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Old 09-02-2008, 11:55 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by HibachiDG View Post
I would argue that we are not in desperate shape on numerous fronts.

I guess that can only be explained away by figuring it's the setting from which you view things.

If it weren't for where you were sitting, you might find the growing unemployment rate to be a desperate issue. Or the million+ home foreclosures. Or the fact that the 2 biggest mortgage giants, Fannie May & Freddie Mac are sinking into oblivion. Or the housing slump that has severely hurt the manufacturing/construction/retail market.

Or the hundred of thousands of jobs that have been eliminated since the 1st of the year as companies downsize or go under. Or the tax rebate that was a thinly veiled attempt at kick starting consumer spending to forestall a recession. Or the ever rising bankruptcy filings in record #s. Or the amazing shrinking US dollar decreasing abroad. Or the billions spent outside of our borders while the American citizens continue to suffer.

Or the ever rising gas cost as it inches toward $5 a gallon while no party had any foresight to the Russian Roulette game we were playing with the oil barons & refused to react due to who they were in bed with. Or the ever rising energy costs...natural gas/electricity...that has record #s of citizens being cut-off due to payment arrears. Or the disappearing middle class. Or...etc., etc., etc.

If this short list of examples aren't desperate enough, do we wait for Armageddon to use the term?

Part of this countries problems can be traced back to a great % of people who only get alarmed when it directly affects them which is a misplaced reaction when ultimately most everything has an effect somewhere down the road on everyone if not more immediate in a lot of instances.

I absolutely did not mean to go through history looking for the exact set of circumstances. Just would say to go through those historical contexts and look at why change occurred, then look at the United States currently. We're a lot better off than what you're going to find when you look back through history and find moments were people rose up as one and fought the establishment, so to speak.
I guess I'm one who doesn't buy into the "Hey, things could be worse" or "Hey, things are better than the past" theory.

While it's good that some things have gotten better in some cases, it definitely has no bearing on progress that needs to be ongoing every day in this country & isn't. Besides, some of the current issues are unique in their own right of corporate entities having even more power & influence than ever before & has the Government playing the sycophant to new lows.

As far as "fighting the establishment":

There is still a place & always will be a place for fighting the establishment. Governments will always be run by people & always have some knuckleheads trying to abuse the power in their favor. So while, for example let's say back in the '60s, there was a time for mob-like & at times, violent demonstrations, to pass along the public view, today's 'voice' should be used in the present setting where it's not necessary to use old methods but still as important to lend a voice to 'elected' officials conduct & efficiency, or lack thereof. Mind you, they're still 'elected' & they still are public servants but shame on the people if they constantly allow them to act like they're more than that or above the fray.

So don't mistake that being involved can only be by using old examples that were necessary back then. Today is a different time but don't belittle or write off the change that can still come from involvement.

I think it is hard to square the concept of displeasure as a whole with reality. Of course when you look at any situation you are going to find displeasure. As well, you're going to find levels of displeasure. If you phrased the question to people as "pleased and content" or "bad, desperate needs" then I think the large majority of people in this country will answer with pleased and content. Same with if you phrased it as simple good or bad. If the majority of people were to answer bad, desperate needs, then I would agree with some of what you're saying about generating a significant change.

Now, within saying good over bad, there are levels of discontent, displeasure and even "desperate" situations. Which is where I think the two parties come into play. I think one of the things that you're doing is confusing the levels of discontent within an overall favorable situation with a bad situation overall. That's just not the case. And, for people that think the country is generally good, but there are things that we can improve as there always are, the argument stays between the two major parties.
Spoken like someone interested in law...

That's just a lot of misdirection without bearing. The list above that entails just a few of the issues that the public has been crying about is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'd venture a guess that you, personally, aren't affected by much if any of those above issues or your frustration & dissatisfaction would be well evident. I wouldn't wish any of them on you but I'd say your view would be forever altered if you were.

As far as the questions to people & what particular words:

Yea, if you want to get out of taking ownership of issues, whether as a politician or an apathetic voter, by going for a 'general' question that answers problems/issues with a positive thing,'d be horseshoeing people into saying "I guess it's still the best place to live".

The reality is that these issues should & aren't being addressed for a myriad of reasons...all unacceptable. No one should be accepting things in lump sum issues like some sort of silly Bill being passed in tonnage with the 'good things' on top while the 'bad things' are hidden from view. It's just a smoke screen of BS.

So I'm not "confusing the levels of discontent" but you're definitely tap dancing around the issues while dismissing responsibilities of this Government as tho it's not the job they're in office to do. I guess I just was raised in a different time where 'accountability of the responsibility' was part of the job description if you took the job.

Nah, the point I was trying to make there is that we have certainly had great moments in this country despite this perceived symptom you threw out.
Sorry, Doug, but useless wordplay. I never implied there wasn't some great things done & being done in this country in one way or another, just that sitting on one's ass pointing at 'the plaque on the wall', bragging how great we are as a country using particular examples, doesn't take the responsibility for all the crap that goes on & is swept under the carpet by the people it doesn't directly affect which mysteriously is always the Blue Bloods, never the common man.

Just by voting who in? You mean now against the Republicans? Or in the process of selecting the candidate? I don't think I've ever said I would just simply vote for a Democrat because that's the Democratic candidate. If the Obama/Clinton race hadn't been as close as it was I likely would not have voted for Clinton. In 2004, I forget who I voted for, but it was either Kucinich or Sharpton just because the nominee was decided and I felt like those two candidates talked about some things the other candidates did not. I have no idea if this paragraph answered what you were saying, but I really didn't understand what you were getting at.
I guess I mistakenly took your choice of a strong Democratic Party as being the right choice who you were loyal to from your wording. Sorry about that but...

The idea that you can't even remember who you voted for in the last election tells me that the process isn't so important to you nor the issues & if you believe in a strong Democratic Party, you're sure not doing anything I can see to help that along.

& if by saying "Sharpton" you mean Al... whew

Last edited by Tarkus; 09-03-2008 at 12:16 AM.
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