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Old 08-21-2008, 01:58 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
It's quite simple, follow the Department of Transportation's suggestions.

Drive less, walk when possible, keep cars tuned-up, inflate tires, those in large cities should take public transit more often, car-pool, etc...
You don't live in southern California.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:08 PM   #77
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Latest polls are showing McCain ahead by around 5 points now.

Agreeing to the Saddleback debate was a mistake by the Obama
campaign. His inexperience is starting to be made evident to the
general public.

Obama's also slipping to the mid-50's among what was his strongest
group: the 18-29 age group.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philabramoff View Post
You don't live in southern California.
I lived in Southern California and carpooled. I also took public transportation when I was at the beach...or walked.

Most folks are lazy. Next time you're at a beach Phil look at the windshields of the cars. You'll see people who paid to park at various beaches right next to each other (Heisler Park, Divers Cove, Crescent Bay in Orange especially)

Orange would be those Republican bastards though.

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Old 08-21-2008, 02:40 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
I lived in Southern California and carpooled. I also took public transportation when I was at the beach...or walked.

Most folks are lazy. Next time you're at a beach Phil look at the windshields of the cars. You'll see people who paid to park at various beaches right next to each other (Heisler Park, Divers Cove, Crescent Bay in Orange especially)

Orange would be those Republican bastards though.

I live 10 minutes away from my work. Most people live 30-40 minutes+.
If I walked to work, it would take me at least 45 minutes, and I'd be in
really bad shape by the time I got there, because I'm disabled.

The point is, gas prices have doubled in the past two years (i.e. when
Nancy Pelosi took over the Speakership). We need the damn oil, and it just
doesn't wash to hear Obama saying "walk to work" or "inflate your tires".
The Democratic Party is so in the stranglehold of the environmentalist
lobby that they would rather cripple the American economy and sell out
the lower class (whom they claim they live for) with what amounts to a
repressive tax on the poor.

Conservatives, like me and Cat, are not a bunch of polluters either. We
are concerned about cleaning up localized pollution. We would like to see
alternative fuels created. But, we are realistic. Our position is
that we can, and should, produce as much of our own oil as possible,
instead of buying it all at inflated prices from countries that want to kill
us, while we wait for those alternative fuels to come, if they even
exist.

Global warming is also a crock. It's been proven wrong by NOAA this year,
and it a harmful misdirection of our efforts.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:03 PM   #80
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I live 10 minutes away from my work. Most people live 30-40 minutes+.
If I walked to work, it would take me at least 45 minutes, and I'd be in
really bad shape by the time I got there, because I'm disabled.


No prolbem Phil. That's legit.

BUT...

Tell me about all the cars you see on the Santa Monica or Ventura with one person in the car. The carpool lanes are so much faster cuz nobody uses them that it's actually worth going to pick someone up near you and then driving to work...IF POSSIBLE. My wife did that when we lived out there.

The point is, gas prices have doubled in the past two years (i.e. when
Nancy Pelosi took over the Speakership)


I have no idea what this association is meant to imply.

We need the damn oil, and it just
doesn't wash to hear Obama saying "walk to work" or "inflate your tires".
The Democratic Party is so in the stranglehold of the environmentalist
lobby that they would rather cripple the American economy and sell out
the lower class (whom they claim they live for) with what amounts to a
repressive tax on the poor.


The economic system we have ( a mixed economy slanted toward capitalism if ya ask me) is antiquated and not viable for large segments of the population. Not sure how this is a newsflash but every industry (oil, food, education etc) is a repressive tax on the poor under capitalism because goods/services aren't infinite and distributed based on need.

The lower class...as you put it...was struggling long before gas went up now, six months ago, or 6 years ago...so I don't know what that has to do with anything. We probably have different views on where rich, middle and lower class begins though.

Conservatives, like me and Cat, are not a bunch of polluters either. We
are concerned about cleaning up localized pollution. We would like to see
alternative fuels created. But, we are realistic. Our position is
that we can, and should, produce as much of our own oil as possible,
instead of buying it all at inflated prices from countries that want to kill
us, while we wait for those alternative fuels to come, if they even
exist.


We buy everything from nations that want to kill us so why is oil so special? If you're sitting at your desk Phil, pick up 10 items around you and tell me how many of 'em were made in Asia (specifically China or India).

