomas and Ted Williams were chided by the press for being “too selective”, even selfish by some). Bases on balls were only extolled in the context of their importance to leadoff hitters, as a way of setting the table for the heart of the order. Bonds IS the heart of the order. A walk in that situation can only advance a runner one base. That is why I emphasized doubles. Of what merit is Shaquille O’Neal’s propensity to draw fouls if he is not converting at the stripe.

BCB

Bijan..Bijan…Bijan

Here’s a simple test to see if you really brlieve the nonsense you’re exspousing, or if you just like to hear yourself talk/see yourself type.
1 Which is more impressive?
-a 2 MVP awards 11 years apart(Mays), or
-b 2 MVP awards 14 years apart, with 5 MORE sandwiched between?(Bonds)

2 Rodriguez, 1998-2003? Griffey, 1996-2000? Wouldn’t it be LESS biased, and therefore MORE meaningful to compare best season to best season or career to career or how about using 1994-2004; the years all 3 have competed?

3 Your BB/FT analogy is a bit skewed. a “free throw” is just that. No one is allowed to defend; your success or failure is entirely up to you. With a “free pass, the freedom ends with the pass. The opponent is now actively trying to prevent you from scoring. Often, your teammates unintentionally prevent you from scoring (strikeout, etc.) Thus, while a BB is often conducive to success, the recipient cannot be held accountable for ultimate failure. That said, of course you know that bonds is not a great player because he gets so many BB. He’s a great player who, in addition to all his other gaudy numbers, gets a ton of BB.

BTW- When Ruth held the single-season and career marks for BB, both certainly were considered to be impressive numbers. Perhaps you’ve heard of him…I don’t think he was a leadoff hitter.

D:

Ruth played 80 years ago. All his numbers were groundbreaking (i.e. slugging pct., homers, homers per-AB). Writers never marveled at his BB as an isolated stat, as with Wills or Brock and steals, or Henderson and leadoff homers. And the recipients of walks are accountable for “…ultimate failure…”. Once a players is awarded first, whether intentionally or not, his goal is to move into scoring position. Bonds is also accountable, batting where he does in the order, for driving in runners- Sosa, Griffey, Jr., Ramirez, A-Rod and Pujols all have him there. I mean, really Dwayne, 110, 90 and 101 these last three seaons? 83 in 1999 (Sosa posted 141). 101 RBI in ‘97 (Griffey had 50 more, and was the better fielder to boot). RBI have always been considered more crucial than walks (see Hunt, Ron, and Yost, Eddie).

BCB

You have failed the test, with flying colors.

Congrats.

As have you, thanks

BCB

What makes it fun defending Bonds is tha he hammers een the most trivial detractors.

You really want to hang onto this RBI or Double thing???

Let’s see, most RBI’s ever Aaron 2295, Willie Mays 1903 and we’ll do Sosa and Pujols for you also.

Pitchers that are good more often pitch to Bonds. Bad pitchers are simply overmatched, and avoid him, PLUS, all pitchers would rather walk him if men are on base and first is open….. But it doesn’t matter. The good pitchers, being careful and selective when…
have only managed this, compared to others

RBI’s per At Bat (exclude Bonds 4 leadoff years at beginning of career).

Bonds-Aaron-Mays—Sosa-Pujols
.288—-.238—.227—-.246-.229Best Season
.231—-.186—.175—-.191-.220Career

.203 if you are desperate and need his leadoff years..Pujols will probably end up around that figure, the rest couldn’t match it.

Doubles are your best hope of showing Bonds doesn’t dominate everybody pretty much..

I willinclude the two all-time leaders, Speaker at 795 and Rose at 746 plus Pujols

Bonds-Rose—Speaker-Pujols
.062—.531—.662—-.678

Bonds is right there with the greatet ever..and his final TOTALS for doubles and RBI’s will be among the handful of best ever..despite the incredible number of lost bats…

Your argument was squashed by all the others. I have tackled your last remaining shreds of a hopeless argument, by comparing Bonds in exactly the way you would like, in his only weak areas… with the greates all time leaders, your selected favorites from the past, and the best contemporaies you favor…and still BONDS is the king!!! Best to stick with his personality when TRYING to defame him..he has been the best player almost everyone of the last 12 years in the majors… and generally, for the past 15 years, since he was 25….he HAS DOMINATED everyone.

Junior or Pujols, these are the only two who might match him one day..can Junior start again? Junior does not get on-base enough…and Pujols has to far to go to say anything meaningful., yet. Their accomplishments would not in anyway defame Barry.

LETS NOW ARGUE BOTH SIDES OF THE BARRY ARGUMENT!!!!!!!!

When looking at the greatest hitters ever, the ones who dominated in the key overall stats, never mind many others, a few select names come up, and it is hard to choose among them.

