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Old 07-07-2008, 12:19 PM   #1
CKFresh
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Default All Star Voting

Do you have a problem with fans voting for the All Star game? Keep in mind, the All Star game counts for something, home field advantage in the World Series.

I do have a problem with the entire selection process for the All Star game. For one, as seen this year in Milwaukee, a late "push" or campagin for a certain team/player can completely alter who gets voted in.

51 years after baseball took the All-Star vote away from fans because of ballot-stuffing in Cincinnati, will Bud Selig have the cajones to look in his own backyard of Milwaukee where something fishy went down with the final balloting for the All-Star Game?

It's not the Ryan Braun overtook Ken Griffey Jr. in the fan voting for next week's All-Star Game. Braun deserves to start and good for people recognizing that.

Griffey certainly isn't complaining, a 13-time All-Star, Griffey's going to spend the All-Star break with his family, where he'd rather be, all things considered.

No, it's beyond the top three outfielders spots. Griffey finished fourth in voting in the NL outfield, but fifth and sixth belonged to Corey Hart and Mike Cameron. Hart is certainly deserving with a .296 average, 14 home runs and 55 RBIs. Hart's even on the trumped up, silly Budism of the "Final Ballot" where fans can vote for the final spot. Cameron, on the other hand, is hitting .227 with 14 homers and 33 RBIs. Hardly All-Star stats.

As undeserving as Cameron is ahead of, well, most National League outfielders (I mean, seriously, 80,000 more votes than Matt Holliday and nearly 400,000 more than Ryan Ludwick?), the worst is Rickie Weeks third among second baemen -- 350,000 more votes than Dan Uggla. Not only should Rickie Weeks not have 350,000 more votes than Ugga, with a .208 average, I'm not sure Rickie Weeks should have 350,000 votes total. Brandon Phillips didn't make the top eight in voting, which is what was released by MLB and eighth was Luis Castillo of the Mets with 662,979. Are you telling me (assuming Phillips had 662,978 votes) that Rickie Weeks is three times the second baseman that Brandon Phillips is? Silly

Prince Fielder was second among first baseman, Bill Hall (.227/11/34) fourth among third basemen, J.J. Hardy second among shortstops (almost 1 million more than Jose Reyes?) and Jason Kendall second in catchers?

Just ridiculous.

This is just another reason the idea of the All-Star Game "counting" is ridiculous. Because if it really mattered -- and, well, it does with home field advantage -- you wouldn't let a popular vote decide it. Seriously, why not just let the fans decide which team gets home field advantage.

Secondly, look at the voting at 2nd base.

2nd Basemen Voting
1. Chase Utley - Phillies - 3,889,602
2. Mark DeRosa - Cubs - 2,039,576
3. Rickie Weeks - Brewers - 1,874,503
4. Dan Uggla - Marlins - 1,520,065
5. Kazuo Matsui - Astros - 1,428,899
6. Orlando Hudson - D-Backs - 834,453

Utley makes sense, but where is Brandon Phillips on this list? Rickie Weeks? Isn't he hitting just above the Mendoza Line? Kaz Matsui?

Brandon Phillips is hitting nearly .300, with 14 HRs, 18 SB, 55 RBI, and he hasn't made an error in almost 80 games (meanwhile making spectacular plays every game).

Of course I am taking a Reds' fan approach to this argument, but that's only because the Reds are the only team I know enough about to make this argument. I'm sure all of you have players on your favorite team who have reason to complain.

The other problem with All Star selection is the fact that "every team has to be represented." Garbage.

Opinions?
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:55 PM   #2
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Meh, the only time the voting ever really bothers me is when someone gets the nod when they clearly don't deserve it. I was glad to see Griffey get pushed out since he has been resoundingly mediocre this year.

With that said the only real gripes I have this year are: Alfonso Soriano, Kosuke Fukodome, and Ichiro.

Fukodome has no business even sniffing an All Star Game and has to be one of the most overrated players in baseball right now. Please can they stop trying to compare him to Ichiro the guy is nowhere near Ichiro's skill level. The guy is hitting .287 with 7 homers and 35 RBIs. He ranks 11th in hitting, 30th in homers, and 26th in RBIs amongst NL outfielders. He is on pace to hit 13 homers and drive in 65 runs.

