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Old 04-18-2008, 01:36 AM   #1
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Default About religion...

or protecting other passengers rights or just about a crumbling of society's manners & tolerance?

Excerpt:

*********************************

Praying passenger removed from flight
Orthodox Jewish man ignored flight crew instructions during religious ritual

NEW YORK - A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard, a witness and the airline said.

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn't stop until his prayers were over in about 2 minutes, he said.

"He doesn't respond to them, but his friends explain that once you start praying you can't stop," said Brafman, who was seated three rows away.

When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn't interrupt his religious ritual and wasn't trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had been visiting New York to talk to publishers.

The plane, Flight 9 to San Francisco, took off without the man. It landed at its destination as scheduled, Brafman said by telephone from his home there.

Robin Urbanski, a spokeswoman for United Airlines, a subsidiary of UAL Corp. with headquarters in Chicago, confirmed the man was taken off the plane and put on another flight Thursday morning.

Urbanksi said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.

***************************************


So it was obviously not about risking a delay since it obviously took longer to call a guard & have him escorted from the plane & that the plane reportedly landed on time...

& it was obvious why he wasn't responding since his friends explained why he wasn't answering them...

& by accounts, he explained himself why he didn't respond & that he wasn't trying to be rude.

So what was the reason? Why the rigid adherence to policy? What were they afraid of?

Just curious what others thought. I already have my views...
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:37 AM   #2
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Contrary to popular belief, consumerism trumps religion every time in this land!

But this doesn't suprise me at all. The stupidity of airlines cannot be underestimated.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:57 AM   #3
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I guess my only real questions would be:

Did he have to pray at that particular time? And, if so, why did he book a flight that potentially conflicts with his prayers if the ritual is that important to him?

The article does not go into any detail as to why it was he had to get up out of his seat and say his prayers at that particular time prior to the plane taking off. Based on what little info presented in that article for all I know he intentionally did it to try and cause a scene on the plane. I am not saying he did do that, but, could he not have arranged something with the flight attendants beforehand? They have cut the guy a bit more slack if he had not just randomly got up out of his seat to begin praying at the back of the plane.

But, that is also not to say that the airline did not overreact because it seems as though they did. It was not as though he was potentially delaying take off by 10 minutes. I just wonder if he could not have avoided the whole blow up if he had just communicated with the flight attendants beforehand instead of, apparently, just getting up and saying his prayers at the back of the plane.

Maybe they let him board first so he can be done with his prayers by the time everyone is seated on the plane if he broaches the subject with the airline workers ahead of time.
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
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So it was obviously not about risking a delay since it obviously took longer to call a guard & have him escorted from the plane & that the plane reportedly landed on time…
The problem here Tark is that if you allow it now, then you gotta allow it later for others (maybe someone gotta pray to their god for 50 minutes before takeoff) so in essence, it was about policy and nipping the situation in the bud for fear of future delay.

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& by accounts, he explained himself why he didn't respond & that he wasn't trying to be rude
The article didn’t state that the attendants were ticked by their actions or words. What motivation they had to summon the guard remains to be seen but if the book says call the guard over…call the guard over. I do things at my job by the book that torture them…which I enjoy. Other times I have to do things that let them off the hook…per the book…which I hate. My only solice is that I can find ways to piss them off at a later date.

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So what was the reason? Why the rigid adherence to policy? What were they afraid of?
I go thru life expecting people to screw me over and doing what is in their best interest instead of what would be kind or nice. Somewhere there were rules made available to this man…most likely…and he probably won’t have much recourse. What they are afraid of is lost profit…obviously…when you have to delay takeoff for every flight cuz someone is doing a religious/spiritual exercise in the john.
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:12 PM   #5
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The only way to protect yourself from any kind of civil liability is rigid adherence to policy, absent of what some would call "common sense" Common sense can get you sued nowadays, you have to make sure you treat everyone the same, even to the point of doing something like this. If they let him finish prayer, they would have to let me stretch my legs if I want, or use the lavatory, or whatever. They can't show preferential treatment because he is praying, as opposed to another kind of disturbance.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:18 PM   #6
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All good points...

My take was more simpler in that the report isn't the same as seeing how it went down & we're just getting basically 1 rendition which is from a witness. But...

I wonder how intense the 9 -11 fallout still is as this would seem to be an easy trouble shoot scenario where airline personnel could have solved this one in a breeze. I doubt the airlines was happy this reached the point of action & the news & quietly hoped it never came to this. Having a delay over something like this would be bad for business but allowing this to become a story line sure isn't either.

It just seems that we're faced with more & more things like this where there's not a lot of 'thinking on your feet'. Policies are necessary & have to be adhered to but there's always been room for some heady managing to appease all involved. Nowadays there's more instances of a dumbing down effect where people just don't seem to step up as much anymore & just do the minimum.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:18 AM   #7
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I don't think this story line does much harm here as long as the airline remains consistent across the religious board. With the problems the airline industry has this incident isn't even on page 1 of their agenda IMO.

I understand the "thinking on your feet" mentality but we have to consider policy and what employees were instructed to do. Ya never know how much/how little someone is doing for you in their field unless you are intimate with the goings on in that profession. I try to take that into consideration...but I agree with ya that sometimes we get to a point where I see nothing remotely logical.

The problem probably has to do more with how dumb people are based on my experiences. Just two weeks ago when I flew Cleveland to LA and back I witnessed the following...

1. A woman at the counter in LA had lost her ticket and demanded she be allowed on the plane by simply giving her social security number.

2. Before takeoff from Cleveland the flight attendants were going over the procedures for safety and telling everyone where the restrooms/emergency exits were. I noticed the situation stunk of 4th period as nobody was paying attention. Sitting in the first row I was next to the emergency exits and the restrooms were ahead of me. During that flight, 9 people asked the flight attendant where the restroom was.



Worse yet, when she was in the back of the plane serving drinks a woman (in her 50s) got up from the seat across from me and attempted to open the emergency exit thinking it was the john.

Yep, I almost got sucked out of a plane at 50,000 feet cuz this woman was reading Cosmopolitan (no s-hit...I saw her during the instructions) and didn't know what the hell was going on. The man next to me immediately jumped up and stopped her.

Again, I hear ya Tark but the line between trying to simply use common sense and the idiocy of people is a tough one to walk nowadays.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go deal with 4th period (wishes he was sucked outta that plane).

Thank you.


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Old 04-21-2008, 07:51 PM   #8
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Good points, Buck

I guess I'm just not easy to please...
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Good points, Buck

I guess I'm just not easy to please...


I mean...I'm with ya Tark but as God as my witness I had some nut on my plane trying to open that emergency door thinking it was the tinkle room. She wouldn't have done it mind you but damn...sometimes I just can't blame folks for simply following procedure rather than trying to deal with the public.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:48 PM   #10
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Speaking of religion, I found this to be hilarious:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/310592/
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