Capitalism dictates that profit is paramount over environment, physical health of all peoples and military security. If you have a problem with our trading/buying habits I'd be more than happy to lead the charge for a self-sufficient (or nearly) U.S. economy based on the following criteria...

1. We decide, AS A PEOPLE, what we value and produce said goods/services.
2. We don't import.

Works for nations (not as a whole but they come close and at least try) like Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc.

But then again...we all know what economic system that leans toward...



Global warming is also a crock. It's been proven wrong by NOAA this year,and it a harmful misdirection of our efforts.

I have no idea what global warming has to do with anything but if you're telling me that the MAINSTREAM Democratic Party in this nation that serves under the guise of protecting the environment is using it to promote political gains...I'd agree with you.

In any event, I don't believe in it and never have.

Last edited by buckeyefan78; 08-21-2008 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:30 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Tell me about all the cars you see on the Santa Monica or Ventura with one person in the car. The carpool lanes are so much faster cuz nobody uses them that it's actually worth going to pick someone up near you and then driving to work...IF POSSIBLE. My wife did that when we lived out there.
You have a valid point that people should carpool when they can, and that
many Californians are into that cosmopolitan idea of driving the cool looking
car with the top down (less so in Ventura County, where I live).

Still, so many people who don't live in California have no idea how spread
out this freakin' state is, and that commutes for many people are an hour+,
and the Cal economy is so crappy that you can't just find another job at
will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
The economic system we have ( a mixed economy slanted toward capitalism if ya ask me) is antiquated and not viable for large segments of the population. Not sure how this is a newsflash but every industry (oil, food, education etc) is a repressive tax on the poor under capitalism because goods/services aren't infinite and distributed based on need.
I'm a believer, as you know, in a well-regulated capitalism, that has
parameters for safety and workers rights (like the minimum wage). In this
way, the resources are distributed by need, because people naturally
go out and get what they need. The free market only requires that each
person contributes to that creation of resources, in order to be able to
have the medium (i.e. money) to purchase that need. The "well-regulated"
aspect of capitalism will provide for those unable to "contribute" as it were
(such as the disabled, elderly, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
We buy everything from nations that want to kill us so why is oil so special? If you're sitting at your desk Phil, pick up 10 items around you and tell me how many of 'em were made in Asia (specifically China or India).
I agree with you on this point. My wife has the cutest little doll that she
bought at an outlet store, and I was crest-fallen to see the "Made in China"
tag on the back. Here's what makes something like oil "special" though.
Our economy will collapse without the oil, so some of these aggressive
nations really do have us by the balls, to an extent. Our nation will not
collapse, though, if we stop importing rag dolls from China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Capitalism dictates that profit is paramount over environment, physical health of all peoples and military security. If you have a problem with our trading/buying habits I'd be more than happy to lead the charge for a self-sufficient (or nearly) U.S. economy based on the following criteria...

1. We decide, AS A PEOPLE, what we value and produce said goods/services.
2. We don't import.
Our capitalist market (well-regulated, of course), determines what we value
and need (which is why we are the world's producer of life-saving meds,
for instance). Again, we do have regulation against trashing the environment
(even though we could do a better job of it). We just need to be careful
not to go too far over to the other side, and screw the economy.

As for importing....international trade is something good. However, we need
to be doing a better job in terms of who we trade with, and what we are
trading.

LASTLY: I'm glad you don't buy "global warming" either. :clap:
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:43 PM   #82
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I'm a believer, as you know, in a well-regulated capitalism, that has
parameters for safety and workers rights (like the minimum wage). In this
way, the resources are distributed by need, because people naturally
go out and get what they need.


Problem here is that it isn't true. What about where people don't have access to goods and services essential to health/education/etc. Unless you don't value those things I suppose the inner cities are doing well.

I agree with you on this point. My wife has the cutest little doll that she
bought at an outlet store, and I was crest-fallen to see the "Made in China"
tag on the back. Here's what makes something like oil "special" though.
Our economy will collapse without the oil, so some of these aggressive
nations really do have us by the balls, to an extent. Our nation will not
collapse, though, if we stop importing rag dolls from China.


I strongly disagree. Our economy will collapse for those who currently own the wealth in the said monopoly. Don't expect me to cry over those folks who have held the monopoly in check all these years. Empowering any enemy nation by helping their economy grow is a direct threat on our national security. We import nearly all our steel from China too. Tell me, where do we get steel for military vehicles if we go to war with China? We buy it from them?