Soriano has no business in there either. First of all he has missed 38 games of the season. Carlos Lee and Pat Burrell both have put up better numbers and have not missed significant time due to injury.

Ichiro has been in a funk all year long and is just now getting his batting average up to .300 for the year. Unless Ichiro is hitting .350 it is hard to label him an All Star since he hits for little to no power and does not drive in any runs. The only thing he is still putting up elite numbers in is stolen bases this year. J. D. Drew and Jermaine Dye are both having infinitely better seasons than Ichiro this year.

As for Brandon Phillips I don't see the point in griping about how many votes he did or did not get when Utley and Uggla's numbers are so much better than everyone else's at the position this year. Maybe if I thought Phillips actually deserved to be voted in this year I could be more sympathetic about it.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:10 PM   #3
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I agree on Griffey. He had no business playing in this All Star game.

As for 2nd base, you'll get no argument out of me on Utley - but Uggla? Other than HRs, where is Uggle better than Phillips? The answer is nowhere.

They are hitting around the same average (Uggla .289, Phillips .292), RBI ( Uggla 58, Phillips 56), and Runs (Uggla 57, Phillips 51).

Phillips meanwhile has 18 stolen bases to Uggla's 4.

Offensively, it's basically a wash.

Turn it to defensive - Brandon Phillips by far the best defesive 2nd basemen in baseball (best range, best fielding percentage) and Uggla is a defensive liability.

Uggla has 6 times as many errors as Phillips - and less chances too...

SO, yes Utley's numbers and performance out-shine Brandon Phillips. Dan Uggla, not so much.

Either way, Rickie Weeks receiving 3 times the votes of Brandon Phillips just shows the flaws of the system.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKFresh View Post
As for 2nd base, you'll get no argument out of me on Utley - but Uggla? Other than HRs, where is Uggle better than Phillips? The answer is nowhere.

They are hitting around the same average (Uggla .289, Phillips .292), RBI ( Uggla 58, Phillips 56), and Runs (Uggla 57, Phillips 51).

Phillips meanwhile has 18 stolen bases to Uggla's 4.

Offensively, it's basically a wash.
While Phillips' numbers are comparable in many areas Uggla has 48 extra base hits to Phillips' 37 and his OPS is .995 compared to Phillips' .831.

Quote:
Turn it to defensive - Brandon Phillips by far the best defesive 2nd basemen in baseball (best range, best fielding percentage) and Uggla is a defensive liability.

Uggla has 6 times as many errors as Phillips - and less chances too...
Wow, way to try and overwhelmingly skew the facts in Phillips' favor there. I mean come on Uggla has six times as many errors than Phillips because he only has one error. But to call Uggla a defensive liability seems a bit of a stretch to me. He has only six errors and seriously only Phillips and Ray Durham have better defenisve numbers than Uggla. So to call Uggla a defensive liablity is basically saying every other 2B in the league besides Durham is a defensive liability. Uggla does average more chances per 9 innings than Phillips does. Not saying that Uggla is a gold glove caliber fielder but you can do far worse than him defensively at second base.

Besides, nobody looks at defensive numbers when picking All Stars, not even the media does unless they guy is Ozzie Smith.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by doublee View Post
While Phillips' numbers are comparable in many areas Uggla has 48 extra base hits to Phillips' 37 and his OPS is .995 compared to Phillips' .831.
Good point, but I would argue that the stolen bases make up for the difference in extra base hits. In terms of total bases, Uggla only leads Phillips by 7 (178 to 171).

Likewise, if you break it down further, Uggla has 24 doubles and 1 triple (25 total) where Phillips has 18 doubles and 5 triples (23 total). More for Uggla, but more bases for Phillips.

Splitting hairs, maybe. But I think my point is, Phillips speed is the great equalizer, even though Uggla's numbers look slightly better on the surface.

Quote:
Wow, way to try and overwhelmingly skew the facts in Phillips' favor there. I mean come on Uggla has six times as many errors than Phillips because he only has one error.
:lol:

I was hoping you wouldn't catch that...

