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Old 10-14-2005, 05:08 PM   #16
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I think the NHL should ban fighting, period. How many more serious injuries need to occur before they see this?

This is a league who gives you timeout for knocking someone's teeth out and making them bleed (and that's just a minor injury). What is this, second grade?

It's equally pathetic that so much of the draw to this sport, at least to casual American fans, is the fighting. It's pretty low that that's what they have to rely on it keep people interested.

I say outlaw fighting and have some class — just like other pro sports.
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Old 10-15-2005, 08:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
I think the NHL should ban fighting, period. How many more serious injuries need to occur before they see this?
The serious injures do NOT come from the fighting. Marc, you are essentially are arguing for MORE serious injuries by wanting to ban fighting. If you understood the game, you'd know this. Instead, you made an argument consisting of "fighting is bad and low class" without having a grip on what the game is.

Don Cherry just said it best on CBC, "there's a code you people don't understand"

Fighting is a part of hockey because it establishes the game. You protect your players, you even scores, you set the tone.

Hockey has been on a downward spiral since they've been trying to put the clamps on hockey.

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It's equally pathetic that so much of the draw to this sport, at least to casual American fans, is the fighting. It's pretty low that that's what they have to rely on it keep people interested.
It's equally pathetic that you don't understand the purpose of fighting in the context of sport and chose to talk about outlawing it. It's not what they rely on to keep people interested. It's part of the game, the problem comes when you try to limit it and make the fighting gimmicky.

Sorry, but learn some of the history behind a sport before attacking it like this.

That comment "have some class" about the fighting is simply out of line and frankly, Marc, you're showing less class by mentioning it in the manner you do.
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:35 PM   #18
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So enlighten me, if fighting isn't where serious injuries come from, where DO they come from? Accidents in game play? And to insinuate that I am arguing for more serious injuries is ridiculous when I'm against fighting period.

"You people don't understand?" The NHL better make people understand if it wants to be around in 10 years. It can't afford to be all exclusive and have an elitist attitude like that. Make me understand then!

Fighting establishes the game? It's just an excuse for thuggery. The NFL is more physical than the NHL, yet they don't need to allow fights by grown men acting like schoolyard boys. If you want to set the tone, do it in a respectable, responsible way in the game play, not by going and attacking the other guy.

Hockey has been on a downward spiral because of reprehensible marketing and a failure to connect to the average American who can't pronounce most of the Eastern European names. Further, Canadian teams, where the hardcore fans are, haven't been able to exist financially, relegating teams to places like Florida, Atlanta, and Carolina, where hockey isn't in the minds of people. That's what's put hockey in a downward spiral. It's far more serious than just rules and events ON the ice.

Pardon me, but I don't see what's so pathetic about wanting to have a clean, respectable game without the thuggery. The NFL, NBA, and MLB don't allow it and they do fine, so why should the NHL? I'm sorry, but the whole "it's a part of tradition/history" argument is rubbish. Look where tradition/history has taken the game ... that's right, the freakin' OLN network and out of America's sight. Might want to start re-thinking yourself, eh?
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:54 PM   #19
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Marc, the thing is, you don't understand what you're arguing. You say you want a clean, respectable game without thuggery, but what eliminating fighting would do would lead to more thuggery and more incidents such as the Bertuzzi incident.

The Bertuzzi incident came about because the league is trying to cut down on fighting. That serious injury would not have happened in the 80s because two players would have squared off and fought.

You're idea that fighting is dirty and thuggery is simply turning a blind eye to the sport.

You are most definitely arguing for more injuries and your failure to see that just shows that you don't know much about the sport.

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Look where tradition/history has taken the game ... that's right, the freakin' OLN network and out of America's sight.
You do realize that it's on the OLN because they've moved AWAY from fighting, right?

Fighting can be clean. fighting can be done with honor.

Personally I'm dissapointed that the NHL is back because Americans frankly don't understand the sport. I loved hockey when I was a kid, but this is a watered down game now.

Serious injuries don't come out of fighting. Serious injuries do come out harsher penalties and attempting to restrict fighting. Serious injuries out of thuggish plays are on the upswing ever since they started to move away from fighting.