Our capitalist market (well-regulated, of course), determines what we value and need (which is why we are the world's producer of life-saving meds,
for instance).


We are the world's producers of life-saving meds cuz there is a financial gain in having the patent...PERIOD. While we produce the best meds, other nations (and you know where they are Phil...get out that map of northern Europe again ) live longer and provide better day-to-day care for their people.

Again, we do have regulation against trashing the environment
(even though we could do a better job of it). We just need to be careful
not to go too far over to the other side, and screw the economy


And this is where we'll never agree and I can never understand the angle. The environment is beyond our control and can't be replaced/fixed by current technologies for all our problems. The economy is a man-made issue and can be fixed/altered when we say so. The economy is the issue we can always change. Once the environment is screwed...many times we can't go back.

As for importing....international trade is something good. However, we need
to be doing a better job in terms of who we trade with, and what we are
trading.


No trading is necessary. I can't think of one product/good essential to running this nation that we don't already have/come up with an alternative where we need to empower any nation...friend or foe.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:02 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
Problem here is that it isn't true. What about where people don't have access to goods and services essential to health/education/etc. Unless you don't value those things I suppose the inner cities are doing well.
Now we're down to fundamental core differences that I don't believe could
ever be fleshed out on this thread, unless we stay here for weeks.
In short, I regard much of the poverty (but not all, of course) lies not in
having the "right economic system", but due to people who have bad values,
people making bad choices in their lives, or people being victimized by
their parents, friends, or others, making bad choices in their personal
lives. Much of it lies to a lack of education...or more accurately, people
refusing to take advantage of the education that would be there for
their taking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
We are the world's producers of life-saving meds cuz there is a financial gain in having the patent...PERIOD. While we produce the best meds, other nations (and you know where they are Phil...get out that map of northern Europe again ) live longer and provide better day-to-day care for their people.
Again, another fundamental, brass-tax, disagreement at the core. I regard
financial gain as, really, the best motivation to create something like a
life-saving med. Having a socialist government designating certain people
with the assignment of creating a life-saving med, and saying, "we won't
compensate you...just do it for the good of the community" is demonstrably
doomed to failure.

Moreover, Europe, and the rest of the world, depend on the US economy
to crank out these meds, and their health care systems piggy-back on all
the work that the US health care research juggernaut creates.

I'd also add that, according to the United States definition of "poverty",
which places us somewhere between 10-15%, about 60% of European
citizens "live in poverty".

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyefan78 View Post
No trading is necessary. I can't think of one product/good essential to running this nation that we don't already have/come up with an alternative where we need to empower any nation...friend or foe.
Maybe not "necessary", but what's wrong with trading with other
nations, things they want for things we want, to make our lives just
that much better? Just minimize our dealings with our enemy nations.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:05 PM   #84
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Ahhh Global Warming...

I love when non-scientists claim to know more about subjects than the experts...

I guess you know more than every major scientific organization in the world... All of which agree that we are influencing global warming.

Oh, even Newt Gingrich has acknowledged global warming.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:20 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
Ahhh Global Warming...

I love when non-scientists claim to know more about subjects than the experts...
I was agnostic on the issue for a long time, but only leery of the
possibility of bankrupting the US economy, because of fear of
"global warming".

However, I base my current position on the measurements published
by NOAA this past year that show that global warming isn't happening.
They released the findings of the deep-sea buoys that more accurately
measure the overall long-term temperature of the Earth, rather than
surface measurements that are subject to more short-term, localized,
and fatuous changes. They showed that the overall temperature of
the Earth has gone down about 0.6 degrees over the past 30
years.

Global warming isn't happening. It's just the most recent scare of this
decade, like "deforestation" was in the '90's, like "the ozone layer" was
in the '80's, and "global cooling" was in the '70's. In fact, the
environmentalist lobby is starting to recognize this as well, thus, their
more recent use of the term "climate change" instead of the hackneyed
"global warming" claim.

Be worried about "global warming" if you want to, CK. I'm not.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:23 PM   #86
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Quote:
Be worried about "global warming" if you want to, CK. I'm not.
That's fine. I'm sure you know more than every major scientific organization in the world.

You are pretty smart afterall.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:28 PM   #87
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That's fine. I'm sure you know more than every major scientific organization in the world.