But give me a break, I'm trying to make a case here

Quote:
But to call Uggla a defensive liability seems a bit of a stretch to me. He has only six errors and seriously only Phillips and Ray Durham have better defenisve numbers than Uggla. So to call Uggla a defensive liablity is basically saying every other 2B in the league besides Durham is a defensive liability. Uggla does average more chances per 9 innings than Phillips does. Not saying that Uggla is a gold glove caliber fielder but you can do far worse than him defensively at second base.
I'd be interested to compare their range. Any idea on where one could find that info?

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Besides, nobody looks at defensive numbers when picking All Stars, not even the media does unless they guy is Ozzie Smith.
I understand. I guess my point was, when offensive numbers are comparable, and fairly equal, superb defense should certainly be considered.

Maybe defense isn't considered when picking All Stars, but my argument would be that it should be considered, especially when two players are similar offensively.

But the larger point is, Brandon Phillips didn't rank in the top 8 among 2nd basemen... He is clearly in the top 3 in the NL (or top 2 in my view). Obviously the fans aren't voting for the best players.
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:00 PM   #6
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I have mixed feelings on this one. Wasn't Pudge or Posada or someone voted in a couple of years ago and had only played in like 20 games or something due to injury?
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:06 PM   #7
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I have mixed feelings on this one. Wasn't Pudge or Posada or someone voted in a couple of years ago and had only played in like 20 games or something due to injury?
I'm sure it's happened, but I don't know specifically which player you are talking about.

But just look at this season. Griffey just barely missed the cut... Griffey - hitting under .240 with 11 HRs...

I wouldn't care if the game was meaningless, but it's not. Home field advantage in the series is a big deal.

In addition, you often hear people mention the number of All Star appearances when debating someone's Hall of Fame credentials. Why should we allow homer fans (like myself) determine such a large part of a players legacy? Especially when we (the fans) get it wrong so often.
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:59 PM   #8
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I love all-star time... we have the same arguments every year Last year it was me leading the argument about Youk getting snubbed...

But I really do not have a problem with the fans voting since its the fans watching and paying for seats. Although, even though some players are infact stars and deserve it, I wish the media would lose the "2 time all star" line when discussing certain players who obviously got in because of popularity and not necessarily skill, ya know?

Fresh makes good points, but I guess we all just need to roll with the punches and enjoy the game.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:02 PM   #9
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I love all-star time... we have the same arguments every year Last year it was me leading the argument about Youk getting snubbed...

But I really do not have a problem with the fans voting since its the fans watching and paying for seats. Although, even though some players are infact stars and deserve it, I wish the media would lose the "2 time all star" line when discussing certain players who obviously got in because of popularity and not necessarily skill, ya know?

Fresh makes good points, but I guess we all just need to roll with the punches and enjoy the game.
Yeah, it is "the fans game," and I'm cool with that. I just think if they want the fans to decide, than the game should be meaningless, with no impact on the World Series.

If they want it to dermine home field, they need to ensure that the best players are represented from each side.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:10 PM   #10
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Fans game... I get that but, please explain to me how Tek gets the nod over someone like A.J. Pierzynski or (even though he was selected) Navarro?
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:48 PM   #11
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The players voted Varitek in. I have no problem with his selection.
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:45 PM   #12
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Cat, what about the selection process in general?

Your thoughts would be welcomed
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:52 PM   #13
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Philips is a lot better defensively than Uggla, mostly because Brandon is so awesome.

I think we all have come to understand that fan voting and player voting both have their biases. That's why I don't really consider All-Star selections when thinking about a player's HOF chances.

When the hell are these games going to stop counting? Sigh.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:09 AM   #14
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Philips is a lot better defensively than Uggla, mostly because Brandon is so awesome.

I think we all have come to understand that fan voting and player voting both have their biases. That's why I don't really consider All-Star selections when thinking about a player's HOF chances.

When the hell are these games going to stop counting? Sigh.
Agreed. Seems to me that the only solution is to make the game purely an exhibition.
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:42 AM   #15
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The players voted Varitek in. I have no problem with his selection.
Players or not how can you justify him being selected?
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