Marc, you are arguing for more injuries.
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Old 10-15-2005, 10:31 PM   #20
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I'm in some fantasy leagues so was here looking at things and do not want to post here but this post by ignorant Mr. Marc here was too good to pass up.

This incident was not a fight. It was a cheap cheap hit. Though I agree with Brian and everything he said about Bertuzzi returning, it was still a pretty cheap punch.

The only place where fighting has no place is in this thread. The Bertuzzi mugging had nothing at all to do with fighting. If you want to close a thread for going off topic, this would be one because fighting has nothing to do in this thread except for the fact that fighting would have actually prevented this occurance.

Two-three weeks before Bertuzzi's hit, Moore took a cheap shot to the head of one of the top 3 point scorers in the NHL, Bertuzzi's teammate Markus Naslund and put him out of the Vancouver lineup for three games. Had the NHL had not started the instigator penalty a few years ago, someone from Vancouver would have dropped the gloves with Moore, there would have been a clean fight, they would have gone to the penalty box for 5 minutes, and this would have been the last you heard of it.

However, because of the instigator penalty, no one started a fight for fear of getting an extra 2 minute penalty for instigating a fight, thus putting his team in a 5-on-4 situation. So, the turmoil between Vancouver and Moore boiled until the next game. This resulted in Bertuzzi's hit on Moore. He did not mean to break his neck. Doctors say it is impossible to tell if the punch broke his neck, the fall to the ice, the fall of Bertuzzi on top of him, or the fall of about 4-5 200+ lb hockey players on top of him. Regardless, it never would have happened if the NHL did not try to prevent fighting by starting the instigator penalty. Without this rule, this series of events would have ended the same day Moore took a cheap shot at one of the NHL's best players weeks before it actually did end.

Fighting ENCOURAGES respect in hockey. New players in the NHL have no respect for the great players in the game like they once did in the 60s and 70s and 80s when all the great stars had "protection" on the ice. If you hit a great player in those days, at least as cheaply as Naslund was hit, you would PAY for it by having to face a guy like Bertuzzi in a fight. But because you can't do that anymore without the fear of putting your team on the penalty kill, you have to resort to trying to sneakily hit him just as dirty in return. An example is as simple as going back to the preseason and Roenick's concussion.

The fact Naslund couldn't play the games he missed because of Moore could have been the difference between the Canucks' #3 seed and a possible #1 or #2 seed in the playoffs. Because this issue was not resolved on the night it occured, leading to this Bertuzzi hit, and thus Bertuzzi being suspended by the league, most definitely resulted in the Canucks losing their first round playoff series.

Doug, I agree completely with you, Brian, and Don. People who don't understand hockey don't understand fighting and its place in the game. It's always been there and it always will be. Without it there would be even more events like or similar to Bertuzzi's hit on Moore.
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Old 10-15-2005, 10:47 PM   #21
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Good points. And those who say Moore should not be seen sorely as a victim have good to reason to say so. But unfortunately, it's the one who gets caught that has to pay for it, and in this case, it was Bertuzzi. That's just life.

But my main point is this: so if fighting prevents even worse things from happening, why can't hockey enforce such strict measures that any retaliatory actions will be discouraged? Fighting is bad, but at least both players know what's coming and there isn't usually serious injury. I say you fine and/or suspend players for trying to get someone back with a cheapshot or preconceived action.

I still think fighting shouldn't be allowed, and to an even greater degree, the actions that you say occur because of no fighting should be so severely punished that a player would have to think twice before doing it.

And, for me, as a hockey outsider and someone trying to understand this, why is it different for hockey than any other major sport? Why don't other pro sports need this? Are hockey players such savage, heartless beasts that they either need to fight or they'll end up hurting someone even worse? I don't get it.

I have a feeling that the answer is "you just don't get it," but I'm trying to understand, honest.

P.S. How's the job at Rim, LeeMan? Frankly, I'm impressed your post had good info rather than blasting and insulting me. Props.

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Old 10-15-2005, 11:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
And, for me, as a hockey outsider and someone trying to understand this, why is it different for hockey than any other major sport? Why don't other pro sports need this? Are hockey players such savage, heartless beasts that they either need to fight or they'll end up hurting someone even worse? I don't get it.