These totals are for leading the league in Slugging, On Base Percentage, OPS and Adjusted OPS. Here is the list of the greatest hitters ever, with their respective times being the Leader, in the Top 3 selections, Top 5 selections and Top 10 selections. Note that many have comments that are relevant and indicate the total is less than it could have been. Their number of really high appearances is amazing, and shows their dominance of their era. The top 5 are clearly apat from the rest, but lots is debatable.

———1stTop3Top5 Top10
Ruth——48-58-62-63 3-4 yrs lost-pitch
Hornsby-41-50-52-56 Retired very young
Cobb——36-59-63-74 Ruth arrived
Williams-36-48-50-52 5 war years/<comp.
Bonds—-32-46-58-62 Active.Bad Stadiums

Musiel—-25-43-56-68
H Wagner-24-38-45-57
Mantle—-21-42-48-56 Hurt.Bad Stadium
Mays——18-35-52-59 WarStad.RobyAaron
Fox——-18-32-44-51 Retired very early
Gehrig—-13-40-47-48 Disease/Ruth

FRobinson-14-27-47-65 Aaron/Mays
Aaron——10-37-49-66 Mays/FRoby
Schmidt—-10-30-42-50

also from 19th century:
D Brouthers 28-41-44-48

This pretty much sums it all up. Bonds fits in very nicely in the upper echelon of the greatest hitters ever. All 15 of these were far ahead of their contemporaries when it came to dominating the league for several years …take your picks, you can make arguments for all these guys..they are multi MVP type fellows who had amazing accomplishments pretty much across the board for a real long time….

The 4 guys that did not win it twice are so great, their credentials are unquestioned.

Honus Wagner (No award when he played)
Ruth 1 time (1915-1922 and 1929 no award)
Aaron 1 time
Cobb 1 time ( early years and 1915-1922 no MVP award)

Thank you Craig.

“Thank you Craig”???

Craig, you’re the man! In my earlier posts, I think I pretty much destroyed Bijan’s silly arguments about Bonds vs. other greats, past and present. In return, I got more skewed, self-serving nonsense. You. however, have whipped him into submission, and for that I say “Thank you, Craig”!

Dwayne:

I thanked Craig as much for his decorum as his analysis. Pujols, A-Rod, and Griffey did post better totals than Bonds in the years noted- and Manny is a superior RBI man. More importantly, sports historians, whether at NASSH meetings, online, or at SABR luncheons, may disagree without being disagreeable. You could take a page from Craig’s proverbial book. And as a five-tool player, Barry, even in his heyday, was not the equal of # 24.

BCB

Ouch!

Bijan, if you take a look at my first 10 posts, I don’t think you’ll find anything disagreeable in my tenor. Maybe you didn’t care for my attempts at humor but, c’mon, I actually used the word “fiendish”. How disagreeable can that be? Besides, some might find disagreeable, the way you ignore seemingly valid points in the posts to which you respond. You choose, instead, to go off on tangents in an attempt to obfuscate the obvious. I simply don’t see how anyone can argue that RBIs are not largely dependent upon the success of the preceding batters and Rs on that of subsequent batters. Consequently, OBP and SLG are much more indicative of a hitter’s own ability. That’s my opinion, and Ted Williams shared it. I think we can agree to agree that he would know better than either of us.

Dwayne:

The only problem with your RBI-run case is that it penalizes Frank Thomas, Manny, Sosa, and Pujols for bringing home the runners who preceded them as batters (the old LOB stat). And I see runs as much a product of moving into scoring position, baserunning ability/awareness, and the proclivity to hit extra-base hits (i.e. doubles) in the first place as a product of depending on those who follow one in the order to drive one in. I wonder if The Splinter (or Bill James) would want to deny a batter accolades or awards because said batter brought runners in (the very definition of hitting “in the clutch”). It is one thing to have the opportunities to do so- another to do it. As for athletic debate in general, I prefer to keep it civil- whether the topic be Magic v. Oscar, Ali v. Tyson, or Emmitt/Barry (Sanders).

The only reason I brought more statistical categories into play is that you introduced new ones (not that I object to more areas being examined, but if we’re talking NBA and someone injects steals or three-point pct. into a debate, I might cite relatively low rebounding proficiency or ability to get to the line- depending on what position the player plays. After all, you’ve got your Walter Johnson camp, your Koufax aficions, the G. Maddux camp, and those who swear by Grove. Right?

BCB

Bijan:

I agree that RBI and R are very important stats, and those you mention should be lauded for their efforts. However, your comparisons imply that Bonds had fewer RBI because he didn’t bring home the guys on base as efficiently as the others. In reality, he simply didn’t get to swing nearly as often. As for R, Bonds is 4th, all-time, in extra-base hits. He’ll pass Ruth and Musial this season, and have a shot at Aaron next. He has more SB than all but one active player. Thus, I think his inability to score more runs can be blamed mostly on his supporting cast.