You are pretty smart afterall.
It's a self-illusion, like time, although I don't think that people chose to see time the way they do.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:16 PM   #88
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Now we're down to fundamental core differences that I don't believe could
ever be fleshed out on this thread, unless we stay here for weeks.
In short, I regard much of the poverty (but not all, of course) lies not in
having the "right economic system", but due to people who have bad values,
people making bad choices in their lives, or people being victimized by
their parents, friends, or others, making bad choices in their personal
lives. Much of it lies to a lack of education...or more accurately, people
refusing to take advantage of the education that would be there for
their taking.


Failure to recognize the two-worlds reality (laid out in my other post) is going to do this to you Phil. I've come to the conclusion, in all my years of teaching poor and rich kids, that the economic/social class you come from is the one you end up in unless one has a SUBSTANTIALLY higher acumen in formal education or athletics. Education is a fraudalent entity used to foster the class divide. Higher education especially. You know that too Phil. You've admitted it on these boards. Well, the part about it being a scam that is. I don't know how you can't see the motive behind the scam but I guess one could believe it's being done for kicks.

Again, another fundamental, brass-tax, disagreement at the core. I regard
financial gain as, really, the best motivation to create something like a
life-saving med. Having a socialist government designating certain people
with the assignment of creating a life-saving med, and saying, "we won't
compensate you...just do it for the good of the community" is demonstrably
doomed to failure.


The problem with this theory is that it rarely bares fruit in reality...historical reality. Show me a great innovator in any discipline and I'll show you someone who fell in to one of these categories...

A. Was rich to begin with and did the innovation on his own time
B. Took a paycut
C. Went against the Church/State (mostly one entity throughout history)

Neither one of us is very bright Phil. That's why we teach. But if you believe that Einstein wouldn't have did his stuff or Copernicus wouldn't have dropped his knowledge on the world cuz they wouldn't have gotten credit for it in some way (either $ compensation or otherwise)...you really need to surround yourself with more intelligent/gifted people in your daily life. No offense, but considering folks like you and me are useless doesn't mean you can't marvel at young people who have gifts. My best advice: get the hell out of their way. That's what I do when I see 'em coming.

Socialist governments don't promote work fields for people anyway.

Moreover, Europe, and the rest of the world, depend on the US economy
to crank out these meds, and their health care systems piggy-back on all
the work that the US health care research juggernaut creates.


If you were a European nation and could take advantage of a system where your people live longer and have a better overall quality of life than the U.S. why would you not do so? Do you honestly believe that if the U.S. stopped producing the meds they wouldn't do their own research? Remember Phil, their moral outlook is for the health of the people...not money like us. Once the need arose for research they'd give it the old college try.

I'd also add that, according to the United States definition of "poverty",
which places us somewhere between 10-15%, about 60% of European
citizens "live in poverty".


One day (and you'll pay for the ticket since I know you're gonna be a millionare ) we'll take a plane trip over to Helsinki or Copenhagen. We'll see a family "in poverty" there and then take a jaunt through my old neighborhood and visit a family "in poverty" here. At that time, we'll decide together which family you'd want to be. I'm not too concerned about the outcome Phil. I would imagine an unemployed person in Oslo lives a better life than many of the working poor in this nation. Hell, from what I saw in Copenhagen when I was there...I know so for that nation.

Maybe not "necessary", but what's wrong with trading with other
nations, things they want for things we want, to make our lives just
that much better? Just minimize our dealings with our enemy nations.


If we ever had a serious and open debate about what we wanted in this nation (which is what I'm advocating) I doubt there would be any desire to trade for "things we want".

I'd rather be safe than have a doll from China.
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:02 AM   #89
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Quote:
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You can continue to fuel airplanes with oil.

We do not need to drill for more oil to fuel our planes.
Fresh, all forms of energy must be considered. All are appropriate in certain circumstances, all have drawbacks. None are perfect in every case. To refuse to consider all alternatives, as you do here, is not only short-sighted, but is foolish as well.
Any additional domestic production of oil will decrease our balance of trade deficit, something that you fail to see. Reducing the balance of trade deficit will help our economy, just for the record. I thought you leftists were in favor of that, but I guess not.
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:06 AM   #90
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And Fresh, if global warming were indeed happening, I would be concerned about it. The Earth is cooling, albeit slowly. The peak temperatures were reached a decade ago.
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