I have a feeling that the answer is "you just don't get it,"
The answer certainly is that you don't get it. Although you don't get it, I feel you can get it. I think the first step is to look at fighting in a different light. I think you're going into this argument with a bad chip on your shoulder when you say things like hockey needs to get the fighting out to be a classier sport. Fighting is rough, but it's also strategic. Well, it used to be, back when hockey was a better sport.

I told you over AIM that Wayne Gretzky's career would have been completely different without fighting. Fighting allowed Gretzky room to manuever because people wouldn't take a run (clean, part of the game, just a damn good check, I don't mean cheap shot) at Gretzky because if they did, they would have to fight McSorley.

Hockey is a completely different sport and fighting is a part of it because it helps to protect the players that need to be protected. If you don't protect the players that need protected, you don't have a sport. You can't have a roughing the wingman penalty, because that would just be silly. So, you let players protect each other.

Just for a quick rundown of why fighting should go in hockey but not other sports...

Baseball...I'm for hitting batters and brawls there and think you degrade the game if you get rid of it.

Basketball...Just not enough contact and BUILT IN RULES to protect players. Big difference.

Football...built in rules to protect players and it is a different kind of contact sport. There's no need to allow fighting because the hitting will be the same either way. In hockey, fighting flat out changes the game.

I also think fighting is safer because *******es don't get courageous and try to knock someone around with their stick or other cheap manners.

The thing is, no one is out there going "damn, I want to hurt this guy, like FOR REAL hurt him and put him out and maybe paralyze him". They're out there trying to push how far they can go and sometimes they make mistakes. Without fighting you see more and more people trying to push how far they can go and as we have seen the past few seasons, they make mistakes.
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Old 10-17-2005, 07:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
I stand corrected. But what is it going to take for a league NOT to reinstate a player? Murder?

The answer is to that question is obvious: Gambling!:lol:
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:20 PM   #24
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A lot of the main points have been covered already as to why fighting is important in hockey. Fighting settles scores and revenge the proper way. If the crapiest player on the team your playing against decides to take off your best player's head in a game, what would happen? You'd go insane and want to take off his. You probably would if fighting were banned. Instead you settle the score, drop the gloves and settle the issue. The suggestion to even ban fighting is absolutely ridiculous. If fighting were banned all these years then we'd never see a Wayne Gretzky excel and dominate the game because some journey man would've taken his head off. And why would the journey man care? He wouldn't have to worry about facing a McSorley and getting into a scrap. What are the Oilers to do? Nothing, watch the guy get a suspension (or in Moore's hit on Naslund's case, nothing) while their best player is out.

It's only the people who don't care about hockey who want fighting and Bertuzzi banned. People believe the crap from CNN that Bertuzzi "the monster" wanted to break Moore's neck and that Moore was this innocent target with no history. There's nobody out there who is more sorry for this then Big Bert. He has to hear all the constant crap on how everything is his fault and that he's this huge devil. He missed Vancouver's playoff run in which he helped get the Canucks there, he missed the World Cup, and he missed the chance to go play in Europe where he would've been a huge commodity. And to get the main point across once again, none of this would've never happened if Moore wasn't looking to put Naslund on the shelf. There wouldn't be a need to drop the gloves and the Bertuzzi incident would've never happened.
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
If fighting were banned all these years then we'd never see a Wayne Gretzky excel and dominate the game because some journey man would've taken his head off. And why would the journey man care? He wouldn't have to worry about facing a McSorley and getting into a scrap. What are the Oilers to do? Nothing, watch the guy get a suspension (or in Moore's hit on Naslund's case, nothing) while their best player is out.
I think that is a ridiculous statement. So are you saying no one "took off" Gretzky's head because they were afraid of getting beat up? Give me a break, no one is afraid of anyone in the NHL. Gretzky was good and excelled because of his pure talent, not because he was protected and players were afraid being "beaten up"... c'mon!

1. I played hockey growing up in and in HS. I don't care how big someone else was, if you get in a fight, you get in fight - for whatever reason.
2. Even if you know you're going to get your head kicked in, you think reffs / coaches / players, etc. are gonna stand there and let you get the sh** kicked out of you? No, the fight will be broken up before any major damage is done (just like in the NHL).