But let’s assume that RBI and R are equally as important as OBP, SLG and HR. In the first two categories, the players you mention have put up numbers that dwarf Bonds’ single-season best. However, in the latter three, Bonds has numbers unequaled by ANYONE in the history of MLB! Don’t you think that is more impressive to most people?

Finally, the following strikes me as noteworthy: Aaron’s best single-season RBI and R totals are 132 and 127, respectively. Bonds’ totals are 137 and 129. Career-wise, however, Aaron is 1st and 3rd in those categories, while Bonds is 12th and 6th. With another season like last, Bonds will be 5th and 3rd. I’d say he’s keeping pretty good company. Your thoughts, please?

He is in rare company in terms of career. My question is whether, from ‘94-‘99 he, not Griffey, Jr. or A-Rod, was the best active player, and from 2000-2004, whether he has been. I forwarded the argument because it is difficult to be the best (or among the top three) all-time at something one was never best at while active. Analogous to an Emmitt-Barry, Emmitt-Faulk, Emmitt- Le Dainian/Priest/Dillon/Curtis debate. Longevity vs. supremacy.

It was a staple argument when Aaron was active (was he the active best in ‘55-‘59, when Mays, Mantle, Musial and Ted were still going strong, or even when Roberto was king of RF, or toward the end). Aaron’s career spanned all of those above, but he never possessed Mickey’s clout, Ted or Roberto’s average, Mays’ or Mantle’s speed, or the OF ability of Kaline-Mays-Clemente. This is not to say 38 dingers a year over 22 seasons is chopped liver. It simply addresses the term “best”. BB is in super company.

BCB

Bijan:

IMO-for 1994-1999, Bonds was neck-and-neck with Griffey and a cut above Rodriguez. Here’s why:
Bonds-2833 AB, 223 HR, 620 RBI, 654 R, 153 SB, .298 BA, .438 OBP, .610 SLG
Griffey-3085 AB, 266 HR, 699 RBI, 639 R, 90 SB, .295 BA, .383 OBP, .612 SLG
Rodriguez-2572 AB, 148 HR, 563 RBI, 493 R, 118 SB, .307 BA, .362 OBP, .550 SLG
Keep in mind that Junior and A-Rod were teammates all six years and it’s much more difficult to pitch around TWO great players.

As for 2000-2004, Pujols has had a great start to his career. The last two years he has put up Barry-esque numbers. But this is the stretch when Bonds has broken several all-time records, and in some cases he’s re-broken those records. I have no problem mentioning Pujols in the same breath as Bonds; I just think he should be mentioned second.

I concur on all points. It would be great to hear media and announcers credit them all (there were some Williamesque digits in the bigs from ‘93-‘04, including the years The Hurt was batting .353, .349 and .347 with plenty BB’s, homers, and RBI. Thomas had 34 doubles, 109 walks and 101 RBI when the work stoppage began Aug. 11, 1994).

We’re agreed that Pujols must stand the test of wear and tear.

BCB

Most baseball experts agree that the most important stats are not average, runs scored and RBI, but are On Base Percentage, Sluggging Percentage and OPS (which is OBS+SP). Barry Bonds has other-worldly number for these stats; these stats show why he is one of the best baseball players of all time.

Matt:

While a member of SABR, I don’t agree with “…Most baseball experts…”. Since the object of the game is to score more runs than the opposition, and many teams are handicapped by poor pitching and/or average defense- the numbers of runs a player can score, or drive in, are the arbiters of batting success. Getting on base does me no good if the runner does not score. OPS is the flavor of the month, but we cannot fault Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle for being signed by teams in whose batting orders they were not destined to draw many walks.

BCB

Bijan:

One might argue that it does me no good to score a run, or three, or ten, if the other team scores more. Why should we praise the guys who score or drive in meaningless runs, while slighting those who provide many more scoring opportunities?

Dwayne:

True, but then we’d have to parse A-Rod, Manny, Sammy, Frank, Ballgame, and Willie’s RBI’s into game-winning RBI’s, their runs into runs producing leads, etc.

BCB

Bijan:

I think BA with men on base would be a telling stat. I’ve heard these numbers many times during games, but never seen them printed anywhere. Or, let’s go crazy…OPS with men on. Either would have to favor Bonds, since he gets relatively few chances to swing the bat. Last year,the top RBI guys had over 50% more ABs!

BTW-Twenty years ago, given enough ABs, (four or five thousand) I could have had 130+ RBIs, too. Maybe.