I'm not saying I want fighting banned... in fact, that has nothing to do with this argument. And I don't think Bertuzzi wanted to break Moore's neck on purpose... but the fact is he did. I'm sure he's sorry (and he should be), but to attack someone from behind (cheap-shot), and cause the ammount of damage he did to a player, I think he shouldn't of been re-instated. I think he's piece of garbage. If Bertuzzi is so tuff... why couldn't he hit Moore when Moore was looking, skate right up to him and pop him, not hit him from behind where he is defensless.
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Old 11-05-2005, 02:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boston_aloha
I think that is a ridiculous statement. So are you saying no one "took off" Gretzky's head because they were afraid of getting beat up? Give me a break, no one is afraid of anyone in the NHL. Gretzky was good and excelled because of his pure talent, not because he was protected and players were afraid being "beaten up"... c'mon!

1. I played hockey growing up in and in HS. I don't care how big someone else was, if you get in a fight, you get in fight - for whatever reason.
2. Even if you know you're going to get your head kicked in, you think reffs / coaches / players, etc. are gonna stand there and let you get the sh** kicked out of you? No, the fight will be broken up before any major damage is done (just like in the NHL).

I'm not saying I want fighting banned... in fact, that has nothing to do with this argument. And I don't think Bertuzzi wanted to break Moore's neck on purpose... but the fact is he did. I'm sure he's sorry (and he should be), but to attack someone from behind (cheap-shot), and cause the ammount of damage he did to a player, I think he shouldn't of been re-instated. I think he's piece of garbage. If Bertuzzi is so tuff... why couldn't he hit Moore when Moore was looking, skate right up to him and pop him, not hit him from behind where he is defensless.
I am exactly saying nobody took Gretzky's head off because of the enforcers and protection around him. Who the hell would want to get in a scrap with McSorley when he played for the Oilers, the man had insane intensity and let it be known that if you try to take out the best player on the team your next. Greztky excelled because of his talent, but if there wasn't solid protection for him in his early years thugs would've taken a hell of a lot more shots at him.

Bertuzzi tried to fight Moore in that game but Moore didn't want any part of it. Which is cowardly ONLY because of what he did to Naslund, he knew Bert wanted to settle the score for Moore's actions. If Moore would've dropped the gloves against Bert there's no way Bertuzzi would've still hit him from behind. I'm not excusing Bert from what he did, but still.
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Old 11-05-2005, 08:06 PM   #27
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I know Bert wanted to scrap earlier, still - punching someone when they're looking is different than the cowardly approach of punching them from behind. You punch someone in the face (not from behind), on the ice, they're gonna scrap w/ you. And as far as McSorley - I don't think he's as tuff as you think. Are you saying EVERYONE in the NHL was afraid of him?
That's why no one took a shot at Greztky?
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Old 12-15-2005, 09:55 AM   #28
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No mater what you say about Bertuzi, his sister is real hot!!! I know, i use to work with her!!! LOL!
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
I am exactly saying nobody took Gretzky's head off because of the enforcers and protection around him. Who the hell would want to get in a scrap with McSorley when he played for the Oilers, the man had insane intensity and let it be known that if you try to take out the best player on the team your next. Greztky excelled because of his talent, but if there wasn't solid protection for him in his early years thugs would've taken a hell of a lot more shots at him.

Bertuzzi tried to fight Moore in that game but Moore didn't want any part of it. Which is cowardly ONLY because of what he did to Naslund, he knew Bert wanted to settle the score for Moore's actions. If Moore would've dropped the gloves against Bert there's no way Bertuzzi would've still hit him from behind. I'm not excusing Bert from what he did, but still.

This brings back some memories for me: Remember back in 1989 when Chris Chelios, then with Montreal, roughed up Brian Propp of the Flyers in the Stanley Cup semifinals, and Flyers goalie Ron Hextall retaliated against Chelios in the final minute of the sixth game (which Montreal won to win the series)? Hextall was then suspended for the first ten games of the 1989-90 season, but Chelios was not disciplined at all - not even a fine - for what he did to Propp.

It's just like how baseball handles brush-back pitches: Protect the instigator.
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